The Father Will Kill the Son.

[elisi]

Thanks to Kiki_May and promethia_tenk I went and hunted down a vid I remembered, but had lost. And I've been flailing ever since and now need to share it with you, since it's possible you don't know it...

Ruiner by danegen. Summary: Angel, Spike, Connor (daddy issues)

I can't say anything other than WATCH IT! It's brilliantly edited and the visual parallels will FLOOR you. Also... Angel. Damn. To quote Promethia:

But then, AtS just gets my vote all over for taking a hockey stick to the shins of the hero narrative and leaving it on its back, wondering what happened.

Which we've known from the beginning, actually (esp if you count 'Amends' as the first AtS episode. Which I do):

“It’s not the demon in me that needs killing, it’s the man.”

Or, to quote Philip Larkin:

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

So in conclusion: Watch the vid. SO GOOD!

Comments

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

I watched it years ago, but I never saved it.

Thank you for the link. Just watched it again. It's fucking brilliant. Sometimes I forget how violent that show was. How much love was equated with violence, and how Angel et al continue to conflate the two. Such a fucked up dynamic, and this vid captures the perpetuation of it just *perfectly*.

Joss insisted Angel and Spike had a big brother/little brother dynamic, but he's so wrong. That shit is father/son all the way to the wall.

[elisi]

I watched it years ago, but I never saved it.
I think I have it SOMEWHERE, but I can't find it. And when the two lovely ladies in question commented on my Spike on AtS. (It's all about Angel...) meta I promised to hunt it down. And then was totally floored when I found it again.

It's fucking brilliant. Sometimes I forget how violent that show was. How much love was equated with violence, and how Angel et al continue to conflate the two. Such a fucked up dynamic, and this vid captures the perpetuation of it just *perfectly*.
*nods a LOT* And the visual parallels are just incredible. (It's funny, watching it with Mark's review of Lovers Walk still in my head. Good grief, the kid knows NOTHING. I'm not saying he's watching it 'wrong', but I think he has no concept of how the show works yet. Love is pain. Reality bends to desire. It's about power. Blood is life. There are always consequences. Death is your gift. And, of course, almost everything can be sorted with a fight - physical violence becomes a metaphor for the the internal turmoil to quite a ridiculous degree... Did you ever see 'Coin-Operated Boy'? It focusses on Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Riley and Buffy/Spike, and beautifully highlights the way Buffy holds back with Riley, and it's one of the reasons it can't work.)

Joss insisted Angel and Spike had a big brother/little brother dynamic, but he's so wrong. That shit is father/son all the way to the wall.
TOTALLY. (Did you ever read my posts on Why We Fight? I turned into a little ball of shippiness...)

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

I'm not following that Mark guy. I'm not remotely interested in a dude's interpretation of my show.

I'm not sure if I ever read your meta? But that ep was just. Jesus. Angel was there because *Spike* was there. There's no other way to interpret that.

Throughout both series it's canonical that Angel has feelings for all the vamps he made- either by teeth or lessons- and it doesn't end. He won't kill Spike or Dru even though he *knows* they're going to try and kill him. He won't let Buffy stake Spike. He has dreams about Penn. He doesn't want to kill Spike when he comes back from the dead. He takes a stake for Spike in the Illyria AU.

And Spike clearly has feelings back for Angelus (no more soul? this is great! and the *giggling*, dear god, the *giggling*) although what he feels for Angel is mostly negative (albeit sexual and very very confused) until S5 AtS as far as I can tell. Things change around "Damage", when Spike finally gets a glimpse of how Angel sees things wrt their past. And in the comics Joss wrote, Spike is willing, almost eager, to turn a human Angel rather than let him die, which horrifies Connor.

*sigh*

OTP forever.

[elisi]

I'm not following that Mark guy. I'm not remotely interested in a dude's interpretation of my show.
I find him very entertaining. Especially laughing at his pain - I've never known anyone to be so OTT. (Mind you, I can't read his Doctor Who ones at all. It's like they physically repel me. He's just coming from such a different angle to me that I can't get my head around it at all.)

I'm not sure if I ever read your meta? But that ep was just. Jesus. Angel was there because *Spike* was there. There's no other way to interpret that.
Totally. (AtS S5 re-watch meta here in case you're curious.)

Throughout both series it's canonical that Angel has feelings for all the vamps he made- either by teeth or lessons- and it doesn't end. He won't kill Spike or Dru even though he *knows* they're going to try and kill him. He won't let Buffy stake Spike. He has dreams about Penn. He doesn't want to kill Spike when he comes back from the dead. He takes a stake for Spike in the Illyria AU.
Mmmmm. It's all show-don't-tell. (Which is one reason I love it so.)

And Spike clearly has feelings back for Angelus (no more soul? this is great! and the *giggling*, dear god, the *giggling*) although what he feels for Angel is mostly negative (albeit sexual and very very confused) until S5 AtS as far as I can tell.
I think it's one of the things I'm most grateful to TGiQ for - the fact that we saw William and Angelus as just friends who got along. I'm not saying it wasn't hugely screwed up, but it's nice to know that there *were* good times, and that the giggling (and the hug in School Hard) weren't anything out of the ordinary. The main problem in S2, I think, was the lack of Darla to balance things out and keep Angelus in check.

Things change around "Damage", when Spike finally gets a glimpse of how Angel sees things wrt their past.
The ways I love Damage are impossible to count.

And in the comics Joss wrote, Spike is willing, almost eager, to turn a human Angel rather than let him die, which horrifies Connor.
Iiiiiinteresting. I like it.

OTP forever.
And ever and ever.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

I SO agree about Darla- she's the wild card, the Mommy figure in all those glorious fucked up Daddy issues. Without her, the dynamic is completely different. And I stand by my assessment that Angel NEVER would have killed her either, if she hadn't threatened Buffy directly. The things vampires do for Slayer-love. *G*

[elisi]

I wrote a double-drabble about that once: Dust. I think you'll like. :)

[kikimay]

Thanks to you! Now I have a nice new vid.
Uhm ... in some ways I think Joss is right: Angel is like a big brother ("been there, done that") for Spike but, as brothers usually do, the role can be easily reversed (the little brother protecs the older, for example) Kinda fits with my idea of OTP FOREVAH! *^*

[kikimay]

But, of course, father and son will be more appropriate. I always think that "erastes" and "eromenos" are perfect for them. The terms are greek, meaning "lover" and "loved" and fits perfectly with both Angelus' and Spike's roles. Gah, still OTP!

[elisi]

Have you ever read girlpire's Friday? It is... *has no words* Very long though. Very, very, very, very, VERY long. <3

[kikimay]

I wrote a Spangel with 46 chapters. This story seems to me pretty short XD I'm gonna read it, at soon as possible!

[elisi]

Um, every chapter is like... 20,000 words? At LEAST.

[kikimay]

I don't think so! Awh, this fic have chapters SO long? I have to reconsider my opinion! But I'm a good reader, I like long stories! *w*

[elisi]

But I'm a good reader, I like long stories! *w*
Oh it's worth it. I remember DEVOURING it back when she was posting it... *deeeeeeeeep sigh* (It is beautifully written. Honestly I wish I had her way with words. And parts of it are amongst my favourite things I have EVER read anywhere.)

[kikimay]

Thank you for the link!
I'm used to read in english (even if, writing, I always do a lot of mistakes >*<) and will be my pleasure! I wish I could share also my fics, because you all like spangel so much and it's great! It's like a spangel paradise!

[elisi]

I'm not sure I'd have the time for reading them anyway... *is sad*

[kikimay]

*pets her* But still, spangel love! <3

[elisi]

Spangel love is good. <3

[elisi]

For me it's all in the layers? One layer, it's father/son. Another layer is brothers. Another layer again is friendship. Another layer is rivals. Etc. etc. Add them all together, and you have Spangel! :)

[kikimay]

Yay! They have a complicated relationship! XD
I'm thinking about brothers and ... Angel and Lindsey, absolutely! They're just like brothers sometimes! XD

[elisi]

Layersssss... :)

[kikimay]

Your icon is cute! And brooding! *w*

[elisi]

*pets Puppet!Angel*

[urb-banal.livejournal.com]

I think that older brother, younger brother thing can be as complex and f**ked up as father/son, especially if the younger feels the older is the only father figure he has.

[elisi]

Well technically Angel is his grandfather... ;)

(Mostly I like how it's all kinds of things simultaneously. <3)