Spuffy has ruined me...

[elisi]

Or rather - it has crystallised something about what sort of relationships I enjoy reading (and watching). I'm currently working my way through 'The Girl in a Swing' (one of my mother's favourite books), and I'm getting increasingly frustrated. Partly because it's one of those books that begins with the ending (the girl has left/died/disappeared/? - read the book to find out what happens) and the main character is all bereft. Being about 1/3 through he's just met the girl (and proposed) and they're both deliriously, blissfully happy. Basically it's B/A all over. And pondering why it bothers me so (currently I'm thinking he'd have been better off never meeting her, and I'm sure that can't have been the intention), I've realised something:

I like couples where the problems are inherent in the characters, in their temperaments and interactions. To quote 'Elfquest': Differences create good sparks. If they can make it work in spite of - and because of - who they are, then I love it. The action is all in the interplay, and outside forces might have an impact, but it doesn't *shape* the relationship. They are interesting, even if everything around them is dull.

See the problem I have with this book - and with B/A I guess - is that it's outside forces that determine how the relationship fares. There's lots of love, giant big heaps of it, but that's not very interesting. People who are in love are desperately dull to anyone else. So you need to have outside forces to batter the couple - war, or family, or deep, dark secrets, or one of them turns out to be a vampire... And this is when you get the OTT drama, the soul destroying angst when the lovers are parted - because love is (in a way) the only thing keeping them together. The relationship evolves out of their love, rather than the other way around. That's the difference. And I'm not sure that the relationship ever does evolve much. As the_royal_anna once put it so perfectly:

When I think of Buffy and Angel, they are always standing opposite one another, face-to-face. They are looking only at each other, caught in the moment, still, timeless, static.

When I think of Buffy and Spike, most often they are side by side. I think of the back doorstep in Fool For Love, in Flooded, the moment he sits down beside her in Touched, the night he holds her while she lies awake in Chosen.

That says it all for me.

~~~~~~

We'll be going home on monday, so hopefully I'll be a bit more interactive soon. Please comment, I promise to reply (sooner or later...).

Comments

[spuffyduds.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah, that's a nifty way of looking at it! Works for me. It really works with the whole soul thing--Angel had already had it reinserted forcibly (by outside forces!) but Spike himself wanted to get his, to make the relationship work.

Also, on a less thoughtful level--Spike's just way hotter than Angel.

[elisi]

It really works with the whole soul thing
I hadn't thought of that specifically, but yeah, that's a good point.

Actually I would have liked to have seen Wes/Fred for a bit longer - because I don't know what way they would have gone. I think they could have been interesting - Wesley of course had Fred on a pedestal, but Fred was fairly level headed re. Wes. Ah well.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I'm not a Bangel or a Spuffy, still can't watch their 'love' scenes on screen because they're too long and tend to get boring, but fanfic!wise I rather read a Spuffy fic over a Bangel one. Spuffy had something Bangel didn't have: Friendship. I've always loved the friendship sense in the show more than the love ships, that's why the High School Years and also S4 will have a special place in my heart because of the friendship and family themes.

Yet, I enjoy reading late seasons fics because some usually try to fix and work on the damaged friendship between the core four, Spike gets to interact with someone other than Buffy...

Sorry, I lost track in my friendshippy post. *blush* what I'm trying to say is, during the Spuffy years, things were more complecated, which makes fanfic more intersting. Also the relationship between Spike and Buffy had been through many turns and twists the Buffy/Angel relationship didn't go through. Buffy and Angel suddenly decided they're attracted to each other, but Buffy took time to realize that she cared about Spike and eventually loved him. Spike's struggle to be good for her. All more intresting turns than the Angel/Buffy relationship had.

[elisi]

Sorry, I lost track in my friendshippy post.
Hey no problem - I like long comments. :) Lots of good points, and a 'yes' to the whole friendship thing!

[smudgiboo.livejournal.com]

I couldn't agree with you more. Ever since I started reading Spuffy stories all other couples, in other books I read, some how seem so two dimensional. They don't idealize one another. They fully understand each others strengths and weakness in a way no one else can.

[elisi]

Hello there! *waves* Glad you agree, and if you want to read about another couple that has that 'seeing each other as they really are' thing can I recommend the Peter Wimsey books by Dorothy L. Sayers? Crime novels, but the love story between Peter Wimsey and Harriet Vane runs through several of the books and is truly wonderful! (I'll give you a list if you like?)

[smudgiboo.livejournal.com]

Hi !!I would love a list. I'm always anxious to read something new !!I just joined LJ this month and am amazed how many great reading resources I've found. Everyone is so friendly and helpful.

[elisi]

OK, here's a list of all the Peter Wimsey books. The ones that contain the love story in bold:

1. Whose Body (1923)
2. Clouds of Witness (1926)
3. Unnatural Death (1927),
4. Lord Peter Views the Body (short stories) (1928)
5. The Unpleasantness at the Bellona Club (1928)
6. Strong Poison (1930)
7. Suspicious Characters aka The Five Red Herrings (1931)
8. Have His Carcase (1932)
9. Hangman's Holiday (short stories) (1933)
10. Murder Must Advertise (1933)
11. Nine Tailors (1934)
12. Gaudy Night (1935)
13. Busman's Honeymoon: A Love Story with Detective Interruptions(1937)
14. In the Teeth of the Evidence (short stories, only two with Lord Peter) (1939)
15. Thrones, Dominations (1998) (Completed by Jill Paton Walsh)

You *must* read 'The Nine Tailors' though, since it is one of the best books ever! Actually all the books (except the first one, which is very straightforward) are excellent novels in their own right, so they're a joy to read even when you know who the murderer is! And the love story is my favourite right after Buffy and Spike (very different, but just as amazing).

(And LJ is a wonderful place. Welcome!)

[shapinglight]

;Waves:

Hope you're having a good holiday.

[elisi]

It was very lovely indeed. :)

[marsterslady.livejournal.com]

I always love reading your thoughts. I've missed you. :)

[elisi]

Thank you. And I missed you too! *hugs you lots and lots*

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love that image. Side by side. Yes, definitely.

And yes too, to the relative fascination levels in outside forces versus interior conflict - I think that's why the best B/A stories I've ever read all focus on the inner torment of Buffy and Angel's situation. Not that I'm always in the mood for that, though, because it gets pretty torturous - they can't stop loving each other, even though it really, really hurts. It's like those S6-based internal Spike pieces, where he's all up and agonzing about his hopeless love for Buffy, only it's both of them.

I guess I lean toward Spuffy because there at least always seems to be some progress. They talk and they adapt and they change. With B/A, there's a timeless quality, but it's just too static for me.

[elisi]

It's like those S6-based internal Spike pieces, where he's all up and agonzing about his hopeless love for Buffy, only it's both of them.
I know I'm callous, but that makes me laugh!

They talk and they adapt and they change.
::nods:: I know there was something I was going to say, but now it's completely gone. If I ever remember it I'll be back...

[jerusha]

That is exactly the way I feel about S/B and B/A. I like the metaphor of their stances as well: face-to-face vs. side-by-side. That really does say it all. And I have exactly the same reaction to characters where the only interesting thing about them is that they're in love with each other.

[elisi]

And I have exactly the same reaction to characters where the only interesting thing about them is that they're in love with each other.
Yay! :) It's Jane/Bingley Vs. Elizabeth/Darcy - Jane and Bingley are lovely of course, but I would struggle to actually say more...

[samsom.livejournal.com]

B/A happened, imo, as a plot device for S2. If DB hadn't gotten his own show, I'm fairly certain Angel would have stayed dead. The ship served its purpose and I went with it because it was the story they were telling. I was heartbroken for her because of the decison she had to make, between him and saving the world, but I always felt that Angel was Buffy's stepping stone to being older and making harder decisions - ya know, growing up.

Spike and Buffy, otoh, wow. They had time, years, to go from enemies to allies/lovers. Their feelings changed naturally - nothing was rushed. It was an adult relationship between equals.

Whose to say if B/A could have maintain an adult relationship post NFA, some people think yes. But for me, they'd already moved past each other, and as long as Spike was in the picture, Buffy would never fully engage with any other man anyway, supernatural or not. I always had the feeling that whenever Spike was in the room, there was always a part of her focused on only him.

Sigh.

There's something about Spuffy that's very visceral, a complete understanding of the other no other ship for either of them ever achieved.

I hope that I managed to stay on topic, and now that I've spammed the hell out of your journal, I'll go.:)

[elisi]

B/A happened, imo, as a plot device for S2.
Oh yes. They're Romeo & Juliet all over, the problem being that they're supposed to die... after that there isn't any more story to tell.

There's something about Spuffy that's very visceral, a complete understanding of the other no other ship for either of them ever achieved.
::nods fervently:: Absolutely. Don't worry about the spamming, I love all your thoughts. (And I think there's a part of Angel that's only happy if he's miserable...)

[eyesthatslay.livejournal.com]

WORD.

[elisi]

*grin*

[prophcygrl.livejournal.com]

I so enjoy reading your thoughts, you never fail to create a 'light-bulb moment'! Heh.

If they can make it work in spite of - and because of - who they are, then I love it. The action is all in the interplay, and outside forces might have an impact, but it doesn't *shape* the relationship. They are interesting, even if everything around them is dull.

THIS! This is it, exactly!

[elisi]

you never fail to create a 'light-bulb moment'!
Yay! They're usually my own light bulb moments that I try to put across in my often less than capable writing. I'm glad it worked! :)