elisi | Review/meta on Let's Kill Hitler. SPOILERS!

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Review/meta on Let's Kill Hitler. SPOILERS!

Outside the cut, two things:

Everybody kills Hitler on their first trip...

Because it is internet history, everyone should read it, and I'll bet anything that the Moff knows it. Plus it's hilarious!

And also, from Forest of the Dead, because I’ve lost count of the number of people who I've seen mis-remembering this:

RIVER: Difficult? It'll kill you stone dead!
DOCTOR: Yeah, it's easy to criticise.
RIVER: It'll burn out both your hearts and don't think you'll regenerate!

ETA: Almost forgot! I overheard Impish Girl (age 10) talking to my father-in-law when he said he'd tried to watch LKH and not been able to get into it (he also has a tendency to fall asleep when watching anything that isn't rugby...): "Of course you can't understand it grandad! You don't even know who River Song is!" (I have rarely heard anything so patronising. So don't believe anyone who says the show is too complicated for kids!)

Sealed with a kiss
“I’m going to wear LOTS of jodhpurs!”

This might have been my favourite line out of all of them. The sheer delight in her voice was just wonderful!

Anyway, I’m basically just going to go through the episode and address things as we move along. To begin...

~

The story so far...

Allow me to drag out an observation I made at the beginning of the season:

I said then that the Doctor’s death had re-written time, which meant that we are now in an AU.

My thoughts have... evolved, but I’ll get back to this. Just wanted to point it out, because I still think we’re in an AU, so everything that happens should be taken with a certain amount of caution. Yes, what’s happened has happened, but it might be re-written... Anyway, onto the episode.

~

The crop circles were fun, and even though Mels’ entrance had River Song written all over it I didn’t twig at all. Also (especially with hindsight) love that within the 10 minutes or so that Mels was on screen she and the Doctor a) flirted, b) argued and c) discussed marriage. Hurrah for not meeting Melody as a little girl and avoiding anything squicky! \o/

(Oh God he danced with EVERYONE at the wedding. My head is still flailing. It’s the cleverest little thing, which does about 5 things simultaneously.)

~

The teslator is a FABULOUS idea. And the moment where it turns itself into the Nazi official, I was - in my head - begging for it to reach out and take the glasses off the other... AND THEN IT DID! Oh it was perfect. Really, the whole thing was a truly delightful idea. The anti-bodies (and their design), the way the tesalator worked, with all the tiny squares turning over... *flaily hands* (Darcy was rather impressed too, and reckoned that they must have a fair bit more money now, since the show - this season in particular - has just far better production values [in his not-very-humble opinion]. I said that I was pretty sure their budget has been reduced, but he didn’t believe me.)

~

Oh and Hitler. Brilliant idea, esp Rory punching him (the Centurion beginning to bleed into Rory a fair bit now, I think, although he also went straight for the hurt people, as always) and the fact that Hitler was then locked in a cupboard for the rest of the episode. (“There’s a banging in my head.”/”I think that’s Hitler in the cupboard.”) Fabulous. Esp because the whole issue is very heavy for a children’s show, and steered clear of anything particularly difficult, but those parents who want to use this as a springboard for delving into the history behind it all, can. (There’s a whole page on the official website with links.) And it also, with the Tesalator, addressed the issue of vigilantism, but it wasn’t hammered home. The Doctor disapproved (of the Tesalator, and of Hitler), and that will have been enough for most kids. There is a difference between justice and vengeance, and the episode balanced all this very well.

~

And then... Mels revealed who she was. The flashbacks were beyond adorable!

Seeing Little!Rory, especially, and getting a glimpse into ordinary everyday life was extremely delightful, and the whole situation where Amy thought that Rory was gay... Too much love! Also “I count as a boy!” was just perfect!

As for Mels, then she was a very interesting character, in that she gave Amy someone who believed in the Doctor, but someone deeply critical. (The Titanic sank because the Doctor didn’t save it! Hitler rose to power because the Doctor didn’t stop him!) And Amy and Rory are SO parental, it’s hilarious.

Plus, I couldn’t help notice that Mels kept getting in trouble (Stormcage won’t be the first time she’s seen the inside of a prison), and I love the way this showcases a young Timelady with no one to really keep her in check, who just does whatever she wants, because she can. Well I say ‘no one’ - her parents *are* there, and she clearly does care what they say. But she's still rebelling.

(Also I'm now writing Mels/Jeff in my head. Because he's pretty.)

Now as for Melody finding her parents, I’m going to borrow a line from a little later on:

"I might take the age down a little, just gradually, just to freak people out."

Firstly, this is v. clever because this allows them to use Alex Kingston for as long as they like, without worrying about the actress ageing.

But secondly (since she talks as if she already knows that taking down her age is something she can do) could Melody have lived her way to her parents from 1969 (or 1970)? “Took me years to find you,” she says. Which would make her... About 40 when we first meet Mels, which would make sense from a Timelord perspective (the Doctor talks about being ‘a kid’ aged 97), and would also make Alex Kingston’s looks quite appropriate.

Plus, re. Amy naming her baby after her friend Mels, then this makes perfect sense of something that puzzled me at the time. Melody is not a common name, and I was a little surprised that Rory accepted that Amy had named their baby already - as if baby names was something they’d discussed, when of course this was quite unlikely. But with ‘Mels’ in the picture, the name would have been a logical choice, leaving only the surname to be argued over. :)

~

Anyway, Mels regenerates.

I love how young!River is a direct continuation of Mels. Overconfident, over the top, all bravura and (quite literally) in-your-face. Also her utter delight at her new body just puts a smile on my face. I’ve always loved the Doctor’s absolute self-confidence (just see him checking himself out in the mirror in Venice), and am pretty sure this is a general Timelord trait. They’re just that fabulous! Which of course also comes with a hefty dose of arrogance...

(Also more Graduate jokes! \o/ And now Eleven code-naming River ‘Mrs Robison’ in TIA is actually even funnier, since she undoubtedly remembers ‘Hello Benjamin’, and cringes inwardly.)

Anyway, then the 'dancing' starts, and oh, the Doctor is quite enjoying himself.

“My bespoke psychopath.”

Now in my head there is this kind of ‘You shouldn’t have...’ at the end of that statement. As if Kovarian was getting him the best present *ever* (he really has a thing for bad guys - see ALLLLLLL his Master issues), and he’s actually a bit excited to have assassin!River to play with. It’s a thrill. A dance, like I said. I’m going to try to keep Buffy quotes to a minimum, but this one I NEED to bring out:

SPIKE: She was cunning, resourceful... oh, did I mention? Hot. I could have danced all night with that one.
BUFFY: You think we're dancing?
SPIKE: That's all we've ever done.

The whole thing with switching the guns around and even sparring... It’s fun and zippy and the Doctor, I think, is playing, because he knows that she’ll be his in the end, so isn’t actually taking things seriously. And then comes the kiss.

The kiss works, because... Well, he’s conditioned to kiss her, as it were. He doesn’t pull away (as a matter of fact he leans in!), because kissing is what they do. He’s clearly thinking 'Hey, even when she’s evil, I get kisses! That’s way better than the Master!’

But here’s the thing: She just kills him. It’s not a game (or not for long), and she has no emotional investment in him (unlike the Master). He’s a mark, a target, and she’s there to do her job. Which, btw, she does unbelievably well. As a weapon she is undeniably effective and efficient, and I love it to pieces!

Also see Scott Evil:

Dr. Evil: Scott, I want you to meet daddy's nemesis, Austin Powers
Scott Evil: What? Are you feeding him? Why don't you just kill him?
Dr. Evil: I have an even better idea. I'm going to place him in an easily escapable situation involving an overly elaborate and exotic death.
[...]
Dr. Evil: All right guard, begin the unnecessarily slow-moving dipping mechanism.
[guard starts dipping mechanism]
Dr. Evil: Close the tank!
Scott Evil: Wait, aren't you even going to watch them? They could get away!
Dr. Evil: No no no, I'm going to leave them alone and not actually witness them dying, I'm just gonna assume it all went to plan. What?
Scott Evil: I have a gun, in my room, you give me five seconds, I'll get it, I'll come back down here, BOOM, I'll blow their brains out!
Dr. Evil: Scott, you just don't get it, do ya? You don't.

Or Watchmen:

Adrian Veidt: I'm not a comic book villain. Do you seriously think I would explain my master stroke to you if there were even the slightest possibility you could affect the outcome? I triggered it 35 minutes ago.

River just kills him. And I think he’s quite shocked at that. It rather throws a spanner in the works, to say the least. /understatement

The rest of the episode is essentially the Doctor trying to use his last remaining moments to save her (and Amy and Rory) - somehow.

~

River laughing off the guards shooting her is DELIGHTFUL (hurrah at continuity from The Christmas Invasion!), as is her quest for clothes. Not to mention ‘Well, I was on my way to this gay gipsy Bar Mitzwah for the disabled when I thought - Gosh, the Third Reich’s a bit rubbish, I think I’ll kill the Furher!”

And can we just get the Capt John Hart parallels out of the way before we go any further? There’s the killer lipstick, the dress sense (Mmm, military jackets), and this:

“Take off your clothes!” - the way she says it... *flail-y hands*

And Amy and Rory following (Yay for Rory and the bike!) and looking for a sign... (This episode is so FUNNY! :D)

I’m also reminded of ‘Why We Fight’ and:

ANGEL: Spike's not in the S.S. He just likes wearing the jacket.

~

Now about the scene in the TARDIS with all the guilt piling on. Love that Rose is the first option in ‘Give me someone I like!’ - it’s such a light touch, tying into the past without belabouring the point, and also - with the addition of Martha and Donna - brings us to the Doctor’s admission of the fact that he screws people up. (I mean, obviously he does, and obviously he knows it, but I like having these things acknowledged.)

But other than that, I’ve seen a few people wonder what was the point. And (thanks to

owlsie, who asked this precise question), I had somewhat of an epiphany:

The thing is that he asks Amelia to give him a reason to live (or to hang on, more precisely): It's just like Bracewell! Remember the Doctor trying to get him to hang on to his humanity, and 'You're in pain, that means you're alive!'... Except that didn't work.

What did work was Amy reminding him of being in love. The same applies here. Guilt is not something that will keep you going (as Ten amply proved, and Eleven now knows) - but the simple fact that someone cares ('Fishfingers and custard') gives him the strength to go and try to save River.

Or, to quote

the_royal_anna who once said:

We don't stop being human when we lose our hearts; nor when we lose our heads. And every last vestige of humanity can be drained from us, but as long as somebody, somewhere cares, we are not dust.

~

Robot!Amy (or Tesalator!Amy I suppose) was brilliant, and so were Amy and Rory trapped inside. (Imagine me applauding anything to do with them from now on.) Very clever set-up, and used brilliantly.

And then... Cue the Doctor. Who has changed into tophat and tails because he’s dying. (Remember what I said above about the peacock nature of Timelords?) Anyway, I think this is where this particular quote comes into its own (subversion, thy name is Moffat):

She left out the part where she KILLED him...

Now, to get down to the heart of the episode - the ‘redemption’ of River Song. I’m putting the word in inverted commas, because what we get is not really a redemption story. The word ‘psychopath’ gets thrown around, but River isn’t one. She’s a weapon, conditioned to perform a certain task, and what the Doctor tries to do is make her choose a different path. Try to get her to break her programming - or more precisely, show her why she would want to.

Here, let me drag a quote out from Buffy:

GILES: Maybe. Maybe not. In my experience, there are... two types of monster. The first, uh, can be redeemed, or more importantly, wants to be redeemed.
BUFFY: And the second type?
GILES: The second is void of humanity, cannot respond to reason... or love.

Capt John Hart is a psychopath. Melody isn’t. And it strikes me that Moffat isn’t really all that interested in bad!River. By the end of the episode she’s the River we know, albeit at the very, very start. And that’s the woman Moffat is interested in. All of this was filling in the blanks of how she became who she is, and if it feels rushed, that’s probably because it is: It's background, stuff we need to know, but not all that important. We can move on with the main story now.

~

Anyway, there are obvious parallels with the Library episodes, in that this is the first time Melody/Mels/River meets the Doctor. But there are differences too. Oh are there ever. And - bizarrely - I think River comes out with more agency than the Doctor. Let me grab some screencaps and explain what I mean:

River dropped into the Doctor’s life out of nowhere, and he didn’t have a clue what to with her. He resented her relationship with his future self, her self assurance and competence, her knowledge of *him*, full stop.

And then she sacrificed herself in his stead, leaving him with massive amounts of guilt, and the desire to run away from her as fast as he could at their next meeting.

The Doctor, on the other hand, is someone Melody 'knows all about', although he clearly has quite an impact on her. He, in a very real way, impresses her just by being himself. Daft and silly and caring with every fibre of his being.

But here’s the important part: Mels doesn’t know who River is.

“Only River Song gets to call me Sweetie,” the Doctor states (possessively), and Mels shrugs.

But River keeps coming up. It is clear to Mels that River is someone incredibly important to the Doctor, the person he needs. (It is quite fitting, metaphorically, that the Doctor can barely stand without River. She is the person he now relies on.)

And more mirroring from the Library:

RIVER: I trust this man. With my life, with everything.
~
DOCTOR: Who are you?
RIVER: Professor River Song, University of...
DOCTOR: To me. Who are you to *me*?

What LKH does so well is *show* young!River who River is to the Doctor, how much he trusts her. Even his final words are a message to River (I’m presuming he tells her his name - “There's only one reason I would ever tell anyone my name. There's only one time I could...”).

I am curious, now, as to ‘only one reason I ever would’. *pokes statement* What spacey-wacey thing could the Doctor’s name be used for...

ETA: I have changed my mind! And I think he tells her that he loves her. See other post for further thoughts on his name. And hey, new pictures (how much do I love all the Rose parallels?)

Anyway, to get back on track I shall quote Forest of the Dead:

RIVER: You know... it's funny, I keep wishing the Doctor was here.
ANITA: The Doctor is here, isn't he? He's coming back, right?
RIVER: You know when you see a photograph of someone you know, but it's from years before you knew them? It's like they're not quite... finished, they're not done yet. Well... yes, the Doctor's here. He came when I called, just like he always does. But not *my* Doctor.

And here LKH is far worse, because although Ten was rather hostile and argumentative, he was still ‘the Doctor’. In LKH, Eleven isn’t just deprived of his usual support, she is actively ~~fighting~~ him.

Anyway, when Mels discovers that she is River - or could be River, if she chose - bringing him back isn’t so much a sacrifice as an investment. She essentially (although at a steep price) creates herself a partner for whom she’ll be vitally important. (Is it any wonder she fears the day when he won’t know her?)

So yeah, despite the ways in which she’s been stolen and manipulated, by the end she is proactive, choosing her future. And I appreciate that.

Plus, it’s not just the fact that he cares, or trusts her so implicitly. That’s part of it, definitely, and the thing that spurs her into action. But when she makes her choice, it’s more than that, because she knew he was ‘good’ already. It’s the ‘clever and mad and wonderful’ that clinches the deal, I think. Because he puts on a show for her, gets dressed up, laughs in the face of death (Rule 27: Never knowingly be serious), spins everything around like a kaleidoscope and is just endlessly fascinating. Anyone who sees ‘goodness’ as dull, and ‘badness’ as exciting (notions Mels would certainly ascribe to), need only to actually *meet* the Doctor to see how mistaken they’ve been.

Plus, and I think this is worth mentioning - the Doctor (who can be arrogant as hell, as she has seen already), is not above begging for help when he needs it. Not for himself, but for those he loves. Plus, of course, he orders the Tesalator not to *dare* harm River in any way, and gets Amy and Rory to stop their punishment of her - risking their own lives.

(“Imagine what that does to a girl.”)

So her realisation at the end is essentially that she’s killed her perfect man...

~

There are also obvious parallels with Parting of the Ways:

And although the former was the Doctor sacrificing himself for the woman he loved, and the latter is River sacrificing herself for the man she will love, the parallels are still much too obvious to miss. (Would Nine have given up all his remaining regenerations for Rose? I don't think I need to answer that.)

Not to mention that Rose, in that moment, is as close to a Time Lady as the show gets until River comes along.

(ROSE: I can see everything. All that is... all that was... all that ever could be.
DOCTOR: That's what I see. All the time. And doesn't it drive you mad? )

Plus, it is Rose and the TARDIS, and River is a child of the TARDIS... The TARDIS is really quite interfering when it comes to looking after her thief. :)

The River/Rose parallels just keep piling up. Not just that Rose got her own bespoke human!Doctor, and the Doctor, in River, got a bespoke Timelady, but the fact that Rose and River in many ways echo each other.

MICKEY (quietly): If you go back, you're gonna die.
ROSE (completely confident): That's a risk I've gotta take. 'Cos there's nothing left for me here.
~
AMY (scolding, but proud): You used up all the rest of your regenerations. You shouldn’t have done that.
RIVER: Shut up, mother.

Or, to quote my own fic, where River meets Rose and says this:

“I think what I wanted to say is… He has travelled with so many people, but there are very few like you and me. Because choosing him every time comes with a price that most people balk at - and rightly so, probably. And yet, I'm sure you wouldn't change a thing. Am I right?”

~

Going back to a previous point, then I love that we can see how young ‘Mels’ is. ('Little Melody Pond, still such a child inside...') These two moments especially stand out, and Alex’s acting is just amazing:

The sudden helplessness, the way all the bravura fades away, leaving only a confused child... It’s incredible.

And yet, the Doctor doesn’t treat her as a child. He leaves her behind, on her own, in the 51st century, expecting her to float like a butterfly... And indeed she does.

All of which once more confirms that he doesn’t see or treat her as a companion, and never will. He did his best to save her (because she saved him, and because he's the Doctor), and he will always be there to catch her (because that is their game, and he owes her)... But she doesn’t need his protection. Quite the opposite in fact:

I love to distraction that he tells her to her face. (And that she quotes it so calmly in TBB.) I have a kink for truthful liars about the width of a galaxy, so the perfection of this cannot be overstated.

Plus it's echoed a fic I read recently (To be continued by

honeynoir). Actually MOST of the episode echoed various fics, including the big showdown, with River trying to kill the Doctor all kinds of different ways... (Which

owlsie and I wrote, except with little!Melody.) But LKH was much better! ♥

~

Oh and the continuity was off the scale. We got the origin of about a million different things, such as:

Hello Sweetie.
The reason River is in the 51st century
The reason she studied archeology
The diary
All the rules
Spoilers

And there was clever tying in of so many lines. (I love the echoed 'Amazing' from the end of AGMGTW. They both are. Very much.)

~

Now, going back to the start...

We are in an AU.

Moffat has said that the Doctor’s reputation has become to big, so he is trying to undo it, and the way he is doing it is obviously by letting the Doctor’s reputation impact the story overtly.

”And now they've taken a child... the child of your best friends... and they're going to turn her into a weapon, just to bring you down. And all this, my love...in fear of you.”

They stole a child, and that child grew up to kill the Doctor on the 22nd of April 2011:

But from a Doylist perspective we KNOW that this can’t be final. Plus ‘Something has happened to time’ we get told in one of the trailers...

So my thinking is currently this: That somehow the Doctor’s reputation will be undone (how I don’t know. Nor do I know how this fits in with the Silence), and the effects ripple through time, Kovarian and co will never steal Melody and thus the Doctor won’t be killed, and River might not end up in prison.

Now how far the ripples will go, I can’t predict. But I’m guessing that something like the above will happen.

As for the whole ‘The first question’ etc, allow me to direct you towards this post by

promethia_tenk, who delves into The Fisher King, rather than The Hitchhiker’s Guide.

And to finish off, because she’s clever and says it very well, here’s Promethia (I'm cutting and pasting this time) talking about the endgame:

...This isn't dark!River. This isn't quite River at all, or any person at all. Watching this episode, I spent a lot of time with my eyebrows furrowed at the screen going "how did they do that to her?" If she was properly dark, she'd have motivations of her own: purpose. But it's not that; it's like they hollowed her out. She's nothing but her own . . . reactivity and the simple goal of killing the Doctor. This is where I think the dual timelines come in because she's not a full person--not even a broken one. If she was properly dark, then a redemption storyline would make sense and you'd believe that she could reform herself and become River and this could be her origin story. But there's just not enough there to reform.

[Some people] talk about Moff and his multiple timelines and rewritings and how that annoyed them and they feel like he was trying to have it all, which I can totally see how it could feel that way. Myself, I see it a bit differently: I think he's doing a bit of a deconstruction of the individual, with different parts of each person separated in different timestreams so we can see them separately and then united in the person's memories so that they are whole again. A couple people have compared River in this episode to Moff's Jekyll, and I think that is spot on. This isn't a full person: this is River's crazy and a killer instinct separated out in its own body. The point in Jekyll wasn't that one side or the other of him won, but that they had to be united to realize their full potential. I think that's what will happen here, but with River's two lives as Kovarian's weapon and as Amy and Rory's daughter.

See also the Christmas special, where River was represented symbolically by both Abigail *and* the space shark to the Doctor's Kazran. Kazran was the one who took pity on the shark when it was trying to kill them because she was hungry and that's all she knew, but Abigail was the one to calm the shark through her singing, and at the end of the day Abigail singing *and* the shark in the sky as the transmitter working together were what saved the day.

To quote Buffy one final time. (Anya was a vengeance demon for around 1000 years before becoming human again):

...before I knew you, I was like a completely different person. Not even a person, really... and I had seen what love could do to people, and it was ... hurt and sadness. Alone was better. And then, suddenly there was you, and ... you knew me. You saw me, and it was this ... thing. You make me feel safe and warm."

It's not a perfect match, but Melody-the-weapon isn't really her own person, and she too chooses to risk the pain of becoming a person for the sake of someone who *sees* her. (Of course she is fortunate in knowing that the gamble will pay off... *g*) And she becomes quite literally a different person, as shown by the name change - names are very, very important, and I can't help wondering what role the Doctor's true name will play.

Anyway, we've already got Rory/The Last Centurion as two separate people who are also the same, so doing the same to River wouldn’t surprise me at all. Especially not if this would somehow be instrumental in fixing time.

(Also see River Tam, and her integration of her two halves etc.)

Mostly though everything's confusing, because causes and effects are still up in the air. Time is in flux...

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only | Expand All

Second of all, the AU. I think we're about halfway into an AU. Because I still expect 'Black Spot' to be relevant to the season-long arc and we've got two whole universes in the same parking space. Furthermore, I think the most prominent example of that is that we're meeting two different Rivers. It would make a little more sense out of the "our lives are back-to-front" business. I think the universe will end up splitting around some decision that River makes. This theory will probably turn out to be complete crack, but I'm sticking to it for now.
First of all, the 'back to front' thing was merely River speaking poetically. (Moffat cleared this up in an interview!) So don't worry about that. And yes, we're obviously not done with the AU yet... It won't get resolved until the finale, and I think I am absolutely behind you in that it will probably be River who does something.

Third of all, I'm surprised you didn't pick this out because it fits well with everything-goes-back-to-the-Library. The Justice Department seeks people out "near the end of their established timelines". And now that they've seen Melody Pond regenerate into the body of River Song, they can make that connection. So, I think we'll see them trying to interfere in the Library and the Doctor trying to stop them. Eventually they talk, the Justice Department insists that she needs to be punished, and they arrive at the idea that she should be sent to Stormcage.
Hmmm. I agree and disagree. That is - I think The Justice Department were a one off, and I very much doubt that the Library episodes will be interfered with in any way shape or form. Although I almost mentioned that they punish people 'at the end of their lives', which neatly ties into Melody becoming River. However, the whole Stormcage thing is... a bit of headache. I have suspected her of going to prison for the Doctor's sake (taking on his reputation), but how this will work overall if time gets reset I don't know, since I'm pretty sure she'll still end up in prison...

Fourth, it does seem quite likely that Melody could have lived her way to her parents' time. Consider that the First Doctor is meant to be around 800+ years old. And Eleven in 'TiA' has been going for 200 years. They both look pretty good, considering.
I'm glad you agree on Melody living her way to her parents, although the Doctor's age is... Well. Old!Who is all over the place. New!Who set the Doctor's age at 900 (and has him stealing the TARDIS age 200), so it still fits.

Fifth, I don't think it was the name. Not yet. I think it was as simple as "Tell River Song I love her." To which Melody replies, "Well, I'm sure she knows."
Yeah, I've completely changed my mind! 'I love you' it is! :)

Although I'm sure the name will be an important thing when it happens. Ever since 'The Shakespeare Code' I've been reminded of Angel season four, "...too many are knowing your names...takes your power away."
Names are SO IMPORTANT. I have a theory, but it's a bit spoilery for the finale so I'll not mention it.

And this post does help me feel a little bit better about River's agency, but I'm still not completely happy with it. I'm able to turn off that part of my brain and enjoy the story, but I wish I didn't have to.
I really don't have a problem with it at all. It's like the Gangers - it's all about choosing what to be. Yes she was programmed to kill the Doctor, but it's very much an echo of Rory... Did you have problems with him killing Amy (lack of agency) and then atoning (grasping agency and self)?

I like that she's grasping agency and self. I really do. I also like that she wants to redeem herself for killing a good man. My problem is that all of that got centered around making tremendous sacrifices for a man she barely knows.

I had less of a problem with Rory's version because it was easier to buy it. He'd known Amy for years and loved her well enough that they were about to be married. At this point, River has known the Doctor for a few hours.

It's like the end of high school and a young woman has been accepted to a really prestigious universtiy, but the young man she started dating last month (who she assumes, of course, is the man of her dreams) is only going to a community college and she decides to change her whole life to suit him. Melody gave away a significant part of her future for a man she just met.

It helps that we know she'll be happy with that choice ("Not those times. Not one line. Don't you dare."), but I still don't like it for Melody at the time of LKH. Even her sacrifice in the Library makes sense. There she's at the end of her run, she knows for herself that the Doctor is worth it, and makes a choice to protect that timeline. But in LKH it's so different.

I feel like it's trying to make women too simple. Once they find a man, they immediately fall in love and give up everything for him. And we do have strong evidence that she has her own independent life, which helps, but Melody in LKH doesn't know that. Her sacrifice is only validated by the foreknowledge; it doesn't stand on its own. LKH works when you take her whole timeline into account, but in terms of the character Melody at the time, it feels very contrived. Honestly, it reeks of RTD where all the women fall in love with the God-like Doctor because he's so God-like.

Giving up her regenerations just didn't sit well with me. What's more, it was very unnecessary. We already knew she'd be in Alex Kingston's body for the rest of her life once she got there. Moffat could have had her save him with just crazy magic post-regeneration energy. It didn't have to be giving up everything. I don't like that part of it at all.

Maybe I'm just too cynical to appreciate love-at-first-sight stories and leaps of faith. Although, as I said, I'm able to turn off that part of my brain, but I really wish I didn't have to in order to enjoy the story.

This, for me, is where thinking of the characters more symbolically helps (and River is pretty much built of symbolism). Because this is simplistic if you're thinking of them strictly as you would real people. But in some ways the Melody we see here is more half a person (as Jekyll and Hyde were each half of the same person). It's as if to get her to accept her programming, they had to cripple half her faculties, and what we have left is all this crazy, directionless reactivity (she pretty much just bounces around like a ball, reacting unpredictably to things), that drive to find and kill the Doctor, and some basic, primitive drives for human connection (she seeks out her parents). She's not that young woman you propose with so much going for her and a promising future she throws away for a man: she's basically hollow and has nothing but the goal to kill the Doctor which she'd now fulfilled and the people in the room who seem to want her. It's a choice between death/emptiness and life/connection--the primitive fundamentals of human relationships with all the reasoning and tempering and culture stripped away.

I suspect that by the end of the season time will be rewritten and the Ponds will get their baby back and River will remember this life as the Doctor's killer (like Rory did his life as a Roman), but that she'll get into her life with the Doctor in a much more sensible and less precipitous way.

Admittedly, this kind of writing is where Moff runs afoul of people who say he can't write characters. I'd argue he writes nothing but characters--all that crazy plot and deaths and rebirths and timey-wimey is all characterization--but it's a far more abstract and symbolic way of approaching characterization than most writers take.

Sorry for rambling at you, but I feel in a weird position of both totally agreeing with pretty much every criticism that's getting lobbed at this episode while also feeling like, actually, none of this is like what people are saying at all.

I get the half-a-person thing. I get that she's making a step up and not a step down. The life she could have with the Doctor is the life she wants for herself. And that is a very important factor.

I just think Moffat could have shown all of that without crippling her faculties. And I don't mean the brainwashing, I mean what she's giving up for the Doctor. She's giving up something that makes her who she is. She's giving up something that makes her more of an equal to the Doctor than anyone else in the universe. Even though we know she won't regenerate again, to take away that potential feels very, very wrong to me.

Also, even though I understand the half-a-person thing, I don't like it. I hate the idea that you're only half a person unitl you're half of a couple. This is a message that is *everywhere* in popular media and I hate it every time. It's even worse to see it turned into a literal part of the plot.

Admittedly, this kind of writing is where Moff runs afoul of people who say he can't write characters.

I'm very willing to credit Moffat with being able to write characters. There are people who do it better, but he does it quite nicely. He does it sometimes in very subtle ways, and sometimes in very abstract ways, but there is definitely characterization.

At least the Doctor has the decency to look ashamed of himself afterwards. Honestly, I'm very cross with him for this episode. He feels guilty though, so at least that earns him something.

River: He said no one could save him, but he must have known I could.
Eleven: Rule one...the Doctor lies.
(6x08 'Let's Kill Hitler')

Ten: It's not like I'm an innocent. I've taken lives. And I got worse; I got clever. Manipulated people into taking their own.
('The End of Time - Part 2')

Davros: The Doctor. The man who keeps running. Never looking back becasue he dare not...out of shame.
(4x13 'Journey's End')

And it also really reminds me of this from Buffy 3x22 'Graduation Day'.

Xander: Well, it's just good to know that when the chips are down and things look grim, you'll feed off the girl who loves you to save your own ass.

At least Buffy healed. She got back to her full and normal capacity. River comes away from this diminished. I suppose that technically it's a trade-off. Regenerations and power for humanity and agency. I just think Moffat should have left her with both. The Doctor gets to have both, why shouldn't River?

But the Doctor is ashamed. It could be argued that it was necessary for her to give up what she tried to take from the Doctor: all remaining regenerations. There may be a part of the Doctor that feels the exchange was fair, but he still feels ashamed.

Eleven: There must be someone left in the universe I haven't screwed up yet.
(6x08 'Let's Kill Hitler')

And he does what he can for her after the damage has been done. He takes her to the best hospital in the universe and he gives her the chance to live her own life and to utilize the full extent of the agency she has now gained. The Doctor understands better than anyone what she has just given up for him and so he tries to give back what he can.

And honestly, what she has gained is probably greater than what she has lost. Mostly, I just wish for Melody/River's sake that she didn't have to lose so much in order to progress as a person.

And I really disagree with the message it sends. It's very similar to my problem with Edward and Bella form Twilight. The idea that once you meet your significant other, nothing else matters.

Granted, it's all completely validated by the foreknowledge. By the fact that we know this is the life she would choose, even when faced with the idea that it could be rewritten.

Ten: Time can be rewritten.
River: Not those times. Not one line. Don't you dare.

And so we, the audience, know that this is the life she wants. And we know that she has her own autonomy. And we know that this is her chance to wake up and be truly alive. This is all good, but it doesn't completely nullify the problems I have with it.

Sorry for rambling at you

Oh, ramble on. I'm enjoying the discussion. =D

Also, even though I understand the half-a-person thing, I don't like it. I hate the idea that you're only half a person unitl you're half of a couple. This is a message that is *everywhere* in popular media and I hate it every time. It's even worse to see it turned into a literal part of the plot.
...
And so we, the audience, know that this is the life she wants. And we know that she has her own autonomy. And we know that this is her chance to wake up and be truly alive. This is all good, but it doesn't completely nullify the problems I have with it.

I agree, I understand the idea behind it, but I didn't like part of the way it was presented, because it did feel like River had to give up too much for her life with the Doctor. The way it was presented showed her giving up so much that she placed herself as less than the Doctor, when before, when she was "single" she was his equal (and in her ability to control her regenerations, even slightly superior).

There is that whole cultural thing, that women give up their lives for their men. Which may or may not be true, on a case to case basis. But as a cultural expectation, even as an unthinking "good" is still very very annoying.

(This is going to be another multi-part post. I swear, I should just write a novel. On to part 2 -->)

Part 2

It's weird that the same writer who makes Rory the whupped one, which has the man taking the wife's name, and generally has the woman wearing the pants in the family, is also the one who shows that woman as having no ambition beyond her relationship as a wife and mother. Amy is both incredibly liberated, and incredibly cliched as "women only want to find a man and get married."

Now he's done it to River, who, before, was the epitome of kickass independence. She didn't need the Doctor, which is what made her stand out so much from all his previous Companions and relationships. She could get around in the universe and have her own adventures all by herself. She only called him on special occasions when his expertise was necessary, but never gave up her own expertise or facility even while supporting him. She lost nothing by being with him. It was one of those incredibly rare, actually equal relationships. (Virtually all relationships have a heirarchy. In our culture it's generally the man then the woman, with the man always expected to be the dominant part of the relationship. Yet with River and the Doctor, before this revelation, that heirarchy was always situational. Sometimes he led, sometimes she did, and both were willing to follow the other when the situation called for it. It wasn't a power struggle (despite the flirty fighting) it was always a partnership, not a set "Leader/follower" dynamic.)

I do think we will still see River in subsequent stories as mostly the same as we saw her earlier ones. In LKH she is still a very young character, as she matures I think a lot of this attitude will wear off. (That's one of the only saving graces of the situation, she does react a bit like a teenager in a first crush, who sees her man as something wonderful, regardless of everything else. Fortunately, we don't remain stupid teenagers forever. No offense to actual teenagers out there, it's just a life phase and how we learn.) River will grown up, see how annoying the Doctor is on even his best days, fight with him, (I mean really disagree and fight with him on important points they can't agree on [at least they would if they were real people]) and learn from that that it doesn't make you love someone less, it makes you love them more. If you actually love them at all. Despite how irritating it is. That's one of the things I love about mature River, she's been in his life long enough that the dazzle has worn off, but the love has deepened. And I really like that. (So, yeah, it is a bit nauseating to see her basically behaving like a starry eyed teenager. Ugh. But, we all have to go through it. So long as we don't have to see it much. And, besides, in some ways, that makes me respect the Doctor more. He realized at this point in her development, River is crushing on him, and is becoming fixated on him in a way that could inhibit her development. So he removes himself from the equation. He can't be around her right now. She needs to live her own life, find her own strengths apart from him. (In a way, this parallels what happened when Amy jumped him. She started to become fixated on him in an unhealthy way, a way that would hurt her in the future, and the Doctor, as the mature one in the relationship, had to stop it. He had to be the one to step back and allow her a better alternative, and the space and opportunity to recognize it. For River, he leaves her to learn to live her own life, for Amy, he went and got Rory and took them on a date, to show them what they were risking.

(There's a part 3, do you believe it? -->)

Part 3

I agree though, I really don't like the attitude toward women that has cropped up in New Who. All the Companions and female guest stars are required to fall in love with the Doctor, as if that is their function in life. Ugh. I had more respect for the Classic Companions who actually seemed to have lives and aspirations of their own. Rose had no direction in life, Amy doesn't seem to, Martha appeared to just be doing what her mum thought best, and Donna was a temp waiting for the right man to come along so her life could begin.

It's exasperating. Where are the women scientists, the warriors, the women with careers and lives and plans they intend to get back to after their adventure with the Doctor is over. They were smart enough to know that this sort of life wouldn't work for a human long term. It was an adventure out of time with a friend they would never forget, but it was not their whole life. He was not their whole life. They didn't think "I'm going to travel with you forever," "with big devoted eyes." Uck.

A bit more emotional equality, instead of this repetitive, "I love you and I'm going to change my whole life for you" dreck, while he's standing off to the side looking uncomfortable with the devotion and fidgetting until he can get away.

It sort of inhibits how close a relationship he can have with his Companions in a way. By trying to make all of them a love interest of some kind, the writers actually put a distance between the wary Doctor and his mooney-eyed Companions. They're trying to cosy up, he's trying to move away. Whereas just a friend is someone he can gravitate toward, actually have a deeper relationship with without all the constricting expectations that he knows he is not going to be able to, and doesn't really want to, fulfill.

In many ways I think Donna was even closer to the Doctor than Rose or Martha because Donna didn't have any expectations of him. She wasn't expecting a house with a mortgage, or expecting that he was wearing that tight suit for her benefit. They were easy together. (So when she said, "I'm going to travel with that man forever!" I sort of gagged.

And in many ways, the Doctor's relationship with River, up to now, has seemed closer because she doesn't cling to him, she has no expectations of him other than that he be himself. And she seemed all right with that. (Didn't mean she couldn't be herself too, she was doing her level best to flirt the pants off the man. And while that seemed to make him uncomfortable, he also seemed to be enjoying it. He never actually told her to stop, never told her to not act like who she is. In fact, it seemed to intrigue him. He always kept coming back, glaring and sniping at her, and protesting and waving his hands while she'd pulling his chain, then standing really close and giving smug little secret smiles where she can't see, because he loves it.)

Okay, one more part --> (Yes, I'm talky, but I'm enjoying this discussion. Part 4 -->)

Part 4

So, Melody is young. She's still got a bit of that "glamour" about "her man" to work out of her system. But fortunately, the Doctor understands that, and he's pulled back and given her the time and the space to grow up.

And that, in the end, is, I think, what makes their relationship different to his relationship to all his other Companions. The fact that when he really begins his relationship with River, she's mature. He may have met her young, may have impressed her young. But then he steps back and gives her the time to grow up, to grow into herself. I commend Moffat for that. Despite how tantalizing the idea is of a young River traveling with the Doctor as a regular Companion, it was also a sort of squicky idea. The thought that he taught her everything she knows, that he had filled a parental or teacher or mentor role in her life, sort of felt wrong. It puts her in a subordinate position to him. And that is one reason why River and the Doctor's relationship was so interesting. Because she never was subordinate to him. Insubordinate, yes, every time. But never the dependent, never the young woman he was raising, thanks to Moff handling the relationship this way, we get to see that River doesn't just "grow up" loving him, but "grows into" loving him. She can approach the relationship as a woman, not as a girl.

And it's that mature nature of their relationship (despite all their playing and flirting and outrageousness and childish bickering, etc.) that makes it so special to me. They are both mature, full, free adults, who simply happen to delight in each other.

And I don't think that would have happened if the Doctor hadn't removed himself from her life when he did.

(Lets hope Moff doesn't screw that up now. If he starts having River acting all dewey eyed about the Doctor now, I may hurl. )

(no subject)

me-llamo-nic.livejournal.com - 2011-09-01 21:44 (UTC) - Expand

Just for the fun of it.

(no subject)

betawho.livejournal.com - 2011-09-02 02:26 (UTC) - Expand

Giving up her regenerations just didn't sit well with me. What's more, it was very unnecessary. We already knew she'd be in Alex Kingston's body for the rest of her life once she got there. Moffat could have had her save him with just crazy magic post-regeneration energy. It didn't have to be giving up everything. I don't like that part of it at all.

I was thinking about this and I don't think it's a matter of her just giving up everything for a man. (Mostly because I think that explanation reduces River.) If I think about it, that is really a pivotal decision on her part, she is rebelling against everything she was trained and taught to believe. When someone takes that big a risk, makes that big a change, they're going to want to make damn sure it works. So I do think she'd go all out to make sure he recovered, using whatever amount of energy was needed, even up to a dangerous amount. At this point, all her passion and focus has changed, it's become not about killing him but about saving him. So giving her all to it, not only makes sense, but is completely River.

However, how much does she actually know about regeneration? Would she know it was even possible to "use up all her remaining regenerations?" Or was it simply a matter of her pouring out whatever she had at the moment to make it work. What I mean is, I don't think River was deliberately giving up all her remaining lives for him. I don't think it was anything as sycophantic as that. But rather just a matter of her "giving her all" to get the result she wanted. She didn't want him dead anymore. By damn, she wasn't going to have it! (Which, by the way, is also very River. She's always refused to let him die, even stepping in to stop him.)

But, how would anyone else know she'd used up all her remaining regenerations? No one else is a Time Lord, and regeneration energy isn't even evident except during regenerations. I think the Doctor just told them she'd used up all her remaining regenerations. He'd pretty much be the only one who could know. And it was sort of true, considering he knew she died in this incarnation, so she never did regenerate again. But telling her she could no longer do it, would have multiple responses, especially at this point in her life, and with her in this state of mind.

It would encourage her to be more careful, to stop throwing her life away so easily, because this is the only one she has left now. And he wants it to last as long as possible. Also, it would go a long way in the idea of restitution. She'd killed him, but she gave up all her remaining lives to save him. So, in the cosmic scheme of things, it evens out. It doesn't leave her in his debt. It leaves her his equal. Which I think is very important. Especially for their future relationship. Had they told her, "your remaining energy from this regeneration was enough to cure him," it wouldn't have quite the same impact on her. It would be almost incidental. When, at this point, she needs to have sacrificed something.

And, in a way, that's what her final words there show, "Mother, I had to try. He said no one could save him, but he had to know I could." She needed that opportunity for redemption, and redemption only works if it has a price.

And I think the Doctor is someone who understands that. So I don't think she actually did give up all her remaining regenerations, I just think he told her that so she could feel redeemed, feel as if she'd paid the price and can move on now. And, really, it's not important whether she still has the ability to regenerate or not, because we already know she doesn't. So, for her good, I think, "The Doctor Lies."

Part 2 below, because I'm so longwinded. -->

Part 2

So, to me, it wasn't just a matter of, River being attracted to the Doctor and giving up everything for him just because she's plot-conveniently "in love" with him. Because I don't think she is yet. Fascinated by him, yes. She apparently always has been. Remember, he isn't a complete stranger to her, quite the opposite, she's been taught about him all her life, and then grew up again hearing all Amy's stories about him. And apparently dreaming of marrying him as a kid. (Which isn't really as odd as it sounds, she's been trained to be obsessed with him.) So, in a way, I think Melody would actually be quite possessive of him. He was, as they said, his "bespoke psychopath." "I'm all yours, sweetie." wasn't as flippant a remark as it sounded. She really is.

But, at the last moment, when he really is dead, when she's learned that everything she'd learned about him was a lie, he wasn't just this hugely powerful being who refused to help people by saving the Titanic or stopping Hitler, he was the exact opposite. He cared so much that he was trying to save people even though he was dying. Still caring even when he reached the point where he couldn't move.

And all this time, the one person he seemed to count on, to have affection for, the person who is "more than just a friend, I think," was this "River." Who was this usurper who had such a hold on her Doctor. He was her's, he'd been hers her whole life, his life in her hands. Yet he kept talking about this River person (that must have got to her) "Who was she? Tell me about her?" There's a bit of jealousy in there. And perhaps a bit of envy. Because the Doctor is so much more than she'd known.

Then, to find out, that while her life had been so bound up in his, in pain and rage and revenge. His life has been equally as bound up in hers, but in love and admiration and loyalty.

Hell, yeah, "Is he worth it?" One last check, even though she'd obviously already made her mind up. One last confirmation not based on her own screwed up perceptions, but on the opinion of good, solid people. People who know him intimately. "Yes, yes he's worth it."

"Good, stand back, I'm going in with the big guns!"

Psychophantic (new word! fits though, both psycho- and sycophantic) not so much. She's not saving him just because he's too cute to die but because it's time to change things. And from the look of things, it would be a change for the better. No more programming, no more Silence, no more life not her own, no more external control. Just her. Her choices.

And, well, it doesn't hurt that he's cute. "Hello, sweetie..."

What Promethia said.

There is a lot of consternation over the fact that River's life is so completely wrapped around the Doctor, when this episode demonstrates with perfect clarity his life revolves around her too, by now. And because of the timey-wimey nature, because he's already lost her, he can give himself completely.

It makes my head hurt, but I also love it.

this episode demonstrates with perfect clarity his life revolves around her too

Fair enough. At least they're equal on that front.

she's been trained to be obsessed with him

Which squicks me quite a lot.

As I said before though, I'm coming to understand that this does make sense for Melody in the situation. I'm just pissed with Moffat know for putting her in the situation. And it still feels unnecessary.

I love this too much for words. 'The Doctor lies'. He says it, right there. Oh it's all too perfect! ♥

(Mostly because I think that explanation reduces River.)

That's exactly my point though. I feel like this episode reduces River.

And I'm willing to concede that the decision is very River. The character, once she's been put into this situation, would probably make this choice. And she would give it all she had, absolutely. My problem is that she was put into this situation by writers who don't understand that this trope has anti-feminist connotations.

I think the Doctor just told them she'd used up all her remaining regenerations. ... It would encourage her to be more careful, to stop throwing her life away so easily, because this is the only one she has left now. And he wants it to last as long as possible. ... So, for her good, I think, "The Doctor Lies."

Men lying to women in the name of protection. This doesn't help me feel better.

The redemption angle does sound tempting though. And redemption does need a price. I do understand that.

I just had an epiphany! I've worked out why it has to be ALL the regenerations!

*dances*

In LKH River brings the Doctor back, because she's still regenerating, but it's a one-off, and she's told she can't do that again. Now - if that wasn't the case, what would stop her from doing the same again on the beach? Quick little suicide, regeneration, bring the Doctor back, and Bob's your uncle!

But she can't do that. Doctor-on-the-beach is as dead as a doornail, and can't be brought back in any way.

Oh I'm so pleased it makes sense now!

Oh. I suppose that does make it necessary to the plot. Good catch.

Well Promethia has already answered and talked about all the symbolism (it really helps to share a brain with someone!), but I've been thinking:

Her sacrifice is only validated by the foreknowledge
Well isn't that the point? Going with your hypothetical young woman, then it's as if she receives a letter from her future self, telling her that her young man *will* indeed be the man of her dreams. But the choice is still hers, and this is what it all turns on, for me - and what startled me so when I began thinking the implications through.

The Doctor, in the Library, is told 'Not one line, don't you dare!' when he suggests re-writing time. River is practically forcing him into accepting the relationship-to-be, and we see him chafing against this throughout the Angel episodes. He feels guilty as hell, and obliged by dead!River to honour her's (and his future self's) wishes, but he drags his feet every step of the way. He is angry and resentful that he has this thing dumped on him without a say in the matter.

Now Melody... Melody has a choice. Not a good choice, mind you, but it's a very real choice. She can make a huge sacrifice for the sake of her own future happiness (and she knows he loves her and has seen firsthand how vital she'll be - talk about spoilers!), or she can walk away. There are no strings. He's dead after all, it doesn't matter to him any more. Really, in some ways her choice is very selfish. It's like an investment - which is why she is far more positive about the whole thing. She wasn't 'forced' into it in the way that he was.

I feel like it's trying to make women too simple. Once they find a man, they immediately fall in love and give up everything for him.
Ah, but it's not about 'being in love'. It's not about her current feelings at all (which will be at the best hugely conflicted). It's love as a decision. She doesn't love him, but she chooses to behave as if she did. It's actually text book Christian love, which has nothing to do with 'liking' people, but just about doing what's right. Melody chooses to behave as if she was River and through that *becomes* River. (I sorta love this too much for words...)

As for the Doctor being God-like, then it's not HIM bringing people back to life here... Heck the whole POINT of this season is to deconstruct his God-status. (Basically he's an unarmed man who can't drive. But he's clever and mad and wonderful, and he trusts her, and that kinda thing tends to make an impression. )

Giving up her regenerations just didn't sit well with me. What's more, it was very unnecessary. We already knew she'd be in Alex Kingston's body for the rest of her life once she got there. Moffat could have had her save him with just crazy magic post-regeneration energy. It didn't have to be giving up everything. I don't like that part of it at all.
Like Promethia, I suspect a lot of this will be undone/re-written/changed, so I'm not too worried. And as you say, we know it's not necessary - since the Library would have killed her even if she could have regenerated - so there's something else going on. Possibly just Moffat enjoying a bit of tragedy, which isn't quite such a tragedy really, since she's going to die anyway...

Maybe I'm just too cynical to appreciate love-at-first-sight stories and leaps of faith.
Like I said, to me it's neither, that's probably why it doesn't bother me. :)

Going with your hypothetical young woman, then it's as if she receives a letter from her future self, telling her that her young man *will* indeed be the man of her dreams. But the choice is still hers, and this is what it all turns on, for me - and what startled me so when I began thinking the implications through.

That's a fair point. Seeing that she is this River Song person is like that letter from the future. That's fair enough.

She doesn't love him, but she chooses to behave as if she did.

I think this is exaclty my problem with it.

Melody chooses to behave as if she was River and through that *becomes* River. (I sorta love this too much for words...)

I love it from a narrative perspective, but I disagree with it from a personal perspective. (If that makes any sense at all.)

I suspect a lot of this will be undone/re-written/changed

Rewriting it would offer some comfort, but not total comfort. (Not to mention I would have a whole separate list of complaints for Moffat in that situation.)

Like I said, to me it's neither, that's probably why it doesn't bother me. :)

Probably so. I'm trying to wrap my head around the way everyone else seems to be seeing it, but I'm not quite getting there.

I love it from a narrative perspective, but I disagree with it from a personal perspective. (If that makes any sense at all.)
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Um yes. That's sort of how I see everything? I mean... take Ten. From a Doylist perspective he is a walking talking ball of man!pain (The Lonely Angel Storm at the Oncoming Fire of the Universe <- favourite description of Ten EVER), whose pain cancels out everyone else's. From a Watsonian perspective I want to hug him a lot. Or Donna! From a Doylist perspective Donna's fate is horribly anti-feminist. From a Watsonian one it breaks my heart. Or the AR! From a Doylist perspective the AR is... unbelievably stupid and offensive. From a Watsonian perspective it fits the characters very well, and acts as a good way of pushing Spike into seeking out his soul...

I am constantly watching everything in a kind of stereo, which means that I'm good at seeing everyone's POV (most of the time - I can't fathom what people see in s8 f.ex.), so I understand your problem with this, I really do. But added to that is also the fact that Doctor Who isn't a feminist show. There are no rules it's supposed to follow. And I'm pretty sure that Moffat hasn't set out to diminish River, he's just writing her story. (Look at RTD - he honestly, genuinely, believes that Jackie and Sylvia are Strong Female Characters and I'm sure he would be shocked if someone explained that they're pretty anti-feminist, and would probably not believe them.) ETA: What I mean is: Moffat has never said anything about being a feminist, so I'm not expecting his work to be feminist, and don't hold it to that standard. (Joss has, repeatedly, which is why everything - except Buffy - makes me cross [from a Doylist perspective].)

ANYWAY. Back to the point. The thing is that this episode is damage limitation. River, because she is a weapon, kills the Doctor and then tries to reclaim her identity, but at a price that people find much too steep. Which it is, I agree. But the point is none of it should have happened in the first place. Melody shouldn't have been stolen. She shouldn't have been a weapon. It's all the Doctor's fault, and River pays the price. It's like Lorna, but on a much bigger scale. But if we cut away the extras it's the same story: The Doctor's reputation causes the death of a young woman. And that's why I think this is where the story will be focussed and ultimately fixed.

Also - and here's a nice paradox for you - it's because River was stolen and interfered with (before she was born, not the programming!) that she's the Doctor's equal to the extent she is. Take away Kovarian and River is less...

OK, have to go. Am half asleep now, so REALLY hope this makes sense.

Edited 2011-09-01 22:21 (UTC)

Good points all of them.

Though I do disagree with a couple of things.

It's all the Doctor's fault

I don't blame the Doctor. Not for Melody's kidnapping or any of that. I blame Kovarian and the Silence and whoever else was involved. They reacted to their fear of the Doctor, but they still made their own choices. Let's not blame the good guys for what the bad guys decided to do.

And I know that Moffat isn't a feminist...

I have no idea how to put this into the right words, but everyone should be meeting certain standards. I might expect more of Joss than of Moffat, but I'd like everyone to at least avoid anti-feminism and so it really gets under my skin when they can't even manage that.

And River's previous appearances have been absolutely stellar. That's why watching this crazy teenage version is all the more frustrating. Ultimately though, I'm hopeful that her future still holds many good things.

I don't blame the Doctor. Not for Melody's kidnapping or any of that. I blame Kovarian and the Silence and whoever else was involved. They reacted to their fear of the Doctor, but they still made their own choices. Let's not blame the good guys for what the bad guys decided to do.
OK, it's not like he personally kidnapped her. But... You know, this is quite a delightful dilemma, which is perfectly showcased (and discussed) in 'Gaudy Night' (a Peter Wimsey novel - but it's showcased in lots of crime/detective shows/books). There's a discussion about capital punishment and murder etc (it's an old book), and Wimsey explains that sometimes trying to see justice done... Makes things worse. When he comes along and begins detecting the murderer will often panic and kill more people in order to cover their tracks. Without the detective interfering, those people would still be alive. So on whose conscience is those lives? That is part of it. The other is, as Moffat so beautifully expressed it:

"...[The Doctor is] just a lunatic who’s capering around trying to have lunch somewhere nice, and all these people think that he’s this massive, mighty foe... I think that’s a fun thing to play with. Because we know he isn’t. We know he hasn’t even got a plan. He can’t even drive the box. We know that’s not true. So I think that makes it a fun thing to play with. It’s a dangerous card for the Doctor to play because the more he makes his enemies fear him, the more powerful they will become in response to what is, in fact, an unarmed man who can’t drive."

And the thing is that River blames him, at the end of AGMGTW. She's forgiven him already (long ago), but she still holds him accountable. And I think she's right... Because he IS dangerous, and he should have someone keeping him in check (this is the problem, storywise, with losing Gallifrey). Here, I made a thing (also see 'Handlebars'):

Or, if you like, look at 'Midnight'. This story is essentially that episode blown up to universal scale. Except Kovarian & co aren't responding to primal, nameless fear, they're reacting to a very genuine threat. (It's ALL the chickens coming home to roost for The Timelord Victorious. I love it to distraction.) And yeah, it sucks for River's sake, but that's the point. (Also see Davros's speech.)

I have no idea how to put this into the right words, but everyone should be meeting certain standards. I might expect more of Joss than of Moffat, but I'd like everyone to at least avoid anti-feminism and so it really gets under my skin when they can't even manage that.
But it's not deliberate. They don't have a clue. Heck Catherine Tate was DELIGHTED with Donna's ending and thought it was perfect and heartbreaking. Jane Espenson wrote s8's Operation Sitting Duck, which was one of the most insulting things it's ever been my misfortune to read. But they don't know, so it doesn't upset me that much. (When it's deliberate, trust me, it's different. As a Christian - a Catholic specifically - I'm used to seeing things I believe and hold dear routinely used and misused, insulted, sneered at, [willfully] misunderstood and deliberately mocked. So I'm pretty good at detaching myself.) River's story is just a story. Does it have unfortunate elements? Yes. But that's all. It's not setting out to tear down women, and therefore it barely causes a ripple for me.

And River's previous appearances have been absolutely stellar. That's why watching this crazy teenage version is all the more frustrating. Ultimately though, I'm hopeful that her future still holds many good things.
Well we're done with the crazy now. All wrapped up in a single episode. Done and dusted and we can go forward.