Some thoughts on AtS S5

[elisi]

Feeling tired and blah today, mostly because I’ve picked up a cold! Went to see the doctor today, and found out that the baby’s due on the 27th of September. And that’s about it as RL life happenings go... life is slow, but at least I got the house tidied (mostly) on sunday.

Anyway, before everyone leaves out of boredom, husband and I watched ‘Hellbound’ last night, and I was inspired to write down some s5 Angel thoughts that have been nagging me since... oh, the summer? Just a bit of continuity and some parallels that I figured other people might like too.



I love Darla’s s2 arch, especially ‘The Trial’. That moment at the end, when Angel’s ready to turn her - the one thing he refused to do, even when she begged him - and then her saying no, the fact that he cares is enough... *sniffle*. But this exchange made me wonder:

The Trial
ANGEL:  "Maybe it would be different.  -  We don't know. - Maybe, uh... because, you know, I have a soul - if-if I did bite you..."
DARLA:  "No."
ANGEL:  "We don't know what it would do to you."

And then in “Why We Fight’ that question was answered - what happens when a souled vampire sires someone. Does the soul make a difference?

Why We Fight
ANGEL: “You're the only one I ever did this to...after I got a soul.”
LAWSON: “Do I have one, too?”
ANGEL: (blinks, looks aside) “I don't think it works that way, son.”
LAWSON: “Didn't think so.”
---
LAWSON: (looking up at Angel while getting to his feet) “You gave me just enough, didn't you? Enough of your soul to keep me trapped between who I was and who I should be. I'm nothin'... because of you.”

It makes me so happy that the soul does make a difference, but also makes me think - what would Darla have been like if Angel had sired her?

(And I know Spike sired loads of people in S7 and they seemed as evil as all other vampires, but I think that The First probably managed to bypass the soul just as it did the chip.)
ETA: Go read the threads started by superplin and danceswithwords to see better and more coherent arguments.

*******

When I first watched ‘Not Fade Away’ there was one sentence that particularly jumped out at me in that I’ve-heard-that-somewhere-else way:

Not Fade Away
WESLEY: “There is no perfect day for me, Illyria. There is no sunset or painting or finely-aged scotch that's going to sum up my life and make tonight any... There is nothing that I want.”

After a while I remembered. It was from ‘To Shanshu in LA’ when Wesley thinks that ‘shanshu’ means ‘death’ and Angel greets this news with nothing more than a shrug:

To Shanshu in LA
WESLEY:  "Angel's cut off.  Death doesn't bother him because - there is nothing in life he wants!  It's our desires that make us human."

How sad that Wesley ends up as cut off from life as Angel - that death was probably a relief.

**********

Now about ‘Hellbound’. First I want to say that I love this episode. I know people complain about Spike being written as stupid in s5, but here he works out what Pavayne is doing and how to beat him all by himself, and also proves Angel wrong. Angel’s a pessimist, but although Spike is possibly rivalling him in the depressed stakes at the time, Spike doesn’t accept defeat.

There are so many things that I could discuss, but for now I’ll go with just one thing - how Spike in this episode is very, very similar to Cordy in ‘Rm w/a vu’. Both characters seemed ‘off’ in the first few episodes of the season in which they appeared. Cordy having lost her money and prestige, Spike being a ghost (having lost himself in a sense).

Now the thing is, that both these characters are pulled down as far as possible - and then they suddenly spring back. And the interesting thing is, that it’s a final insult - something meant to break them - that they grab and claim as their strength. Let me illustrate:

Rm w/a vu
MAUDE:  “You better be sorry, you stupid little bitch.”
CORDY: (She stops crying and slowly looks up at Maude):  “I’m a bitch.”
MAUDE:  “Take off the bed sheets, make a noose.  Go on.  It’ll all be over soon.”
CORDY (she slowly gets up and looks Maude in the eye):  “I’m not a snivelling whiny little Cry-Buffy.  I’m the nastiest girl in Sunnydale history.  -  I take crap from no one.”
MAUDE:  “You are going to make yourself a noose and put it around..”
CORDY:  “Back off!  Polygrip.  -  You think *you’re* bad?  Being all mean and haunty?   Picking on poor pathetic Cordy?  Well, get ready to haul your wrinkly translucent ass out of this place, because lady, the bitch is back.”
MAUDE:  “Do you think that I’m going to take that from trash like you?”
CORDY:  “I tell you what I think.  I think that you’re going to pack your little ghost bags and get the HELL OUT OF MY HOUSE!”

Hellbound
PAVAYNE: “Yes, squirm, boy. It won't make a difference. Getting what you deserve.”
SPIKE: “You're right. I do deserve to go to hell. But not today”.
(Spike squirms free and knocks Pavayne off of him. Spike stands, and Pavayne is on the floor on his back looking at Spike.)
PAVAYNE: “You dare!”
SPIKE: (as Spike stands, the portal behind him closes) ”Quite a bit, mate. Reality bends to desire. That was it, right? That's why I could touch Fred, write your name in the glass. All I had to do was want it bad enough. (Spike looks down at his naked body and clothing appears on him again) And guess what I want to do now, you prissy son of a bitch!”

Cordy revels in being the meanest girl in town. Spike affirms that yes he deserves to go to hell. But when it comes to these two no one else is going to tell them what to do or who they are! They are comfortable with themselves, flaws and all - and who's to say that a flaw can't be your strength? This is one of the reasons that we love these characters. They speak their mind and give as good as they get!

But now my brain is turning to mush and I keep misspelling words, so I think I’d better stop. I hope you found at least some of this worth your time.

Comments

[annabelle528.livejournal.com]

Very interesting! It's always fun to go back and look at parallels because there are so many of them.

what would Darla have been like if Angel had sired her?

Now I'm wondering about that too. We saw what happened when she was carrying Connor and his soul started rubbing off on her. Would that effect have been magnified if Angel had sired her?

[elisi]

I love parallels - so much so that my husband has banned me talking about them! ;)

Would that effect have been magnified if Angel had sired her?

I hadn't even thought about that! Now I'll be thinking about it all day...

[superplin.livejournal.com]

Ooh, parallels! Finding them is one of the best parts of rewatching old episodes, I think.

I'm not sure I believe that the soul does make a difference in siring, though. My impression (and I must mull on this a bit more) is that Lawson wants to believe it made a difference, because he wants to blame Angel for his unhappiness.

I guess I'm not sure I buy that the First could bypass the soul the way it does the chip. The chip is activated by intent, and what the First obviously does is remove any intent on Spike's part, taking away his free will through hypnotic suggestion and subjugating him to its own. The soul, though, isn't "activated" per se, it's just there, suffusing every part of the manpire's being. It's not something physiological (or even pseudo-physiological, like the chip), so it doesn't seem to me that it's something that could be passed on through a physical process like siring. (Although of course siring is beyond physical as well, even though it involves that whole big sucking thing.)

It really comes down to a discussion of Jossverse metaphysics, doesn't it? As usual, the question is "what is the soul." A topic I love to discuss, even though it's not definitively answerable, at all.

(Wow, sorry for rambling on at such length in your comments!)

[elisi]

Don't apologise for rambling! That's what LJ's are for! Or at least, that's what mine is for! :)

And so many interesting points...

Lawson wants to believe it made a difference

Oh, I think that very true. Which is why the Darla-problem is so intruiging... how would that knowledge have affected her? When she rises after having been sired by Dru, she's furious about having had her 'second chance' taken away...

Ok, now my head is beginning to hurt.

Re. Spike, having thought about it some more in the light of what you wrote, I think that the knowledge of the soul by the person being sired is probably what makes the difference. Spike as controlled by The First is essentially like s2 Spike - even in s5 and s6 he's slowly developing some sort of moral compass (in Smashed f.ex. when he's trying to talk himself into biting the girl - does he want to bite her or does he want to want to bite her?) and would not do the casual killing and siring that he does in s7.

It really comes down to a discussion of Jossverse metaphysics, doesn't it?

It does indeed - why do I post stuff when I'm full of cold and can't think straight?

[danceswithwords.livejournal.com]

(Following you up, since you referenced this reply...)

I think that the knowledge of the soul by the person being sired is probably what makes the difference.

I can't see how the knowledge would make a difference one way or another. Although canon is occasionally muddy and contradictory about metaphysics, it's pretty clear that the soul disappears during the siring process, leaving the new vampire soulless and therefore completely unwilling to control evil impulses. Why would knowledge that he was sired by someone with a soul cause a new vampire to desire to control those evil impulses? That desire itself is, in the Jossverse, a symptom of the soul.

Spike's change of attitude during seasons 5 and 6 is learned behavior, the process of him internalizing someone else's moral compass and trying to make it his own--as well as having lived around humans long enough to develop some natural empathy for him. I distinguish that from developing his own moral compass, which I don't actually think he did in canon without the soul. (I think he could have, and up until the beginning of S6 was written in such a way that it was possible in canon, but the writers chose a different path.)

[elisi]

Why would knowledge that he was sired by someone with a soul cause a new vampire to desire to control those evil impulses?

No idea! Dumbo's feather? No, it's all pure speculation... I just became intrigued wondering if Darla would have been any different if Angel had sired her? I think too much.

I think he could have, and up until the beginning of S6 was written in such a way that it was possible in canon, but the writers chose a different path.

The main problem being, that the person he was looking to for guidance - Buffy - was in no state to show him what was right and wrong in s6. Maybe if she hadn't come back, he would have developed some sort of moral compass with Dawn's help?

[danceswithwords.livejournal.com]

It makes me so happy that the soul does make a difference, but also makes me think - what would Darla have been like if Angel had sired her?

I really don't think this is the case. What I took from "Why We Fight" was just that Lawson was an extremely unhappy vampire because of a tendency towards angst in his personality, and that he was grasping for reasons why he was different from other vampires. Kind of like a teenager going through a hard time.

As you mentioned, Spike sired a ton of people in S7 without imparting any soul to them. It doesn't make sense to me, though, that that's because the First "bypassed" the soul. The soul was a part of him; he had it when he was siring those people just as he had it when he was finished. What the First was bypassing was Spike's consciousness, his ability to control his own actions. Bypassing a soul and bypassing a chip are two very different things. The chip seemed to operate on intent, and the First had definitely removed Spike's ability to have intent of his own.

[elisi]

Oh, I meant to change the bit about 'bypassing' the soul... superplin raised a lot of your questions too, and honestly that sentence was just written as a tiny cold-induced brain wave that doesn't hold together very well.

Re. Lawson - I think he was looking for a reason, something other than just the kill. Angelus of course thought killing an art - Spike just had fun. Most vampires were probably too stupid to ever look for any sort of meaning. Actually, Lawson was probably a lot like Riley - he fell apart with out a mission.

And I think that you're definitely right about Spike and the soul thing - actually, see my response to superplin, because I'd just be repeating myself.

Anyway, will go edit the bit that makes no sense.

[danceswithwords.livejournal.com]

Lawson was probably a lot like Riley - he fell apart with out a mission.

I think this is exactly right, and it's echoed nicely in the episode title.

[elisi]

it's echoed nicely in the episode title.

Good point!

[ladycat713.livejournal.com]

Thier flaws is one of the reasons I like the characters and also the reason I like S/B and C/A but hate B/A. Buffy and Angel both have idealized views of each other , they either don't acknowledge the flaws in each other or they've spent so little time with each other (even when living in the same town) that they didn't see them. Perfection is boring as hell. The inability (or lack of desire ) to see each others flaws is also the reason why anything between the core scoobies would never work (like B/X) . The scoobies also got a bad habit of not admitting to thier own flaws (aka living in Denial Land) and they don't endear themselves to us nearly as much

[elisi]

Their flaws is one of the reasons I like the characters and also the reason I like S/B and C/A but hate B/A.

Oh, those are my feelings exactly. Buffy and Spike (and Cordy and Angel) love each other even though they are perfectly aware of each others flaws (see Buffy's speech to Spike in NLM and Spike's to Buffy in Touched. They know each other's weaknesses very well indeed.) And perfection is most certainly boring!!!

[fishsanwitt]

September 27th? That's the day after Linda Hamilton's birthday - she's my favourite actress - sorry, I just had to get that in :)

I really enjoyed your post. I liked the comparison you did as well. I have many issues with S5 of ANGEL because I *do* believe they wrote Spike, this smart, saavy, sensitive and intuitive man, as an idiot. It's over now, though. I have to move on :) which is why I liked your post. You reminded me that Spike was smart enough to figure out Pavane's intent. Thank you!

[elisi]

Oh, I'm happy that I cheered you up! :) And I'm sure you've read thedeadlyhook's Dude, where's my soul?, but that cheered me up immensely!

[skylee.livejournal.com]

I love those parallels you pointed out. I don't exactly like Spike-on-AtS in S5, but I loved all the non-Spike parts of AtS S5 and enjoyed it immensely, does that make sense? I just don't think they handled Spike's character very well, especially in the middle part of S5. Episodes like Hell Bound though, there's my Spike. :)

[elisi]

I think Spike is an incredibly complicated character to write, so I'm not surprised that the AtS writers found him difficult. Of course Steven S. de Knight used to be a Buffy writer and could therefore write the 'real' Spike! :)

And I'm such a sucker for parallels.

[yourlibrarian]

Some nice parallels, especially the one with Wesley and Angel. Sad to think that's the journey Wes took.

[elisi]

Sad to think that's the journey Wes took.

Isn't it? But I think that that line was put there deliberately, and that Wesley was ready to die. *sniffle* (I love this icon!)

[lillianmorgan.livejournal.com]

Some wonderful parallels - especially the Wes one - thanks for pointing them out.
The Spike/Cordelia thing has been running through the show for a while - well at least if you believe JM's interview on the BtVS S4 specials. Spike was brought in to S4 to be the guy who comically told Buffy things couldn't be done, like Cordelia had done S1-3. But then the writers found they had Anya and so Spike had to change again.
What kinda saddened me about Spike and Cordelia was that they were well loved characters who did get ever so slightly shafted by ME. And the writers linking them in the different plotlines like this makes me a little nervous and suspicious.....
But then you say They are comfortable with themselves, flaws and all - and who's to say that a flaw can't be your strength? LOL! Thanks for allaying my nervousness.
V. glad to hear that the doctor's visit went well - ::hugs:: for the general flooeyness....

[elisi]

I nearly mentioned the 'Spike was brought in to replace Cordelia' thing, but was too tired. And what is it with Xander and outspoken women?

I'm glad you liked my flaws-line! It's the thing that I particularly liked about those scenes... that the characters embrace the insults and turn them on their heads! :)

And I like your way with words - flooeyness!! It's now part of my vocabulary! ::hugs back::