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My show ♥
'There’s a turn here, though, in which Doctor Who becomes a show that is about the pleasures of the text. It exists to be taken apart and read closely, so much so that there is almost no point at which the phrase “reading too much into things” applies. It is a show that is about reading extremely and perversely into things. When every single sentence can be as pregnant with meaning as this structure allows, what can “reading too much into things” even possibly mean? Moffat’s work, around this point, becomes strangely and wonderfully obsessed with testing the limits of what an episode of television can do. It is, in its own way, as fascinating and radical as Doctor Who has been since the Hartnell era.'
Philip Sandifer
Philip Sandifer
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It's so great to see this sort of thing outside the LJs of our little meta community! WE ARE NOT ALONE.
Kind of relatedly, you will appreciate this - so Frank Cottrell Boyce, who has written ep10 of this season, is one of the authors my company works with. Back in February, before it had been officially announced that he was writing an ep (though I think the news had possibly leaked?) my colleagues and I took him out for lunch to celebrate the publication of his latest book. And...he told me all about the rough summary for his episode. I enthused at him a lot, and then he later emailed me his synopsis/set of ideas he had run past Moffat. It was....really, really cool. And so OBVIOUSLY full of meta that I sent him a kind of unprofessionally flaily email back, with all sorts of meta-thoughts about it, and he was, er, really very keen on it all. He said it was 'really useful' and asked for more, but I bottled out at that point and said, look, if you encourage me I will actually write you a 5000 word essay on this. And I should be working. Argh!
So in conclusion: (a) We should all be really looking forward to Frank's undoubtedly awesome episode, and (b) 'reading too much into things' is a stupid concept with as Philip Sandifer says means NOTHING, particularly when the author of the ep wants to know your thoughts.
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ETA: You should totally have written him a 5000 word essay! Esp considering the Olympics thing! I would have fawned at his feet and never let go! ♥ ♥ ♥
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Ahem. Anyway - perhaps I'll write that essay after the ep! Hah. I think he'd be happy but a little afraid.
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And I'd love to read your meta!
(One of the best compliments I ever got - can't remember if I ever told you - was when I wrote meta on the Spike: Asylum comics, and someone linked the writer. He replied to say that he thought it was excellent, and wished he could have put it in the paperback collection edition, as an extra. I nearly fainted.)
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ETA: omg, did not realize that that was the Olympics Opening Ceremony guy. I mean, I knew that the Olympics Opening Ceremony guy was going to be writing an episode and that Moff said amazing things about it and have already basically killed myself with squee over the prospect, but omg.
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Thank you for this. I didn't realise either. That ceremony was like... Moffat Who for theatre.
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I think if I ever used any icon other than my Amelie one, I would need one saying 'I blame elisi' (for use with meta) and one saying 'I blame such_heights' (for vids).
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My icon making skills are v. basic, but at least more-or-less presentable. *points to current one*
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*HAPPY!TWIRL*
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Haha, was it just as bad with RTD? People who hate Moffat these days seem to think RTD was the Golden Era… People just always seem to hate, don't they?
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Yeah, you're loved when you're not running the thing, pretty much. *cackles* Mind you, a writer's flaws show a lot more when they're handling something so huge rather than when they have only a few episodes, but I don't know if the criticism was that reasonable. XD Oh, the caricature.
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Sexist because of Donna, but also 'cause Rose was just fobbed off with TenToo. (And all the nasty mothers etc.)
Racist because Martha was given the 'pining after the Doctor' role (not as good as the white girl), and Mickey too, of course.
Homophobic because he killed Ianto. (Nevermind that Torchwood was pretty much the only show on TV where bisexual was the norm, and the main pairing was m/m. Ianto was fandom's darling and they flew into a rage when he was killed off. Miracle Day was pants, but even so I don't think the show would ever have recovered.)
Then there was issues with the writing (Tinkerbell!Doctor), turning the Master into a lunatic, and just... everything. EoT was despised like few things I have known.]
The whitewashing would be hilarious if it wasn't for the corresponding levels of Moffat hate.
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I beg your pardon? XD
(And all the nasty mothers etc.)
Right. Because protective mothers are irrealistic, and sexist. Also, the fathers are better, clearly.
because Martha was given the 'pining after the Doctor' role (not as good as the white girl)
Medical student vs. shop girl and temp, anyone?
Homophobic because he killed Ianto.
HOW ABOUT JACK/IANTO EXISTING AND BEING THE VERY BIG THING IT IS
Nevermind that Torchwood was pretty much the only show on TV where bisexual was the norm, and the main pairing was m/m.
YES
Yeah… everything gets hate XD Goodness… Like I said, I get some of the issues, everything has flaws and problematic parts. But people get so crazy. Just unbelievable.
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Donna's ending? Begging him to stop, but he didn't? The man overriding the woman's wishes? There was a LOT of likening it to rape etc. A lot - and I mean, a lot - of people never forgave RTD for that.
Right. Because protective mothers are irrealistic, and sexist. Also, the fathers are better, clearly.
Well, I sort of almost give them this one. He thinks they are 'funny mums'. But there's a good bit of dismissal of older women... I don't think he sees it, or does it intentionally, but it's still there. OH! And Harriet Jones. ('Don't you think she looks tired?') I can't believe fandom's collective amnesia on that score. Damn. They hated him SO MUCH.
Medical student vs. shop girl and temp, anyone?
All that mattered was the the Doctor luuuuurved Rose and pined after her. Martha was second best. (Putting Martha's family in servants' outfits, as slaves to the white Master? HUGE issues in America.)
HOW ABOUT JACK/IANTO EXISTING AND BEING THE VERY BIG THING IT IS
Fandom hath no fury like a ship destroyed. (I came up in the Buffy fandom. I knew to expect this kinda thing. Moffat still surprises me by giving people happy endings and not just snatched moments of happiness before DESTROYING ALL THAT IS GOOD FOREVER.) (It took me years to get over Ianto, no character death has EVER hit me so hard. Fandom grieved. And I mean that literally. He has a commemorative wall. And a plaque. Show me any other fictional character that has this.)
Yeah… everything gets hate XD Goodness… Like I said, I get some of the issues, everything has flaws and problematic parts. But people get so crazy. Just unbelievable.
It was sort of like Moffat-hate? Except much wider in scope. The Moffat haters have zoned in on the women specifically. But RTD was a free-for-all.
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Right, because rape usually comes with the intent of saving someone's life… I understand arguing about that ending, but this one's going a bit far, lol.
But there's a good bit of dismissal of older women... I don't think he sees it, or does it intentionally, but it's still there.
Yeah… (That's a bit like the way I feel about Moffat. He wants to do powerful female figures, clearly, and on some instances it works great, but there remain a lot of problematic things. Doesn't mean either of the two is Satan and hates women. So much hate gets in the way of rational discussion… Then again, what do I expect, it's hate XD)
Good point about Harriet, too. And Harriet was so much WIN in every other bit…
(Putting Martha's family in servants' outfits, as slaves to the white Master? HUGE issues in America.)
Still more realistic than her walking around freely in Shakespeare's time, lol! That's only historical lucidity. Plus we could see Martha snark at the student jerks and cut the nurse down to size about medical knowledge… what more do they want? That's right, rewriting history.
(It took me years to get over Ianto, no character death has EVER hit me so hard. Fandom grieved. And I mean that literally. He has a commemorative wall. And a plaque. Show me any other fictional character that has this.)
♥♥♥
It was sort of like Moffat-hate? Except much wider in scope. The Moffat haters have zoned in on the women specifically. But RTD was a free-for-all.
And to think I was sure it couldn't be worse XD
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Yes, but if she wanted to die, rather than lose her memories, who was he to say no? It was about removing her agency. She had the Doctor's mind invade hers without giving her consent, and then he took it away again. I don't think he should have let her die, obviously, but the consent issues are... deeply problematic. (The other issue I have is the implied notion that life without the Doctor is worse than death. This implied by both RTD and those hating him for Donna's ending. Moffat fixed SO MANY THINGS! I will ALWAYS be grateful for Amy, if nothing else, then as a counterpoint to Donna.)
That's a bit like the way I feel about Moffat. He wants to do powerful female figures, clearly, and on some instances it works great, but there remain a lot of problematic things.
The thing is, if you avoid problematic things altogether... You really can't tell very good stories. That doesn't mean writers shouldn't do stupid, avoidable things. But stories come from conflicts.
Good point about Harriet, too. And Harriet was so much WIN in every other bit…
At least she got a good ending. (I am having serious deja vu, here. Did I already reply? I can't see anything, but this is weird.)
Still more realistic than her walking around freely in Shakespeare's time, lol!
Weeeeell. That could probably happen.
Plus we could see Martha snark at the student jerks and cut the nurse down to size about medical knowledge… what more do they want? That's right, rewriting history.
What they want is everything. Both ways.
And to think I was sure it couldn't be worse XD
So did I... :(
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Yes, that's completely right, clearly. The consent issue is problematic… Rape is pushing it, though. It's just not an issue you throw around, it's too horrible.
The other issue I have is the implied notion that life without the Doctor is worse than death. This implied by both RTD and those hating him for Donna's ending. Moffat fixed SO MANY THINGS!
Yes, that's true. Characters having lives outside of the Doctor… ;) Hard to imagine managing to balance that, but it's certainly healthier.
The thing is, if you avoid problematic things altogether... You really can't tell very good stories. That doesn't mean writers shouldn't do stupid, avoidable things. But stories come from conflicts.
Yes, that's quite true. It's like with passionate love and the dependency issue, for instance. Feminism tends to start screaming whenever a woman acts like her partner is the most important thing for her, but a) you've got to look at whether or not it is requited and b) ever since romance began, the greatest love stories have generally been the ones where you could (and often did) gladly give your life for the person you love. That is regardless of gender and equality, it's only PASSIONATE LOVE! And what might not be healthy when you look at the characters with a reality-based, psychological POV makes for great storytelling. If all else perished, and he remained, I should still continue to be; and if all else remained, and he were annihilated, the universe would turn to a mighty stranger.
(I am having serious deja vu, here. Did I already reply? I can't see anything, but this is weird.)
On only the Harriet question? Maybe we discussed her before, I can't recall, but you definitely hadn't answered this before ;)
What they want is everything. Both ways.
True ;)
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You have MET fandom, right? *has seen too many kerfuffels to count*
Yes, that's true. Characters having lives outside of the Doctor… ;) Hard to imagine managing to balance that, but it's certainly healthier.
I think that's my main issue with Rose & Donna... Their 'I'm going to travel with him forever'. Not that I can't fanwank it, but I still don't think it's good. But really, that's a problem I have with RTD, not the characters. :)
That is regardless of gender and equality, it's only PASSIONATE LOVE! And what might not be healthy when you look at the characters with a reality-based, psychological POV makes for great storytelling.
Oooooh yes. Jack/Ianto is so wonderful partly because it's so... intense. They're both wary of committing, and yet Ianto is *incredibly* protective of Jack. (I'm sure I have said before that I always fall for the same 'ship.* Jack/Ianto has lots of parallels to Doctor/River. Except River got a much better deal.)
On only the Harriet question? Maybe we discussed her before, I can't recall, but you definitely hadn't answered this before ;)
Maybe I began replying on the laptop... Ah well, nevermind.
*Basically could you take away the love and still have a good dynamic?
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Haha, I try to stick to my safe corner ;)
I think that's my main issue with Rose & Donna... Their 'I'm going to travel with him forever'. Not that I can't fanwank it, but I still don't think it's good.
Yeah, I understand that. I love it but I don't condone it, pretty much ;)
Oooooh yes. Jack/Ianto is so wonderful partly because it's so... intense. They're both wary of committing, and yet Ianto is *incredibly* protective of Jack.
♥♥♥ I want to watch all the Torchwood because of them, but lol, no time…
(I'm sure I have said before that I always fall for the same 'ship.* Jack/Ianto has lots of parallels to Doctor/River. Except River got a much better deal.)
All the love for them ^_^
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You and me both!
Yeah, I understand that. I love it but I don't condone it, pretty much ;)
Oh that's... most of my fannish love, right there. Well, Moffat Who is odd in that I often do both, but generally I will eat up the pain and difficulties and brokenness with a spoon, whilst never wanting anything like it ever in RL.
♥♥♥ I want to watch all the Torchwood because of them, but lol, no time…
I hear ya. It's not going anywhere, so just save it. One day.
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This so much. I love all the dysfunctional relationships and troubled characters, but I would not want any of that in RL, lol… Not to mention the baddies adoration ;)
I hear ya. It's not going anywhere, so just save it. One day.
Yup ^_^ (The Number One Goal at the moment is one day reaching the end of the Two era… ;))
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Mmmm Spike. <3
The Number One Goal at the moment is one day reaching the end of the Two era… ;)
Good luck.
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Thanks! ;)
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