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The Kiss from a Bangel shipper's perspective...
AOQ wrote about The Kiss, and it gives a very good look into his mind. Also it's one of the most calm and balanced things I've ever read on the subject.
Lore wrote:
Honestly, Joss forced Buffy back into the role of the star struck little girl with a crush on her dark knight and the only way I can get through that scene is to see it as Buffy kindly and finally letting go of Angel once and for all with no intention of ever hooking up with him ever again.
AOQ replied:
You're missing the whole point of the sequence, then. In EOD Buffy sees Angel as the sixteen-year-old in her still imagines him to be; I thought that bit was overdone, but that's clearly what they're going for. In "Chosen" she takes a second to bask and pretend that things are still simple, then pulls away, acutely aware that they're not.
Michael Ikeda's posts on the topic say most of what I want to say about it. But just as a look into the mind of a B/A fan (i.e. me), I think that summary is accurate... except for the "no intention" thing. They have such deep feelings for each other, and the passion and trust they developed when they were both (emotionally speaking) much younger is something that they'll never put aside. But that same intensity has prevented them from being able to step back and move into a more adult relationship ("Forever" is a good example of what I'm talking about). Although Buffy's not in a relationship with him per se, Spike's in her heart now, and understands her in a way her previous lovers haven't. Buffy and Angel are wrong for each other for several reasons that are far more important than the initial Forbidden Love stuff, and it can probably never happen. Fans and characters alike have been forced to face that fact. But one can never quite bear to give up hope... maybe with a little more time, they'll change enough that things will somehow be different...
-AOQ
Lore wrote:
Honestly, Joss forced Buffy back into the role of the star struck little girl with a crush on her dark knight and the only way I can get through that scene is to see it as Buffy kindly and finally letting go of Angel once and for all with no intention of ever hooking up with him ever again.
AOQ replied:
You're missing the whole point of the sequence, then. In EOD Buffy sees Angel as the sixteen-year-old in her still imagines him to be; I thought that bit was overdone, but that's clearly what they're going for. In "Chosen" she takes a second to bask and pretend that things are still simple, then pulls away, acutely aware that they're not.
Michael Ikeda's posts on the topic say most of what I want to say about it. But just as a look into the mind of a B/A fan (i.e. me), I think that summary is accurate... except for the "no intention" thing. They have such deep feelings for each other, and the passion and trust they developed when they were both (emotionally speaking) much younger is something that they'll never put aside. But that same intensity has prevented them from being able to step back and move into a more adult relationship ("Forever" is a good example of what I'm talking about). Although Buffy's not in a relationship with him per se, Spike's in her heart now, and understands her in a way her previous lovers haven't. Buffy and Angel are wrong for each other for several reasons that are far more important than the initial Forbidden Love stuff, and it can probably never happen. Fans and characters alike have been forced to face that fact. But one can never quite bear to give up hope... maybe with a little more time, they'll change enough that things will somehow be different...
-AOQ
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And it's funny how people really see things in different ways. My sister (who loathes S/B and A/B equally) thought that "Chosen" ended with Buffy and Angel riding to the sunset together - in fact, she saw the cookie dough speech as Buffy proposing to Angel. She agreed to rewatch the episode only after I assured her that, no, Buffy and Angel did not end up married.
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Heeee! There's an icon I've seen that has the text 'Cookie dough is code for brush off'. Also of course AtS S5 makes sure that they're not even friends anymore - and ends with Angel signing away the shanshu. Kinda hard to work things out after that...
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When a woman tells you she's not ready or that she needs time to "bake," it never, ever means that she really just needs time to grow. It always means that she's letting you down easy. Likewise with "let's be friends."
There are certain time-worn and well known expressions of feeling that you learn from experience, usually as a much-rejected teenage male, and the baking thing is an absolute classic.
The Chosen prospects for Spike/Buffy aren't much better, of course, even had he survived.
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As for Buffy, then I doubt she'll ever have a relationship that'll be 'normal' (and The Immortal is sort of proof of that), so I think Spike is probably her best bet!)
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As for Spike, I didn't say I don't like them together, just that I felt Chosen wasn't at all a promising spuffy moment, even without the flamy death.
The Immortal is jsut proof of ... well, I still have to finish that fic.
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Bwahahahaha! How do you feel about buying beer for the whole B/A community?
Chosen wasn't at all a promising spuffy moment
Chosen was about how Buffy wasn't going to make *any* big relatiosnhip decisions right then, so it doesn't bother me overmuch.
I still have to finish that fic.
I still need like 10 more hours in the day before I have time to read fic... *sigh*
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I'm really looking forward to seeing what he says when he gets to AtS S5!
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He's an incredibly insighful guy - except the fact that he hates 'Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered', but no one's perfect! *g*
It made sense to me.
Me too. I felt bad for Spike, but (apart from behaving like 12-year-olds), both vampires behaved remarkably mature. I liked that.
(And S/B/A is the logical route to go if you like all three! I *love* your icon!)
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AOQ spoke my thoughts! Except with better wording and explaining, but I did notice the change in Buffy's attitude after the kiss finished, which is in Chosen!! *g*
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He apparently spoke a lot of people's thoughts! :)
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Same here. (And S/B/A is of course the logical way to go... *g*)
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Me too! :)
to know a B/A shipper made the same interpretation, and to read such insightful analysis that doesn't disrespect any characters or minimize their shared history.
Amazing, isn't it? Here are some more of his thoughts that I assembled. :)
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Maybe once he watches it, he'll come to that conclusion as well.
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Agreed. And AOQ admits that the chance is miniscule, but like a good shipper he keeps hold of that teeny chance. ;)
But more than anything, whilst Buffy gets to have a real life at the end of her series, Angel never will. His story is that he'll always keep fighting... which I'm sure AOQ will realise in time.
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I think that considering B/A relationship "immature" for several reasons doesn't affect a crucial (and tender) love story for both of the characters.
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My position is basically that if you try to pretend that what Angel and Buffy had wasn't important, you devalue both characters immensely. I don't ship them (they just don't hit my buttons), but the impact they had on each other was immense.
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