elisi | A request and some B/A thoughts.

Current Music: Mandy. Because it's pretty. :)

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buffy has taken over my brain

A request and some B/A thoughts.

Can anyone recommend to me an Angel vid set to ‘Mandy’, with Buffy as Mandy, but non-shippy?

*listens to crickets chirping*

The thing is, that ‘Mandy’ belongs to AtS. Angel liked the song *years* before he met Buffy, and he sang it after he’d left her. It is their perfect song - or rather his perfect song about him and what he found in her.

Lyrics:

I remember all my life
Raining down as cold as ice
A shadow of a man
A face through a window
Crying in the night
The night goes into

Morning, just another day
Happy people pass my way
Looking in their eyes
I see a memory
I never realized
you made me so happy, oh Mandy

Well you came and you gave without taking
but I sent you away, oh Mandy
well you kissed me and stopped me from shaking
I need you today, oh Mandy

I'm standing on the edge of time
I Walked away when love was mine
Caught up in a world of uphill climbing
The tears are in my mind
And nothing is rhyming, oh Mandy

Well you came and you gave without taking
but I sent you away, oh Mandy
well you kissed me and stopped me from shaking
And I need you today, oh Mandy

Yesterday's a dream I face the morning
Crying on the breeze
the pain is calling, oh Mandy

Well you came and you gave without taking
but I sent you away, oh Mandy
well you kissed me and stopped me from shaking
And I need you today, oh Mandy

Watching S3 I’ve found myself rather warming to B/A. Not in a relationship way, but in that I can perfectly understand where both characters are coming from. To speak just of Angel for now, then he knows right from the start that it can never work (I walked away when love was mine). There is no way they’ll ever get to be together forever, because he is just a shadow of a man, standing on the edge of time (sorry, couldn't help myself) and she’s a little girl... and yet, he clings on. In S3 I think he’s trying to pretend that he’s paused time. He knows he should walk away, but right there in his arms is Buffy - and she’s beautiful and good and pure, and everything he’s never had before - and she loves him. I can see why he stays. Oh yes.

So that’s part of what I’d like to see in a vid - the sense of Angel being utterly alone before meeting her, and yet dreaming of having a ‘Mandy’ of his own. And then when he finds her, he knows that he’s going to walk away sooner or later, no matter how much he tries to pretend otherwise - before finally looking back, grateful, but longing still.

The song beautifully evokes the inherent tragedy in B/A, which I like very much:

ANGEL
Look . . . this can't . . .

BUFFY
I know, ever be anything. For one
thing you're like two hundred and
twenty-four years older than I am.

ANGEL
I just gotta . . . I gotta walk away
from this.

BUFFY
I know. Me, too.

Now what I don’t like is the break up scene in ‘The Prom’. Grrrr. Everyone is going behind Buffy’s back and treating her like a silly little girl who needs ‘her man’ to do ‘what’s best for her’. *sporks them all* I want to reach through the screen and slap Angel about, reminding him that she broke up with him first!!!!! It was only half a year ago, did everyone catch amnesia? She told him, as plain as can be “What I want from you I can never have.” Well he should have acted on it then. (As I said I rather like him in S3, and all the set-up for AtS is very good. But that the break up is just awful!) /end rant

*sigh*

Just to mention Darcy for a moment: I was saying something about how now Angel could take off for his nice new spin-off and actually begin to get interesting and stuff. Darcy doesn’t see it that way. For him the joy of Angel is to watch him being utterly pathetic - because it’s funny. Which is why AtS doesn't do all that much for him...

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Xandra had made an amazing one about Angel and Darla, but she took down her site sadly *pouts*

I've searched in www.buffyvids.com and found two but sadly both sites are down :(

I looked on www.buffyvids.com too, and dismissed the 'it's got lots of kissing lol' one straight away, tracked down the new site for the other one, but it really wasn't very good. *sigh*

I want something meaningful, not 'B/A4evaomg'!

Xandra's Mandy video is very good. There was a hint of Bangel there, but it's mostly Angel/Darla.

Now what I don’t like is the break up scene in ‘The Prom’. Grrrr. Everyone is going behind Buffy’s back and treating her like a silly little girl who needs ‘her man’ to do ‘what’s best for her’. *sporks them all* I want to reach through the screen and slap Angel about, reminding him that she broke up with him first!!!!! It was only half a year ago, did everyone catch amnesia? She told him, as plain as can be “What I want from you I can never have.” Well he should have acted on it then. (As I said I rather like him in S3, and all the set-up for AtS is very good. But that the break up is just awful!) /end rant

Awww, I think you're a little hard on Angel. I think from the beginning he realized that it was doomed, but then he was all "Hey, I love her, she loves me, why wreck this?" And then goes the Bangel love story, ruined by Angelus coming, then when Angel came back from hell, there was uncertainty between the two, then (I don't really remember S3) Angel and Buffy decided to start their relationship over again. It was until The Mayor reminded Angel of his fears during the early eps of S2, a relationship between a human and a vampire is doomed. These fears were deepened by Joyce's feelings towards that ship.

I find Angel's decision to leave very wise and selfless. I had a lot of respect for him when he made that decision. I think Angel was the only character who decided to leave his partner and not only way right about it, but did it in the right time.

Many characters in the show decided to leave. Some were right about it but all of them chose the wrong time to leave. Giles (Tabula Rasa) Xander (Hell's Bells) Oz (Wild At Heart) Riley (Into the Woods) Tara (Tabula Rasa) had left their loved ones but did it unwisely, in a wrong time, which led to a lot of damage to the people they love even though their intentions in leaving were good, and quite selfish in Giles and Oz' parts. Tara and Riley left for their benefit and not for their lovers' benefit, and I don't fault them for that. If a relationship doesn't work out for you, you have every right to leave. Spike also left Buffy in Seeing Red when things got rough, but I'm not sure if it did Buffy any damage like when it happened with Giles and Riley.

I find Angel's decision to leave very wise and selfless.
I'm not disputing that as such. It's obvious that he should leave. But Buffy broke up with him in 'Lovers Walk' and he plain didn't accept it. So I think what I wish, is when Buffy (in The Prom) said "I don't care about that!" (meaning children, sex, a boyfriend who doesn't set on fire in sunlight etc), he could have answered: "Yes you do. You told me so yourself and you were right."

It's the fact that he forces the issue with no discussion that annoys me so. He does the same thing (but worse) in IWRY, and it makes me go grrr. Of course it's entirely consistent with the character and (in its way) very selfless. But - as Tara said: "But you don't get to decide what is better for us, Will. We're in a relationship, we are supposed to decide together."

I understand Angel, and how hard it is for him, but he has a serious superiority complex.

But Buffy broke up with him in 'Lovers Walk' and he plain didn't accept it. So I think what I wish, is when Buffy (in The Prom) said "I don't care about that!" (meaning children, sex, a boyfriend who doesn't set on fire in sunlight etc), he could have answered: "Yes you do. You told me so yourself and you were right."

My memory of S3 is very fuzzy... (Actually my memory of Bangel is very fuzzy, when I watch the high school years, I skip Bangel because the Core Four, Xandelia and Willoz stuff are more fun to watch) but I read the script. I think Angel sees Buffy as a little girl. He's in love with her, he'd sacrifice his life for her, but to him, she's just a teenage girl with highschool girl's fantisies. And she is. To some extent. The way she babbles about the prom, the way she jokes sometimes... Angel is old, heart and age. He doesn't get her child-like behavior like boys her age.

That probably was the reason Bangel didn't work like Spuffy. I'm not sure Spuffy would have worked in high school years just as much as I'm not sure if Bangel worked in the later seasons. But relationship wise, Bangel was healthier but Spuffy worked better because mind and heart Buffy and Spike were in the same line.

It's the fact that he forces the issue with no discussion that annoys me so. He does the same thing (but worse) in IWRY, and it makes me go grrr. Of course it's entirely consistent with the character and (in its way) very selfless. But - as Tara said: "But you don't get to decide what is better for us, Will. We're in a relationship, we are supposed to decide together."

It also goes with his thinking of Buffy as a little girl who can't think rationally. If I remember their relationship correctly, I remember Angel being baffled by Buffy talking about teenage stuff, having a young girl's look on life, which made him make decisions without talking to her. Though the difference between Angel and Willow (I assume Tara's speech is about Willow's little forgetting spell in All The Way) is that Angel made these decisions from a rational, selfless way of thinking, while Willow's choices are more selfish and childish.

I understand Angel, and how hard it is for him, but he has a serious superiority complex.

Which is something he has in common with Buffy *winks* I remember when Buffy made Xander's decisions for him (The Zeppo and End of Days) and her intentions are pretty much like Angel's.

Except she told Xander her reasons for thinking the way she did and he had the choice to accept them or not. Also, they were never in a relationship like Willow/Tara and Buffy/Angel. The circumstances aren't comparable, especially since Buffy was, in fact, the leader.

Angel just flat-out didn't think she was capable of making the decision in the first place. That's sexism, no two ways about it. He saw her, pursued her, manipulated his way into her life, slept with her (she was mature enough to make *that* decision, funnily enough), then continually pursued her after that. It's exemplified in one exchange: "Are you still my girl?" Why ask her that if he knew it was doomed? To keep her on a string, of course, not unlike Drusilla. And the smugness in Yoko Factor, the having her followed at the end of the series...

Except she told Xander her reasons for thinking the way she did

In The Zeppo? I don't think so, she hadn't told him she didn't want him around because he'll get hurt, she sent him away with a lie. Same as in End of Days, while it's clear that Buffy only trusted Xander with Dawn, her major reason for him to leave was so he won't get hurt "This place isn't for either of you"

he had the choice to accept them or not

Sure, but he's so damn loyal to her that he'll do whatever she says *winks* except when he thinks it's not right.

Also, they were never in a relationship like Willow/Tara and Buffy/Angel. The circumstances aren't comparable, especially since Buffy was, in fact, the leader.

I agree. Okay, another example: How about when she broke up with Spike in As You Were?

Angel just flat-out didn't think she was capable of making the decision in the first place. That's sexism, no two ways about it. He saw her, pursued her, manipulated his way into her life, slept with her (she was mature enough to make *that* decision, funnily enough), then continually pursued her after that. It's exemplified in one exchange: "Are you still my girl?" Why ask her that if he knew it was doomed? To keep her on a string, of course, not unlike Drusilla. And the smugness in Yoko Factor, the having her followed at the end of the series...

I don't think it's that way. Sure, he thought she was a kid, but he was also as confused as her. He wanted her, but he knew it was wrong, yet he forgot all about it to be with her, until The Mayor spoke about it bringing back Angel's previous fears. I don't think he manipulated her or anything like that, he was a vampire in love, he thought about it rationally at first, then the strength of that love between him and Buffy along with Willow's speech made him ignore his fears and try to begin a relationship with Buffy.

Angel's attitude in The Yoko Factor is no more childish than Buffy's on AtS. Angel came back to apologize about kicking her out (when IMO she's the one who should give that apology because of the harsh speech she told him in his home) and when he saw Riley, he acted like a jealous idiot, but in the end he apologized. And that makes him good in my book. ~_^

I was only annoyed by Angel's actions towards Buffy in Chosen and then his possessive attitude in AtS season five. Before that, I thought he was a decent guy.

Yeah, you're right about in The Zeppo. But again, the dynamic isn't the same as a relationship, IMO. I can't hold that against her any more than I can hold 'The Lie' against him.

Same as in End of Days, while it's clear that Buffy only trusted Xander with Dawn, her major reason for him to leave was so he won't get hurt "This place isn't for either of you"

I think you might be defeating your own argument in that one. If he's so damned loyal except when he disagrees...that means he agreed with her not to be there, right? There was no subterfuge there. Heck, he called her on it.

How about when she broke up with Spike in As You Were?

That's not the same situation, either. Buffy totally takes the blame for everything, doesn't even hold the eggs against him. There's no 'for your own good' or anything of the sort, she says she's doing it for herself. She willingly takes the bad guy role, wholly deserved or not. If Angel had stated that he was leaving her for things *she* couldn't give him, I would've thought more of it. But he basically says everything she's willing to give up to be with him isn't enough, and that irks me to no end.

Well, I wouldn't call her actions on AtS childish so much as human. After all, if he'd have come back and found Buffy and Wesley snuggling up after the Connor incident, I doubt he'd have responded all that well, either. My argument isn't that Buffy didn't act badly/naive sometimes, it's just that he's not any better. And yet he claims to be more capable of making decisions regarding them than she is. *That's* my principle issue with the relationship.

his possessive attitude in AtS season five. Before that, I thought he was a decent guy.

Yeah, but that possessive attitude was always there. Well, except when he was with her. He only seems to act like that when she's with someone else, Yoko Factor, as you exampled. Again, shades of Dru.

Yeah, you're right about in The Zeppo. But again, the dynamic isn't the same as a relationship, IMO. I can't hold that against her any more than I can hold 'The Lie' against him.

It's not the same as in a realtionship, I agree. I see Buffy and Xander's lies are done for the sake of friendship, both took the choice from the other, Buffy took the choice of fighting from Xander, Xander took the choice of Buffy to stall from her. All for good intentions. But still both took the choices from each other.

I think you might be defeating your own argument in that one. If he's so damned loyal except when he disagrees...that means he agreed with her not to be there, right? There was no subterfuge there. Heck, he called her on it.

I don't really think he wanted to take Dawn away and miss the fight. He only did it out of loyalty and love for Buffy and Dawn. What he really wanted was to fight with his friends. Buffy had lied to Xander to get him to leave, she didn't want him to hurt, so she was all "You're my strength, I only trust you." Of all the core four, she probably trusts Xander the most by the end of S7 (the hand squeeze she gave him in Chosen as they walked together, along with having him fight with Dawn), but I still believe her main reason is to get Xander and Dawn out of harm's way. Maybe also have Xander raise Dawn if Buffy didn't make it. But you're probably right. If he didn't want to go, he'd stay. I think this scene is more of Buffy taking Dawn's choice from her than Xander.

And yet he claims to be more capable of making decisions regarding them than she is. *That's* my principle issue with the relationship.

I agree. With Bangel, Angel saw Buffy as a child, sure, he was in love with her, but she was a child who can't make her own decisions to him.

Both Buffy and Angel acted childish after the break up. Buffy's reason for her attitude was her issues with Faith. Angel's reasons for his attitude was jealousy because Buffy had told him "I have someone in my life now. That I love. It's not what you and I had. It's very new. You know what makes it new? I trust him. I know him."

What bugged me was when Angel said "That was your idea, remember? We stay away from each other." I thought that was Angel's idea. Heh.

You're obviously a lot more anti-Angel than I. ;) I don't see the manipulation at all - I see a guy in love for the first time in 200+ years and too weak to walk away until he is prodded by everyone.

That's not to say that he's perfect - he refuses to accept Buffy's break-up in 'Lovers Walk' initially, and the way he makes decisions for both of them because he thinks he has to is not very nice.

That said, the "Are you still my girl?" comes after pretending to be Angelus to see if Faith really has working for the Mayor, and Buffy was seriously wigged after the all the smooches. She needed 'some space' and Angel was desperate to know that their relationship wasn't broken - or rather, that her love hadn't gone away.

See, I don't know if I'm anti-Angel really so much as I don't really see how his actions add up to how they're presented. If his story was left at S3, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but the more they added to his story, the more cynical I see him in regards to Buffy. Ret-Con or not, it's still Con.

As far as manipulative goes... Well, I'm not sure the word isn't too strong. He sees her as a little girl, obviously. Yet he plays up the dark, brooding stranger that is a common fantasy in youngsters of both genders, doesn't tell her he's a vamp and flat-out lied about killing people. If any of the last two had been brought up in the first few eps of S1, B/A is nowhere and I think he's aware of that. I'd buy that he was in love with her except that we're led to believe that he knew it was doomed from the start... I don't know. I just really don't.

Angel was desperate to know that their relationship wasn't broken - or rather, that her love hadn't gone away.

Exactly. It was the perfect opportunity for an out and he didn't take it. Not that different than, as you said, his refusal to accept her opinion in Lover's Walk. To me, that withering ending on somewhat mutual ground would've been better than 'Your sacrifices mean nothing, I'm leaving. That's it.'

but the more they added to his story, the more cynical I see him in regards to Buffy. Ret-Con or not, it's still Con.
Ah yes, once Angel gets greyer on his own show, it reflects badly back on him. But I think what Buffy did was to teach him how to live in the world... Joss once said that BtVS was about becoming, and AtS about dealing with what you'd become. I like that a lot.

I don't know. I just really don't.
Well they both try to walk away, just never at the same time. But the biggest obstacle as far as I can see is that they just don't understand each other. Buffy has no clue what's going on in Angel's head (she says this several times in S3) and Angel really can't fathom where Buffy is coming from. Which I think is where the 'Are you still my girl' comes from. He really can't tell.

Having just watched 'Never Leave Me' the frankness and honesty between Spike & Buffy yet again makes me *so* happy! Silly Angel. We will speak of him no more!

I find Angel's decision to leave very wise and selfless. I had a lot of respect for him when he made that decision.
Hmmmm. Except this is what Buffy told him in 'Lovers Walk':

Buffy: I'm not coming back.
Angel just looks at her.
Buffy: We're not friends. We never were. And I can fool Giles, and I can fool my friends, but I can't fool myself. (shakes her head) Or Spike, for some reason. What I want from you I can never have. You don't need me to take care of you anymore. So I'm gonna go.
Angel: I don't accept that.
Buffy: You have to.
Angel: How can...
He takes a step toward her, and she backs away.
Angel: There's gotta be some way we can still see each other.
Buffy: There is: tell me that you don't love me.

It's the way he refuses to listen to *her*, and yet makes exactly the same decision later on when other people (The Mayor, Joyce) tell him to. Yes he was wise to leave, but he should have left when Buffy told him to - he was being incredibly patronising by not taking her seriously then. (Don't get me wrong, I love Angel. And his tendenccy to make decisions for others is an inherent character trait that's there from beginning to end. But it's not a nice thing.)

It's the way he refuses to listen to *her*, and yet makes exactly the same decision later on when other people (The Mayor, Joyce) tell him to. Yes he was wise to leave, but he should have left when Buffy told him to - he was being incredibly patronising by not taking her seriously then.

That was the period when Angel was confused for me. Don't forget he just came back from a Hell dimension, he didn't know what he wanted, but he wanted Buffy with him, by his side, he was as confused as her when she came back from Heaven, probably less, but still. It was a horrifying experience for him that it had affected his way of thinking. Also, don't forget he thought about this before Buffy came to this conclusion, back in S2, Angel refused to have a relationship with Buffy regardless to how she felt about it, but then he gave in to his feelings and started to go out with her. Buffy here realizes that it can't go on between her and Angel, but after few episodes she'll give in to her feelings and they'll start again with the relationship. And then we have Angel realize the difficulties of that relationship and then put a STOP to the whole rollercoaster by leaving.

I never thought I'd be defending Angel like that at all. Usually I'm more of a Xander, Spike and Giles defender (My fave men *hugs them*) However, I don't think this is as crazy as my Riley defending days (I still defend him when I think he deserved it) Hell, I defended Andrew awhile back (I hate him!) But I'm sure as hell won't defend Kennedy (time will tell)

I think you've pinpointed the problem of B/A - they never leave at the same time (except 'Angel'). In WSWB he persues her and in 'Reptile Boy she persues him. And then they both just go with it until he goes evil. In S3 she leaves and the comes back, before he leaves (for good). It's a very frustrating relationship.

And I'm not really sure you need to defend Angel, because I understand exactly where he's coming from, and (as far as he can see) he *is* being wise and selfless. But then nobody is good at seeing their won flaws! ;)

As I said, I just wish he's brought up the fact that she broke up with him first - it would have worked a lot better IMHO. (And anyway, ANgel belongs with Darla, so there's not all that much to say... *g*)

I get the impression Darcy doesn't like Angel very much.

I like The Prom a lot and I don't really find the break up so bad. I can perfectly understand where Joyce is coming from. Sometimes people do need to be pushed to do the right thing - and though it seems that people are treating Buffy like a child, she was a child when she fell in love with Angel and I think it had a very profound effect on her - so much so that with him, she literally didn't know her own mind.

I've always felt that when she sees him watching her before he walks away at the end of Graduation 2, she kind of looks relieved. She needed that decision taken out of her hands because she couldn't make it for herself.

I've always felt that when she sees him watching her before he walks away at the end of Graduation 2, she kind of looks relieved. She needed that decision taken out of her hands because she couldn't make it for herself.

I don't really think she wanted it to be made. I think at that time she really wanted Angel around. Angel knew it was the right thing to do, but Buffy still didn't get it at that time.

Actually, I think she partly does, which is why she doesn't try again to stop him.

Oh I understand it all well enough. And Joyce's fears (particularly) are not unfounded.

I think what I wish, is when she said "I don't care about that!" (meaning children, sex, a boyfriend who doesn't set on fire in sunlight etc), he could have answered: "Yes you do. You told me so yourself and you were right."

It's the fact that he forces the issue with no discussion that annoys me so. He does the same thing (but worse) in IWRY, and it makes me go grrr. Of course it's entirely consistent with the character and (in its way) very selfless. But - as Tara said: "But you don't get to decide what is better for us, Will. We're in a relationship, we are supposed to decide together."

Buffy knows it can't last, but I just wish the break up had happened another way. But then where would B/A be without the giant helpings of angst? *g*

But then where would B/A be without the giant helpings of angst? *g*

That's for sure. It's the main reason I get so irritated by it.

The thing is, that ‘Mandy’ belongs to AtS. Angel liked the song *years* before he met Buffy, and he sang it after he’d left her. It is their perfect song - or rather his perfect song about him and what he found in her.

OMG it's perfect. You are a genius! Must resist, must resist but oh the literal potential "A face through a window," "but I sent you away," "in a world of uphill climbing," and "you made me so happy." It's obscene.. no must resist..

Yay! I'm a genius! *g*

And please don't resist! You vids are always very thoughtful and excellent! (Loved your Willow one, although I think I forgot to comment... I am bad!) You could make something really, really good with Mandy I'm sure of it!

Go on go on go on go on go on go on go on...

Hee, I'll chime in to that! I think it could make a really good vid and you could certainly do a great job with it.

It's so tempting...But no, spaceship porn must come first. (And actual work).

I remember thinking the same about Mandy a while ago, it suits that relationship quite well. I also agree with your thoughts about B/A.

Angel could take off for his nice new spin-off and actually begin to get interesting and stuff.

I would never have found Angel such an interesting character without the development he went through there. Of course, I never saw S1-3 until after I'd been watching AtS for 2 years so I first "met" him there. Even so it took a year or more before I found him to be that interesting -- I mostly enjoyed the secondary characters. But a lot more facets of Angel got revealed over the years.

it suits that relationship quite well. I also agree with your thoughts about B/A.
:) And Mandy really *is* a pretty song... (I know, I'm a lost cause!)

I would never have found Angel such an interesting character without the development he went through there.
Me neither. He's just a bit... sad and bland as the love interest. And he can't be as grey as he is on his own show. And AtS proves just how unsuitable he and Buffy are for each other. One thing I noticed watching S3 is how Buffy really has no idea what goes on in Angel's head (and ditto of course). There has to be more to a relationship than just love if it's to last.

This song makes me laugh everytime. I picture in my mind Angel's face while singing and I love him so much, especially when he's shy, forced to sing and do stuff.
Really Manilow's song is a sort of manifesto of Angel's feelings for Buffy. She's maybe just a girl, but he (a shadow of a man) finds in her benediction and courage. So, yes, I'm disappointed when he (and everyone around) treats Buffy like a "litte girl". I'm disappointed by the authors, who forget easily Buffy's struggle for indipendence. I think it's not easy for her to take care of Angel after Becoming. The " big bangel problem", for me, is the little communication between the two lovers. They have a huge trauma(Becoming) trust issues, hormones and everything, but they don't really talk about all this stuff.

Edited 2012-01-23 11:10 (UTC)

Really Manilow's song is a sort of manifesto of Angel's feelings for Buffy.
Isn't it just? I love that they made him so dorky (and yet profound).

I'm disappointed by the authors, who forget easily Buffy's struggle for indipendence.
I think it's mostly S3 that's the problem. After that he moves away and she moves on, and although the writers throw the shippers a bone now and again, really they've grown apart.

The " big bangel problem", for me, is the little communication between the two lovers. They have a huge trauma(Becoming) trust issues, hormones and everything, but they don't really talk about all this stuff.
Which is actually why I find them so interesting to write. They spend but minutes in each other's company during the later seasons, and trying to get to know each other properly would be quite the challenge.

Which is actually why I find them so interesting to write. They spend but minutes in each other's company during the later seasons, and trying to get to know each other properly would be quite the challenge.

I totally understand.
Plus both characters are indipendent and stronger after seven/five years of intensive fighting. It's difficult try to build a new relantionship, but maybe can be interesting. And, with Spike involved, can be also more balanced. *OBSESSIVE*

Edited 2012-01-27 20:47 (UTC)

I have nothing to add. :)

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A request and some B/A thoughts.

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