elisi | There might be some spamming forthcoming...

::re-does post because of earlier stupidity::

Still not feeling very well, so I've spent longer than usual in front of the computer, procrastinating. The upshoot is that the last part of the Christmas fic is just about ready to post (like, more than a month after the event... ah well, it has nothing to do with Christmas anyway). Also I had a sudden and very interesting insight, and will be posting an essay on The First Evil as soon as it's finished.

Now I remembered writing something about 'Amends' and 'Never Leave Me' once upon a time, but I could not find it! So I re-did it. The fabulous

crackers4jenn pointed out that she'd written something v. similar a while ago. After about an hour it suddenly dawned on me that what I'd written wasn't a post - it was a comment!!! ::facepalm:: Soooo I'm going to copy out the essence of that comment, since I'd like to have it in my own LJ, but if you're curious you can find c4j's very brilliant post here and my comment here.

Amends:
Angel: Am I a thing worth saving, huh? Am I a righteous man? The world wants me gone!
Buffy: What about me? I love you so much... And I tried to make you go away... I killed you and it didn't help.

Never Leave Me:
Spike: I already did it. It's already done. You wanna know what I've done to girls Dawn's age? This is me Buffy. You've got to kill me before I get out.
....
Buffy:You're alive because I saw you change. Because I saw your penance.[...] Be easier, wouldn't it, it if were an act, but it's not. You faced the monster inside of you and you fought back. You risked everything to be a better man.
Spike: Buffy...
Buffy: And you can be. You are. You may not see it, but I do. I do. I believe in you, Spike.

In Amends a great deal of Buffy's argument is - if you die you'll hurt me again. Angel asks if he's worth saving, and she says that she needs him.

Spike in essence asks the same question, and Buffy comes out with a resounding 'Yes'. He is worth saving. Not because of any feelings she might have, but for his own sake.

The results:

Not all of Buffy's love was enough to sway Angel - he was saved by magic snow (TPTB protecting their future champion).

Buffy's faith in Spike made him stand up to weeks of torture, never giving up hope!

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I wrote a little something about Amends/Never Leave Me a while ago. :)

I can't stand Amends. That cop-out ending just... ack. No. I like the confrontation between Angel and Buffy, just like I like the confrontation between Spike and Buffy-- but when the snow falls? Like it's supposed to be this Oh Holy sign, and, hand-in-hand, Buffy and Angel wander through the suddenly inch-high snowy streets of Sunnydale? Gag. Spare me. It just further illustrates the point that Buffy/Angel is the highly romanticized, ideal relationship that's so very, very unrealistic.

Oh thank you so much for that! You're so much more eloquent than me. I'll link to it so people can read that too - I recall reading it back then and nodding along!

The thing though with all the magical snow, is that it's quite simply The Powers' way of preserving their champion - he has people to save and prophecies to fulfill! Nothing to do with Buffy!

OK I am an *idiot*! (See amended post.)

Although I must admit I'm a sucker for the magic snow, OH MY, IT'S CANON! :D Great little comparision here. Oh, I loved Season 7. I need to pull out my dvds and have a rewatch.

My feelings vary on the magic snow - I can understand why people love it, but it stops Angel and Buffy dealing with their relationship until the end of the Season when he eventually dumps her.

I am *all* about the S7 love at the moment. But then writing essays does tend to have that effect...

Looks awesome! I like this color better than the green one, though I really liked the last banner, loved Buffy's cheeks in one of the caps (one with her eyes closed but wasn't kissing Spike)

I belive Spike needed Buffy's or probably anyone's apporaval of him, that what will keep him go on. Buffy believed in him, and he held on to her words, that's why The First couldn't get him. With Angel, it's more about his guilt, the people he killed, and for some reasons, even though it wasn't adressed on the show (but I could be wrong) he probably had issues with Buffy sending him to hell. He knew she did the wise thing, but really, all these years tortured in some hellish place? I'm surprised he still loved Buffy when he came back.

Thank you! :) I've seen quite a few black/orange layouts around and always liked them, so since that would fit with the banner... :)

I'm surprised he still loved Buffy when he came back.
I don't think that's the issue. As far as Angel thinks, he deserves to be in hell. From 'Amends':

Angel: I should be in a demon dimension suffering an eternity of torture.
Giles: I don't feel particularly inclined to argue with that.
Angel: But I'm not. I was freed, and I don't understand why.

He killed and tormented people for 140 years, as far as he's concerned he has to pay. And since he was the one to free Acathla, it makes perfect sense that he's the one to stop it. I think you underestimate Angel's feelings of guilt and need for atonement!

I think you underestimate Angel's feelings of guilt and need for atonement!

I don't. I'm just amazed at how much Angel loves Buffy. All these years in hell, I'd probably forget who my mother was. lol

Coming here from the link you posted on my LJ. :)

I'd never thought to compare those two scenes before, though there's an obvious parallel now that you point it out. And the end conclusion is the Buffy/Spike totally wins. :)

In all honesty, Angel/Buffy always seems more caught up in their ideal of each other and everything (To Angel, Buffy was his "destiny" or some such sappy nonsense and Angel became Buffy's ideal "first love"). There never seemed to be a genuine understanding of what the other was as they were too caught up in their own perceptions of each other.

Thus, Buffy not arguing with Angel that he's worth saving. She doesn't know. She just knows what he means to her.

Buffy/Spike, by S7, was a completely different beast, though. It was two people who knew each other completely. No destinies. No teenage fantasies. Just absolute acceptance and love.

In NLM, Buffy gives Spike that acceptance and belief. I think the love comes later in the season, but it has a start there, at least. :)

Coming here from the link you posted on my LJ. :)
I figured that it was so short that you wouldn't mind a little self-pimp. ;)

I'd never thought to compare those two scenes before, though there's an obvious parallel now that you point it out. And the end conclusion is the Buffy/Spike totally wins. :)
I love parallels - especially when they confirm what I always thought.

There never seemed to be a genuine understanding of what the other was as they were too caught up in their own perceptions of each other.
*nods* Actually I agree with pretty much everything you write here, and am (SORRY!) reminded of a post I wrote a good while ago re. the difference between the two relationship. (Linking you mostly since I can't be bothered to re-write it all. *g*)

Of course the only logical way of keeping everyone happy is Spike/Buffy/Angel!

(Sorry if I am somewhat incoherent, but my head is full of cold.)

I love this comparison!
Your point of view about Buffy is always interesting.

Not all of Buffy's love was enough to sway Angel - he was saved by magic snow (TPTB protecting their future champion).

Buffy's faith in Spike made him stand up to days (weeks?) of torture, never giving up hope!

Spike & Buffy totally belong to each other!
I add just one thing: I believe that even Angel didn't love Buffy so much. I finally convince himself with the magic snow, because he needs to be the *Hero of Good*, the love for Buffy doesn't fill everything for him.
Spike and Buffy totally need to marry each other. ù_ù

There might be some spamming forthcoming...

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