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Meta: Layers in Doctor Who
"I always loved poetry because you can treat a poem like a puzzle. Everything matters on all the levels: literal meaning, symbolic meaning, allusions, associations, sounds, the rhythm, the relation of each part to whole, the structure of it all, the configuration on the page... the sheer density of information you can encode in a poem is just awesome. There is NO WAY to read poetry passively.
AND THEY MADE A WHOLE TV SHOW LIKE THAT."
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promethia_tenk
I’ve had the above quote on my profile page ever since Promethia wrote it, because, well, yes. However I recently began thinking about what these layers were (blame Dante, as The Divine Comedy has never less than three layers at any one time). This post is the tentative result.
Layers in Doctor Who
Story level: Everyone is themselves, and stuff happens to them - the basic, ongoing story of the show. There’s running about and alien worlds to visit and monsters to battle. Basic plot, storylines, characters, all that jazz - this is where the criticism will be levelled at, as it’s what everyone can see. But this is only the first layer. Let’s see how deep we can go?
Metaphors/imagery level: Water (= time), fish (= people), mirrors, characters as mirrors, monsters as dark mirrors/subconscious fears manifesting (for example the shark in A Christmas Carol), forests/trees/leaves, books/stories, boxes, eggs, etc. etc. etc. The list could go on and on. The main point being - most of these things are code. To explain, allow me to quote Dante. From The Divine Comedy, Paradise, Canto IV, lines 40 - 45 and 55 - 57, as well as some of the notes. (Translation by Dorothy L. Sayers):
Doctor Who does a lot of the same, using imagery to appeal to a deeper level. But, where does all this imagery come from?
Fairytale level: Wizard (Doctor), orphan (Amy, Melody), crone (River), princess (Rory (sometimes Amy)), prince/questing knight (Amy (sometimes Rory)), evil stepmother (Kovarian), fairy godmother (TARDIS), and of course lots of monsters signifying the different fears below the surface, as well as all the tropes that come with the stock characters. Moffat has of course said that this is deliberate:
The fairytale symbolism is easy to understand and decode, but it builds on deeper things.
Mythology Level: Greek, Roman, Ancient Egyptian, Norse mythology, Christian symbolism - the basic myths and stories that helped shape storytelling tradition. To quotejanie_aire:
There’s plenty more of course - but I have neither the knowledge, nor the time, to delve into it all. Suffice to day that most symbolism we use comes from these sources, and most storywriters since (Dante, Shakespeare, Tolkien) will have used them in their work. And added their own mark, as indeed does Doctor Who...
Also here I will add the Doctor as a Trickster character, an ancient archetype that is found in stories/myths in most (pre-colonisation) native cultures.
Modern Myth Level: Doctor Who has, through its sheer longevity and popularity, created a new specific mythology, inherent to the show: TARDIS, Daleks, ‘reverse the polarity’, Time Lords (which come with specific traits & mythos: regeneration, two hearts, Gallifrey, Rassilon & Omega etc.). Recently we have also been given a whole host of titles, creating its own fairy tale characters: The Lonely God/The Oncoming Storm (tragic hero), Mad Man with a Box (Trickster), The Girl Who Waited, The Last Centurion. Here is what I wrote in my big post on The Big Bang, because it’s important:
But there is another level (well there might be several, but these are the ones I could identify). And the last one is possibly the most intriguing...
Allegory Level:
Clara
To begin at the end, I will merely link to this post byibishtar:
On the significance of Clara's birthdate - meta and speculation
Essentially: Clara is an allegorical representation of the show. Born on the 23rd of November (like the show) and twice dead (like the show) - and she is always the same, yet different - like the show. It’s quite straightforward, go read the post.
The Ponds
The Ponds are fandom in all its various guises. They’ve grown up with the Raggedy Doctor (and he is theirs, just like everyone had *their* Doctor), making dolls and drawing pictures and writing stories and dressing up. Loving and hating the Doctor - killing him and then bringing him back through sheer determination. AUs spring up around them at the drop of a hat, and they even give him a wife. And - maybe most importantly - they grow up to become the storytellers, telling new children all about the wonderful man in his magical box.
And of course River, the one who chronicles his (their) life, ends up in a Library, a librarian/curator/keeper of all the stories.
Doctor Who
Doctor Who (the character, the story of the show, as opposed to the show itself) is England/Britain (post-Empire), trying to come to terms with where we're at now. This is not deliberate, I don’t think, but the story of Britain in the past 50 years is clearly reflected in the show. Gallifrey was known as the Shining World of the Seven Systems, and at the peak of its power, it was often said that "the sun never sets on the British Empire", because its span across the globe ensured that the sun was always shining on at least one of its numerous territories. But the glory days of Gallifrey were over by the time the Doctor ran away; the Time Lords a bunch of daft old geezers in silly hats arguing amongst themselves. Until the re-booted show when they (and their once great empire) was gone for good - and the Doctor was left alone, trying to work out who and what he was now.
Because the Doctor is every inch the ‘Scion of Empire’ - the Englishman abroad. (The Doctor: “Just walk about like you own the place. Works for me.”) Everyone else is ‘a foreigner’ to him. (It is technically impossible for an Englishman to be a foreigner. Just so you know.) But now he has lost all the underpinnings of his heritage & privilege.
ETA: Meant to include this, as it perfectly illustrates my point - all the privilege, as well as 'the white man's burden':
But - who is he now? How does he interact with the world? Well he falters, and he makes bad choices, and he (grudgingly) ‘dies’, fading from the world he used to rule. However - if necessary, he can still create magic: just look at the London 2012 Olympics & Paralympics. (The opening & closing ceremonies of which, incidentally, played upon allll the levels above.)
Now the fascinating thing is that Bond (the other great British icon, who - along with Sherlock - makes up the trifecta of homegrown heroes) has been going through exactly the same thing in Skyfall. Except Bond is less coded than Doctor Who, and could tackle the issue more directly, leading to M quoting this wonderful poem which sums it all up:
Where do we go from here? Only time will tell...
AND THEY MADE A WHOLE TV SHOW LIKE THAT."
promethia_tenkI’ve had the above quote on my profile page ever since Promethia wrote it, because, well, yes. However I recently began thinking about what these layers were (blame Dante, as The Divine Comedy has never less than three layers at any one time). This post is the tentative result.
Story level: Everyone is themselves, and stuff happens to them - the basic, ongoing story of the show. There’s running about and alien worlds to visit and monsters to battle. Basic plot, storylines, characters, all that jazz - this is where the criticism will be levelled at, as it’s what everyone can see. But this is only the first layer. Let’s see how deep we can go?
Metaphors/imagery level: Water (= time), fish (= people), mirrors, characters as mirrors, monsters as dark mirrors/subconscious fears manifesting (for example the shark in A Christmas Carol), forests/trees/leaves, books/stories, boxes, eggs, etc. etc. etc. The list could go on and on. The main point being - most of these things are code. To explain, allow me to quote Dante. From The Divine Comedy, Paradise, Canto IV, lines 40 - 45 and 55 - 57, as well as some of the notes. (Translation by Dorothy L. Sayers):
This way of speech best suits your apprehension,
Which knows but to receive reports from sense
And fit them for the intellect’s attention.
So Scripture stoops to your intelligence:
It talks about God’s ‘hand’ and ‘feet’, intending
That you should draw a different inference;
[...]
Yet he may not have meant men to be guided
By the words’s surface sense, and thus might claim
Another purport, not to be derided
Notes: ... That which Dante is shown in Paradise is a sign, presented to his senses, so that his intellect may grasp the meaning. According to Aristotelian and scholastic psychology, the intellect works upon images which are retained in the mind after the sense impressions that produced them have vanished. Thus the imaginative faculties (“apprehension”, l. 40) receive from the faculties of sense the impressions which they present for the intellect to work on. [...] Using means similar to those of scripture and of religious art, Dante renders Paradise intelligible in terms of sense, imagination and intellect.
Doctor Who does a lot of the same, using imagery to appeal to a deeper level. But, where does all this imagery come from?
Fairytale level: Wizard (Doctor), orphan (Amy, Melody), crone (River), princess (Rory (sometimes Amy)), prince/questing knight (Amy (sometimes Rory)), evil stepmother (Kovarian), fairy godmother (TARDIS), and of course lots of monsters signifying the different fears below the surface, as well as all the tropes that come with the stock characters. Moffat has of course said that this is deliberate:
"Maybe this isn't new but it is my view: Doctor Who is a fairy tale – not sci-fi, not fantasy but properly a fairy tale. And I don't mean Disney-style where the endings are changed and everyone lives. Doctor Who is how we warn our children that there are people in the world who want to eat them."
The fairytale symbolism is easy to understand and decode, but it builds on deeper things.
Mythology Level: Greek, Roman, Ancient Egyptian, Norse mythology, Christian symbolism - the basic myths and stories that helped shape storytelling tradition. To quote
janie_aire:In many myths around the world, there's a version of what's called The World Tree, an axis mundi that connects Above and Below, and Past and Future, to the Here and Now, in the Center. It's usually a Tree, like Yggdrasil in Norse mythology, but it could also be a Mountain, like Mount Olympus was to the Greeks. So, the top of the axis mundi reaches the Heavens, while the bottom digs down into the Underworld. From a psychological point of view, the Heavens represent our aspirations, our conscience, our ability to fly high and look at the big picture. The Heavens are where our Gods and Goddesses reside. The Underworld, on the other hand, is the place of the Subconscious, a place for monsters and our deepest desires -- but it's not necessarily "Hell" in the Christian sense, just a place where the "baser" aspects of the Self can find a home.
There’s plenty more of course - but I have neither the knowledge, nor the time, to delve into it all. Suffice to day that most symbolism we use comes from these sources, and most storywriters since (Dante, Shakespeare, Tolkien) will have used them in their work. And added their own mark, as indeed does Doctor Who...
Also here I will add the Doctor as a Trickster character, an ancient archetype that is found in stories/myths in most (pre-colonisation) native cultures.
Modern Myth Level: Doctor Who has, through its sheer longevity and popularity, created a new specific mythology, inherent to the show: TARDIS, Daleks, ‘reverse the polarity’, Time Lords (which come with specific traits & mythos: regeneration, two hearts, Gallifrey, Rassilon & Omega etc.). Recently we have also been given a whole host of titles, creating its own fairy tale characters: The Lonely God/The Oncoming Storm (tragic hero), Mad Man with a Box (Trickster), The Girl Who Waited, The Last Centurion. Here is what I wrote in my big post on The Big Bang, because it’s important:
Doctor Who is a fairy tale, told to a whole country. A fairy tale for the age of television, and more powerful for that maybe? A story that today’s children are having told to them, just like their parents and grandparents had. A wonderful story about the daft old man who stole a magic box and ran away. And it is brand new (new Doctor, new Companion, new show runner, new logo, new theme) and at the same time very old (the TARDIS once more has its St John’s Ambulance sticker, the Doctor carries around a library card with a photo of his first face), small and personal (everyone has their Doctor), and huge, spanning a nation and generations, and the bluest blue ever (back when the show was in black and white Police Boxes were a common sight and everyone knew that it was blue). It changes, and yet stays the same, and everyone knows about the man with the blue box.
But there is another level (well there might be several, but these are the ones I could identify). And the last one is possibly the most intriguing...
Allegory Level:
Clara
To begin at the end, I will merely link to this post by
ibishtar:On the significance of Clara's birthdate - meta and speculation
Essentially: Clara is an allegorical representation of the show. Born on the 23rd of November (like the show) and twice dead (like the show) - and she is always the same, yet different - like the show. It’s quite straightforward, go read the post.
The Ponds
The Ponds are fandom in all its various guises. They’ve grown up with the Raggedy Doctor (and he is theirs, just like everyone had *their* Doctor), making dolls and drawing pictures and writing stories and dressing up. Loving and hating the Doctor - killing him and then bringing him back through sheer determination. AUs spring up around them at the drop of a hat, and they even give him a wife. And - maybe most importantly - they grow up to become the storytellers, telling new children all about the wonderful man in his magical box.
And of course River, the one who chronicles his (their) life, ends up in a Library, a librarian/curator/keeper of all the stories.
Doctor Who
Doctor Who (the character, the story of the show, as opposed to the show itself) is England/Britain (post-Empire), trying to come to terms with where we're at now. This is not deliberate, I don’t think, but the story of Britain in the past 50 years is clearly reflected in the show. Gallifrey was known as the Shining World of the Seven Systems, and at the peak of its power, it was often said that "the sun never sets on the British Empire", because its span across the globe ensured that the sun was always shining on at least one of its numerous territories. But the glory days of Gallifrey were over by the time the Doctor ran away; the Time Lords a bunch of daft old geezers in silly hats arguing amongst themselves. Until the re-booted show when they (and their once great empire) was gone for good - and the Doctor was left alone, trying to work out who and what he was now.
Because the Doctor is every inch the ‘Scion of Empire’ - the Englishman abroad. (The Doctor: “Just walk about like you own the place. Works for me.”) Everyone else is ‘a foreigner’ to him. (It is technically impossible for an Englishman to be a foreigner. Just so you know.) But now he has lost all the underpinnings of his heritage & privilege.
ETA: Meant to include this, as it perfectly illustrates my point - all the privilege, as well as 'the white man's burden':
But - who is he now? How does he interact with the world? Well he falters, and he makes bad choices, and he (grudgingly) ‘dies’, fading from the world he used to rule. However - if necessary, he can still create magic: just look at the London 2012 Olympics & Paralympics. (The opening & closing ceremonies of which, incidentally, played upon allll the levels above.)
Now the fascinating thing is that Bond (the other great British icon, who - along with Sherlock - makes up the trifecta of homegrown heroes) has been going through exactly the same thing in Skyfall. Except Bond is less coded than Doctor Who, and could tackle the issue more directly, leading to M quoting this wonderful poem which sums it all up:
Though much is taken, much abides; and though
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Alfred, Lord Tennyson (1809-1892) 1833
Where do we go from here? Only time will tell...
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*Rereads*
*SQUISHES*
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I had NEVER thought of Clara that way, but wow, yeah, she really is the show: twice dead, coming back to life in a new but essentially the same form.
Your other points are also spot-on. And this
Because the Doctor is every inch the ‘Scion of Empire’ - the Englishman abroad.
immediately made me think of the simply wonderful use of Sting's "Englishman in New York" in "The Angels Take Manhattan."
Fantastic points also about Bond and Sherlock, another couple of iconic English characters that are enjoying a re-visioning for the 21st Century.
I love your metas--please continue to share them! They always make me think about the show in a completely different way. I love that you can enjoy this series on so many different levels.
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I like I say in the comment above,
immediately made me think of the simply wonderful use of Sting's "Englishman in New York" in "The Angels Take Manhattan."
IKR? Aaaaand you just made me realise what I forgot to put in. Darn. Must go fix. (It's a neat illustration, so thanks for reminding me!)
Fantastic points also about Bond and Sherlock, another couple of iconic English characters that are enjoying a re-visioning for the 21st Century.
Good, isn't? Although they *have* to change, in order to reflect the world we now live in...
I love your metas--please continue to share them! They always make me think about the show in a completely different way. I love that you can enjoy this series on so many different levels.
Oh there's no stopping me! *g* But thank you - it's good to know that people are enjoying my ramblings. And oh, the layers - I always go on about them, so actually trying to work out what they are was fascinating.
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Your metas make me realize why I love and continue to watch DW. Sometimes the plot messiness can make me grind my teeth (especially when a decent setup is squandered with a resolution involving little more than a rush of technical mumbo-jumbo and a wave of the sonic screwdriver), but the show is so rich on a symbolic and metaphorical level that it keeps drawing me back. Many of the better episodes, I can re-watch endlessly and still get something out of them. If I were doing a degree in Media Studies, I think I'd write my doctoral (heh) thesis on Who. It really is that good.
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I think
Sometimes the plot messiness can make me grind my teeth (especially when a decent setup is squandered with a resolution involving little more than a rush of technical mumbo-jumbo and a wave of the sonic screwdriver)
I... couldn't care less. I mean, unless there's actual inconsistencies that make stuff NOT POSSIBLE, I can easily look past any reversal of the neutron flow. :)
but the show is so rich on a symbolic and metaphorical level that it keeps drawing me back
<3
If I were doing a degree in Media Studies, I think I'd write my doctoral (heh) thesis on Who. It really is that good.
Oh absolutely. Buffy has been taught in universities for *years* now, it's that rich.
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The last story that kind of irked me was the one with Rory's dad in the hospital and the people with the square mouths. That had a great setup. Then you get to the spaceship and find the aliens' motives were... what, exactly? And the Doctor waved the sonic, and everything was okay. That felt anti-climactic to me. I loved the ending of Dinosaurs on a Spaceship, when the Doctor magnetizes Solomon's ship so it can't get away, then sends the missiles after it. Even if those things aren't physically possible IRL, they make sense in the context of the story, and there was a nice build-up with Solomon doing increasingly awful, sadistic things, to the point where the Doctor actually killed him. Or the build-up to the discovery that Oswin was in fact a Dalek.
I'm pretty lenient about plot logic with Who, but wasting dramatic buildup makes me cranky. ; )
LOL, Buffy Studies! I once wrote a piece dissing the Willow-Tara 'ship in fairly academic terms. It did not win me a lot of fans. : D
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Ah, but that was Chibnall. Good writer, brilliant at character/emotional stuff, but... expect the plot resolutions to be not so much. Wrote loads for Torchwood. (And now I've said the same thing twice. *g*)
I'm pretty lenient about plot logic with Who, but wasting dramatic buildup makes me cranky. ; )
Well, The Power of Three was never about the plot. Or rather, the plot was the Ponds, and the Doctor's place in their family. The alien stuff was just an excuse to get him to hang around.
LOL, Buffy Studies! I once wrote a piece dissing the Willow-Tara 'ship in fairly academic terms. It did not win me a lot of fans. : D
You are a braver person than I! I hope you escaped more or less intact from the kittens' claws? (Also I am curious now.)
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Also, I could take or leave Captain Jack as a character, Barrowman does nothing for me, and I honestly don't think he's all that talented an actor. And I never "got" the Jack-Ianto 'ship--I always felt like Ianto was just another 'way station' in Jack's romantic life. I know, I know--HERESY!!! : )
If I can find my Willow-Tara essay, I'll forward it to you (or maybe I'll post it on my own LJ and do a retrospective on it, to see if I really still feel that way). I only got a couple of letters of comment in response. Nobody really hated on me because of it. I wasn't on LJ in those days, or I'm sure I'd have been flamed into a crispy piece of carbon.
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Dinosaurs was too, which is why people were so pleasantly surprised. ;)
And I never "got" the Jack-Ianto 'ship--I always felt like Ianto was just another 'way station' in Jack's romantic life. I know, I know--HERESY!!! : )
What are you doing in my LJ??? Ianto was the love of Jack's LIFE! (Do not argue this point, 'k?) Seriously, I adored Torchwood. It was just... over-the-top and ridiculous and wonderful and stupid and made stuff canon that in other shows remained vague subtext. (And the fic. Ye gods, the fic. The fic was out of this world!) Children of Earth was amazing (I claim it RTD's masterpiece) and also completely destroyed me like nothing else on TV ever has. (Miracle Day was AWFUL though. IMHO the crack (from DW S5) ate it and no one will ever speak of it again.)
Um. I have ~feelings~ about Torchwood. Sorry.
If I can find my Willow-Tara essay, I'll forward it to you (or maybe I'll post it on my own LJ and do a retrospective on it, to see if I really still feel that way).
Oooh, that would be neat. (Also it's always fun to revisit old stuff.)
I wasn't on LJ in those days, or I'm sure I'd have been flamed into a crispy piece of carbon.
Uh-huh. I've seen people driven out of fandom. It's UGLY. /o\
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LOL about Torchwood. Honestly, it just never grabbed me. I've seen all the episodes, though (mostly because I can go over my friends' house, eat, drink, and watch TV, and it's an amusing way to pass time between seasons of Who). I thought CoE was just amazing storytelling. But Miracle Day--UGH UGH UGH, definitely got eaten by the crack in the universe. I knew it was going to be bad when I saw Jane Espenson's name crop up. And it was like four episodes' worth of story stretched out over ten episodes. I still want that ten hours of my life back. OMG, that stupid blonde lady in the CIA, I WANTED TO JUST FREAKING KILL HER FOR THE WHOLE TEN HOURS!! (Also my sister works in military security and the idea of one worker taking a name tag out of someone else's purse was just so laughable: your badge is ON and visible at all times when you work in those fields--where my sister works, they literally will fire you for not having your name tag on and visible). But I digress. ; D
I Googled my W/T article, and lo it's still up on the net! Here's the link, right here. Enjoy!
http://www.scifidimensions.com/Aug02/deathoflove.htm
Ten years out, I feel like it still holds up pretty well. My bias is obvious, but I like to think (or delude myself, heh) that I argued my case pretty well.
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Indeed.
LOL about Torchwood.
It is my poor dead gay show. I loved it entirely too much...
Honestly, it just never grabbed me.
Strange, isn't it? S1 didn't do that much for me at the time (too bleak, Jack too mysterious, Gwen... not that interesting), Ianto (and Jack/Ianto) being the only thing I really cared about.
I thought CoE was just amazing storytelling. But Miracle Day--UGH UGH UGH, definitely got eaten by the crack in the universe.
The one redeeming feature was Jack talking to Italian-bloke about Ianto. And THAT WAS IT. But that wasn't really enough to justify its existence. Crack definitely ate it. The stupid, it BURNED!
I knew it was going to be bad when I saw Jane Espenson's name crop up.
What what what? Jane E. is AWESOME. Her name gave me hope, which was then CRUELLY SQUASHED.
And it was like four episodes' worth of story stretched out over ten episodes. I still want that ten hours of my life back.
Same here. (Follow my Torchwood tag if you want to read my thoughts in more detail: http://elisi.livejournal.com/tag/torchwood)
Also my sister works in military security and the idea of one worker taking a name tag out of someone else's purse was just so laughable: your badge is ON and visible at all times when you work in those fields--where my sister works, they literally will fire you for not having your name tag on and visible). But I digress. ; D
Oh, digress aaaany time you want. :)
Ten years out, I feel like it still holds up pretty well. My bias is obvious, but I like to think (or delude myself, heh) that I argued my case pretty well.
Interesting. I don't agree with everything, but definitely think that your main point is v. good - they don't exist in any kind of 'gay' context, as if already living in a world where gay people are fully integrated. And that's... really not good. (It's interesting to compare with Ianto, where rather than going 'Gay now!' he specifically says "It's not men, it's just him. It's only him." That whole scene in the kitchen with his sister is, on the whole, wonderful and realistic in too many ways to count, but then Rusty is gay and knows all the issues intimately. Plus, Torchwood is its own little world apart, and Ianto is obviously tentative about stepping out of it and into the 'real' world where being gay is... quite different. /ramble) Anyway, thanks for linking me. Good article, well argued. Thought that Tara became interesting & gained a backbone in S6 - as soon as she got away from Willow *g* - but of course that was all cut short.
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LOL, we'll have to agree to disagree on Jane Espenson. Although I did like some of her early Buffy scripts, "Earshot" being my favorite. Her later stuff really grated on me, and I didn't care for her contributions to Miracle Day.
I will definitely read your piece on Miracle Day and get back to you later with feedback. Again: setting! I don't feel like it worked all that well in the US, although obviously we're supposed to believe TW has branches all over the world (aren't we?). Again, some of the characters just grated, and that silly American blonde bint was the worst one.
CoE was so harrowing. When you finally got the aliens' motives--that they were basically addicts using the kids as a drug source--it was utterly chilling, because the motive was so banal, and yet so horribly evil, and the reactions of the people in the government were honestly worse than the aliens themselves. CoE is like a horrible dark mirror that reflects the worst aspects of humanity. Complete sci-fi, but very believable.
Hopefully tomorrow (when I have the house to myself and can think in more depth), I'm going to post the link to the WT piece on my LJ and write up a retrospective of how I feel 11 years later. In hindsight, I think one of the disappointments is that putting Willow in a same-sex romance provided a rich vein to be mined--not unlike the college setting itself--and the writers did nothing with it. I had similar frustrations with Martha in season 3 of DW--here was an interesting character whose crazy-ass family gave her tons of motivations, and yet everything seemed to boil down to "she's in love with the Doctor." Which we'd just had two years of with Rose. **headdesk** Compare WT to JI or even Jenny-Vastra. The characters are interesting. They live in their own little 'weird/ supernatural' environments, but at the same time they also live in their larger worlds (which may or may not be so accepting). The characters are different from each other. They're interesting. Their relationships have textures. I felt like a lot of that was missing with WT--they were there just to show how 'hip' the producers were, or to provide cheap adolescent sexual gags, or to periodically preach 'gay acceptance' at the audience.
You're right that RTD being gay made a huge difference. He's lived the life, so he knows the territory. A friend of mine made the observation once that most straight male writers can't do lesbians well because "all men have girl-girl fantasies." I definitely felt (at the time) like WT were Joss Whedon's girl-girl fantasy couple.
I did like the changes in Tara in season six. In fact, the scene where she tells Willow where the dog died after Willow mind-wipes her is my absolute favorite Tara scene. I think if they'd stayed broken up (maybe with Tara coming back for a visit in season 7 to confirm that yeah, the relationship really was over), I'd have respected the 'ship a lot more. It would've been an arc where they got together, Tara grew and developed confidence, Willow's insecurity reared its head when they had a disagreement, so she magically wiped Tara's memory, Tara found out, and left, the end. Having Tara come back only to be pointlessly murdered undercut the character growth that had been done earlier in the season. It was a ham-handed motivation for Willow to "go evil" (an idea I found kind of stupid anyway, but that's another rant for another day). ; )
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Torchwood was any fic writer's dream. *deep sigh*
I was very bummed when the Hub got blown up (just as I was bummed when Angel's original digs got blown up and they moved into that stupid hotel).
I know what you mean, although the Hub was far worse. The sheer history encapsulated was extraordinary, whereas Angel's place was fairly new, all things considered. And I rather liked the hotel. And W&H. I was easy. *g* (Also TW never got a new Hub, they just drifted. Which was bad.)
I'm weird like that--location makes a difference to me--I also felt like Buffy lost something when they moved from the high school setting to the college setting (which is weird cos I work in a college, and I think there are interesting veins you could mine). God, I'm so fickle. ; )
I liked the Magic Box. I mean, I liked the Library in the High School and all that, but as I much prefer the later seasons, I'm a Magic Box gal. ;)
LOL, we'll have to agree to disagree on Jane Espenson. Although I did like some of her early Buffy scripts, "Earshot" being my favorite. Her later stuff really grated on me, and I didn't care for her contributions to Miracle Day.
I always liked her (I even watched her Eliza Dushku thing, the name of which I can't remember), but MD was a great let down. :( Esp. cause her blog was awesome and full of good writing tips.
I will definitely read your piece on Miracle Day and get back to you later with feedback. Again: setting! I don't feel like it worked all that well in the US, although obviously we're supposed to believe TW has branches all over the world (aren't we?). Again, some of the characters just grated, and that silly American blonde bint was the worst one.
We seem to be in perfect accordance as regards MD. *g* (I liked Esther, but... *shrug* So she died. It's what people do.)
CoE was so harrowing. When you finally got the aliens' motives--that they were basically addicts using the kids as a drug source--it was utterly chilling, because the motive was so banal, and yet so horribly evil, and the reactions of the people in the government were honestly worse than the aliens themselves. CoE is like a horrible dark mirror that reflects the worst aspects of humanity. Complete sci-fi, but very believable.
Just amazing. RTD at his very very best.
In hindsight, I think one of the disappointments is that putting Willow in a same-sex romance provided a rich vein to be mined--not unlike the college setting itself--and the writers did nothing with it.
*nods* I didn't see it at the time, but looking at it through different eyes, yeah.
I had similar frustrations with Martha in season 3 of DW--here was an interesting character whose crazy-ass family gave her tons of motivations, and yet everything seemed to boil down to "she's in love with the Doctor." Which we'd just had two years of with Rose. **headdesk**
It could have been worse! No seriously. If Catherine Tate hadn't agreed to come back as Donna, we'd have had another love interest. Mutual. Again. (The horrors I have discovered thanks to The Writers Tale...)
Compare WT to JI or even Jenny-Vastra.
A lot of nodding along to all of this.
A friend of mine made the observation once that most straight male writers can't do lesbians well because "all men have girl-girl fantasies." I definitely felt (at the time) like WT were Joss Whedon's girl-girl fantasy couple.
Apparently they were based on some actual friends of his (which he introduced the actors to), so I guess there's some reality in there. But that doesn't mean he couldn't have done something more.
Having Tara come back only to be pointlessly murdered undercut the character growth that had been done earlier in the season. It was a ham-handed motivation for Willow to "go evil" (an idea I found kind of stupid anyway, but that's another rant for another day). ; )
M-hm. It worked, but it wasn't exactly new or clever.
part 2
One of my favorite Jack-Ianto scenes is when Jack comes back in early season two, and he tries to pick up where he and Ianto left off... only to have Ianto pull away from him. It was so nice and so realistic that Ianto wold feel hurt and not want to just hop right back into bed with Jack. I haven't watched any TW for a while, but that scene really stuck with me.
Anyway, more to come later--hopefully I can make a proper post on my LJ tomorrow. : )
Re: part 2
And I'll get back to your long comment above, it made me very happy.
Re. Ianto, then yes. There is - somewhere, I'll hunt it down if you're curious - an analysis of the scene in the office, where Jack tries to find out where they stand now and ends up asking Ianto out on a proper date. And when I say analysis, I mean an indepth look at body language and what it all says. V. excellent.
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Thought it would come in handy as something to refer back to, when trying to explain how layered the show is.
(Have read your recent meta posts, just haven't managed to formulate coherent replies yet.)
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By the way, you *must* read Summer Falls.
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They're *wonderful*! But when do you sleep?
By the way, you *must* read Summer Falls.
Ooooh, it's out today! ::runs off to Amazon::
ETA: OK, I'm on, like, page 2, and there's a 'Curator' who is BETWEEN NAMES. Dear god. *is almost fainting from happiness*
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*beams*
I'm a pretty literal person and there's a lot in this post that I had never noticed before, so like always I really enjoyed reading what you came up with.
And yet, you make such fabulous vids! (And thank you.)
The link between the Ponds and fandom made me go "aaahhh, of course", and Clara as an allegory for the show is perfect.
Saying 'Ah, of course' is generally how I figure something must be true. :)
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So many layers, it's beautiful. I would even add a metafiction level, with River and Amy as writers especially.
The Ponds as the fandom, Clara as the show and the Doctor as England, that's spot-on. I am not familiar with James Bond but the poem is striking. Who knew Great Britain had such consistent national heros?
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*beams*
So many layers, it's beautiful. I would even add a metafiction level, with River and Amy as writers especially.
Ooooooh yes. (You've seen this, right?) Mostly I tried to stick to the layers that were easily definable - if you start really delving I'm sure there are plenty more, including sub-layers, and sub-sub-layers.
The Ponds as the fandom, Clara as the show and the Doctor as England, that's spot-on.
None of these are really 'new', or original, ideas, but I'm not sure anyone has ever put it all together before. :)
I am not familiar with James Bond but the poem is striking. Who knew Great Britain had such consistent national heros?
Oh, you should *definitely* watch some Bond. A few of the classic ones, and then Casino Royale & Skyfall. (Skyfall nearly had me falling out of my seat it was that brilliant AND it was telling *exactly* the same story as DW...)
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Looking forward to any more thoughts you might have. And I thought that those of us who do lots of meta would probably find it useful as well - it could function as a sort of guide to Moffat Who? We always talk about 'layers' so defining them seemed a good idea. :)
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Do you like His Dark Materials? (Oh, and what's your favourite book? I'm curious now.)
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I started out with Buffy (which also has a gazillion layers, and was constructed that way), so it's difficult to deal with more basic things. Not that I can't like them, but not in a proper, obsessive way.
Do you like His Dark Materials?
Never read the books on account of reading an interview with the author and getting very cross. (By all means dislike Christianity. But at least have the intelligence to dislike the actual faith/church, not the thing you made up in your head.)
(Oh, and what's your favourite book? I'm curious now.)
All time favourite book? Probably Kim, by Kipling. Am a fairly eclectic reader though.
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Totally getting you… Then again, obsession shows are so special, it's only natural that there'd be few of them, in a way.
Never read the books on account of reading an interview with the author and getting very cross. (By all means dislike Christianity. But at least have the intelligence to dislike the actual faith/church, not the thing you made up in your head.)
I see what you mean… The books were fantastic, but the religious subtext was… big, and rather questionable.
Am a fairly eclectic reader though.
Same here—that's the kind of question I hate to answer… XD I haven't read Kim…
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Plus, I can barely manage ONE show. Don't know what I'd do if I had more.
I see what you mean… The books were fantastic, but the religious subtext was… big, and rather questionable.
Uh-huh. I know I'm missing out on good stories, but I'd probably get too cross to keep reading. Which isn't good.
Same here—that's the kind of question I hate to answer… XD I haven't read Kim…
I devoured the Pern books when I was younger, and lots of Diana Wynne Jones, and Dune, and the Hitchhiker's Guide, just to put down what immediately springs to mind. Oh and Dorothy L. Sayer's Peter Wimsey novels. (He's my favourite detective!) Also love C.S.Lewis, and am slowly becoming acquainted with T.S.Eliot. (mmmm, poetry.) But Kim is the one book I can come back to, over and over and over again, and never tire of. (I sort of can't imagine watching Doctor Who without knowing Kim, btw.)
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It sounds smarter to keep away, indeed…
I devoured the Pern books when I was younger, and lots of Diana Wynne Jones, and Dune, and the Hitchhiker's Guide, just to put down what immediately springs to mind. Oh and Dorothy L. Sayer's Peter Wimsey novels. (He's my favourite detective!) Also love C.S.Lewis, and am slowly becoming acquainted with T.S.Eliot.
Aw, I don't know any of those! Heard about the Hitchhiker's Guide though…
(mmmm, poetry.)
Poetry is glorious.
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You MUST read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe. MUST. All the others are good too, but that one's obligatory. (I have no icons of towels. So Space Gandalf will have to stand in as 'Literary reference')
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And lol, Gandalf! ;D
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And Gandalf never stops being funny!
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Yeah… broken Amy. Thing is, I guess I'm more into realistic-ish psychological continuity than symbolism, which makes me a bit bothered with the treatment of that… I'm all good with feeling-repression, but brokenness always shows… in different ways, all right. But with Amy, I just feel like it gets switched on and off. At some times she really moves me, but others… I just can't feel for her properly. I wish we'd seen more of Eleventh Hour!Amy, the like that just closed her eyes tight as the TARDIS disappeared again after Prisoner Zero, the kind that said little things like "people always say that" or "people never come back". Or Amy at the times when she lost Rory, because really, Rory was basically always the steadiest, most reliable part of her life… And since she seemed to take him a bit for granted most of the time, those parts were like being shoved back into reality in the harshest way possible, and that hurt. (Maybe this also has to do with me liking emotion best when it's raw—the kind that just comes from deep within your gut and burns everything on the way out. I'm an angst girl at heart.) So yeah—I do like Amy, but she's not going to be my favourite ;) She has moments though. (Like that icon's moment ;))
/Amy rant done, sorry
The fact that he didn't sit around wallowing in this, but immediately started to fix things is one of the things that endears me to him. <3
Eleven saves the day! ;)
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I have... a stupid amount of tabs open, and will get to this at SOME point. /o\
Ow… I feel for you with that one =P that meta of yours /will/ get a comment sometime… well, maybe not sometime SOON, but definitely sometime!
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Oh I ALWAYS answer, trying to win people round! (And *I* get paranoid that there are unanswered comments and people think I'm rude or don't care or... whatever. Oh the joys of online life...)
Ow… I feel for you with that one =P that meta of yours /will/ get a comment sometime… well, maybe not sometime SOON, but definitely sometime!
I have yet to read
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Hehe… Works with me, I always like hearing different opinions and what people see in things and characters. (Actually, I feel like I'm pretty easily influenced most of the time… There is the stuff I really love and stuff I really dislike, obviously, and my own opinions, but besides I'm always trying to see things from people's perspective. For instance, I can thoroughly agree with a Moffat hater's points, which will trigger my critical side and remind me of all the Moffat things that annoy me—but then if I stumble upon some great meta post, everything will start making sense again and my faith in Moffat will make one big leap… On good days I call it being open-minded, and on bad days I'm like "do you have a brain of your own, girl?")
(And *I* get paranoid that there are unanswered comments and people think I'm rude or don't care or... whatever. Oh the joys of online life...)
Haha, same here—though I try to do so many things online I often end up a few days late anyway ;) *high fives*
I have yet to read janie_aire's or lonewytch's... /o\
All the people doing such complex meta… I just don't know how you manage it. I don't follow that many meta people yet, but the complexity of the stuff to be found out there… Some is even too complex for my tastes—coming back to the layers point you made: personally, I like peering at the layers, but though I love mythology, literature, symbolism and that kind of thing, if I really overanalyse the show, I feel like I'll lose touch with the spirit. I truly admire people who can watch, enjoy the "surface" layer, and still see so deeply, though. *quiet awe*
XD I can get so RAMBLY about my opinions. A little alarming.
Er… I just remembered you'll get three alerts because I edited this twice… Okay, that's embarrassing. XD
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I... don't tend to stray outside my flist, and even there I pick and choose whom I read re. what issue. Possibly a hangover from when my main fandom was Buffy and things were TOXIC. *shivers* So, I much prefer to look at how to spin things in a positive way, rather than grumble about what's wrong. My only exceptions are Torchwood: Miracle Day and the Buffy comics. There is no redeeming them.
Haha, same here—though I try to do so many things online I often end up a few days late anyway ;) *high fives*
If I ever leave it more than a week, please remind me. I'll probably have lost a tab, or something.
All the people doing such complex meta… I just don't know how you manage it.
Partly I can't NOT do it? I mean, I can't not notice stuff. And it's what gets me excited. I can pinpoint the exact moment I fell into obsession with Doctor Who (Sound of Drums) because suddenly there was PROPER meta in the show. It was like magic. Everyone else then got cross about Tinkerbell!Doctor and so forth when the finale aired, but I wrote a 10,000 word essay on Time Lords and humanity and monsters and fire and... everything. SO happy. Mind you, I do like the surface layer too. ;)
XD I can get so RAMBLY about my opinions. A little alarming.
I really need to reupload my Rambling icon...
Er… I just remembered you'll get three alerts because I edited this twice… Okay, that's embarrassing. XD
Oh don't worry. I still remember what it was like before you could edit comments - editing is MAGIC and wonderful. <3
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I get that… ;) That's what I do with fics and meta articles too, actually—I mostly meant discussing with various DW friends, sorry if that wasn't clear.
Possibly a hangover from when my main fandom was Buffy and things were TOXIC. *shivers*
Argh =/
Partly I can't NOT do it? I mean, I can't not notice stuff. And it's what gets me excited.
That's brilliant—being so good at stuff and enjoying it so much ;) (Mind you, we're often the best at stuff that makes us passionate…)
I really need to reupload my Rambling icon...
Ever the useful icon!
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No worries. :)
That's brilliant—being so good at stuff and enjoying it so much ;) (Mind you, we're often the best at stuff that makes us passionate…)
Exactly. And then it's sort of an education in itself. Thanks to fandom I've read T. S. Eliot and Dante and all kinds of other things. :)
Ever the useful icon!
And here it is! Made for me by
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That's amazing! :D (Haha, reminds me of ALL THE STUFF I should read…)
And here it is! Made for me by dtissagirl way back when... (Feel free to snag, as long as you remember to credit!)
It looks sweet =)
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Aaaand I've just thrown more at you! heh. (And oh, I read SO MUCH LESS than I used. *sigh* I love reading, but time is not my friend.)
It looks sweet =)
It's from back when we only had the S5 trailer and that ONE scene from Vampire of Venice where he talks about rambling. I liked him already...
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It's okay, I'm always after good fic to read… :) Though I've got enough to last me two years, probably, given my rhythm.
(And oh, I read SO MUCH LESS than I used. *sigh* I love reading, but time is not my friend.)
So getting you… =/ I mostly lack time to read online, because I want to do ALL THE THINGS! So my fanfic list gets WILD… I would love to read more books, too, but I can't afford to buy them all the time, my library card expired and I might move soon so it's silly to get a new one now, and I could read ebooks, but that would fall on my Internet time again. So I just reread stuff =P Luckily, I've got books I forgot or didn't value as much as I should have the first time, so I can rediscover them blissfully… Like Catcher in the Rye atm, or Angelica.
It's from back when we only had the S5 trailer and that ONE scene from Vampire of Venice where he talks about rambling. I liked him already...
Sold from the start, then? ;) I didn't have that expectation time, since I only watched the whole series last year so I could jump straight from Doctor to Doctor—I hated the first five minutes of Eleven, but then he stole my heart and by the end of Eleventh Hour I was his ;)
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Eleven saves the day! ;)
Except when other people do! ;)
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Character discussion is the best thing…
Except when other people do! ;)
Oh yes. All the companion moments of glory <3
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*high fives*
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ETA: What I mean is that original characters are the most peculiar things, because I know they didn't exist before I created them, yet they feel more like I *discovered* them? They have layers and issues and problems and personalities and background stories and most of all they DEMAND to be written. SO strange. And I could talk about them forever...
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That's interesting, and very true =) It's like they're born from you, not just put together. They're beings =) What kind of original stories/characters do you usually write? Just curious.
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They really, really are.
What kind of original stories/characters do you usually write? Just curious.
So far, just one giant sprawling 'verse: Not the Last. It's an AU wherein the Master and Lucy had a son (Alexander Saxon) during the Year That Never Was, and initially it was just a fairly short fic about how a child changed the dynamic between the Master & the Doctor. (The Master agrees to be the Doctor's prisoner, you see, once time reverses, and the Doctor in many ways is the boy's main father-figure.) Except then the child suddenly - seemingly out of nowhere - became a fully fledged 3 dimensional character and well... Follow the link, and you'll see the result. /o\ If you read any of the stories (they can all be read independently, and most of them are short - by my standards - except for 'Dating') I will be ETERNALLY GRATEFUL!
Anyway, Alex was my first, but he soon got a lot of friends...
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That sounds pretty fascinating actually! I love the Master and Lucy, and the idea sounds like it has a lot of potential… Definitely adding that to my to-read list. Now, that doesn't mean you'll hear anything soon, cause yeah… it's The List… But it's there :)
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They are wonderfully emotional, humanist and feminist Victorian penny dreadfuls with far better writing.
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I love how Amy and River both are part of the stories even as they record those stories- River in her blue diary and as Melody Malone and in the library (GOD THAT LIBRARY) and Amy as a child play acting as finally as Amelia Williams. I found it interesting that Clara said she always hated history in The Rings of Akhaten. Such an opposite to Amy and River.
Also, love the references to Sherlock and Skyfall- we already know that we are both on the same page with that ;)
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Totally my pleasure! :)
I love how Amy and River both are part of the stories even as they record those stories- River in her blue diary and as Melody Malone and in the library (GOD THAT LIBRARY) and Amy as a child play acting as finally as Amelia Williams.
Wonderful, isn't it? If I tried to chart it all I'd never stop...
(GOD THAT LIBRARY)
I LOVE IT IN EVERY WAY POSSIBLE!!!
I found it interesting that Clara said she always hated history in The Rings of Akhaten. Such an opposite to Amy and River.
I wonder where that is leading...
Also, love the references to Sherlock and Skyfall- we already know that we are both on the same page with that ;)
Indeed. :)
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That line really stuck out to me too. I don't quite know what to make of it yet, but it's definitely a thing . . .