elisi | DW 6.06. The Almost People

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DW 6.06. The Almost People - review/analysis.

Spoilers for The Almost People, but no further. Might do a post about the trailer/prequel for episode 7, so please keep all speculation out of this post. Thank you.

This one requires a couple of subheadings.

Doppelgangers.
EVERYTHING with the two Doctors was just love. I've re-watched the first five minutes an embarrassing number of times, and could happily spend the rest of the season just watching Eleven and Eleven.

But to talk about the human Gangers first... Some of them chose good and some chose bad and there were no sweeping generalisations about Otherness and lo, it was GOOD. Jennifer (at the end) reminded me a fair bit of the monster Lazarus turned into, and his transformation came from a wish not to die. (The intentions are good, the methods not.) Jennifer talked with Miranda about how she remembered all the times she'd been de-commissioned, and Miranda stated that personally she chose not to remember. I think this actually worked very well. Victims turning into monsters is a trope, yes, but that doesn't make it less true. Also it showed the flipside of memory. From when Ganger!Doctor is trying to adjust:

Ten!voice: "Hello, I'm the Doctor."
Eleven!voice: "No, let it go! We've moved on!"

It's something that's pretty central to the Doctor (and which was explored beautifully in the 'Hurt' vid) - the fact that you need to let go in some measure in order to function. If you allow loss/tragedy/victimisation to define you, you end up like Ten. Like Jennifer. Monster or victim [both?neither]? You decide.

I also liked how Miranda, especially, developed - it was all pretty organic, and ending up as the spokesperson for the Gangers was a very nice ending. And her Ganger was a wonderful counterpoint, as well as a nice mirror to the two Doctors, beautifully confirming that they were the same person.

Now back to Ganger!Doctor. There was some technical mumbo jumbo about the sonic possibly keeping a 'memory print' (or similar), so it's more than probable that he will come back/has come back. Here, let me illustrate:

I am willing to bet pretty much anything you like that it's Ganger!Doctor in that space suit. Notice that reflection? VERY SUBTLE! Plus... Ganger!Doctor is the Doctor and wouldn't need anything explaining or convincing. Who does the Doctor trust more than anyone else in the universe? Himself. (Plus there's an insane amount of mirroring going on in this show. In this two-parter a lot of the overarching themes begin to come together, and it's wonderful. It's not all clear yet, but I can see shapes taking form. Mmmmm, metaphors.)

And no, it's NOT Ganger!Doctor who dies on the beach, because - apart from all the other reasons which I'm not going to spell out because I don't have the time - Ganger!Doctor turns into white goo when he's killed. ETA: At least, I'm pretty sure he can't regenerate. But that's beside the point, because if it's not real!Doctor who dies then the whole story is pointless and falls apart.

But - going back to my starting point: It's made clear that it is people's choices that define them, that take them down certain paths. And some paths, if followed for long enough, will make turning around virtually impossible - and you don't get to blame circumstances, or history, or the situation. There is always a choice, and you need to own it.

Amy

The text is some of River's cut dialogue from 'Time of Angels', and exceedingly insightful. Because consider this: It is obvious that the Doctor has spent MONTHS trying to work out how to deal with Amy. And what does he discover? That The Flesh is sentient, and Gangers can feel their deaths.

Remember it is real!Doctor - not unstable has-just-been-created-Ganger!Doctor - who completely loses it with Amy. He is the one who is so desperate and furious that The Flesh keep asking 'why'. And the main reason (apart from the general atrocity of the whole thing) is that he knows that it is what he must do to her. So that scene? Is the Doctor for just a moment letting Amy see the real conflict inside him. He is very good at pretending that things are OK, able to lie through his teeth with perfect ease. But underneath there is endless conflict ("I am always worried about you.")

Also see the very end, when he tells Rory to step away from Amy. He is angry, actually shouting at them.... and you can literally see the guilt and pain in his eyes. It's horrible, but he has to do it, no matter how much he hates himself for it.

As for the baby thing - like I said, I'll leave all that speculation to another post.

ETA: Further clarification of my thoughts here.

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I love your take on Amy.

As for the killer in the space-suit I've always thought that it was The Doctor (after all he put the space helmet on at some point in The Impossible Astronaut!).

http://frenchani.livejournal.com/471886.html#cutid1

My main problem is the Future!Doctor who is killed. I don't know how Saint Moff will work this out, but undoing it will feel like cheating so the only way out would be changing the meaning of what we saw instead of prividing it from happening. The future Future!Doctor came from must be the issue that has to be fixed.

But you're right, Ganger!Doctor would have gone all goo-like if it were him.

I love your take on Amy.
:)

As for the killer in the space-suit I've always thought that it was The Doctor (after all he put the space helmet on at some point in The Impossible Astronaut!).
Ooooh good catch! Yes. It has to be him, doesn't it?

The future Future!Doctor came from must be the issue that has to be fixed.
*nods a LOT* And after all the stuff about CHOICES, then my guess would be that older!Doctor hopes that younger!Doctor will make different choices to himself, or something like that? Because it can't be just 'undone'.

But you're right, Ganger!Doctor would have gone all goo-like if it were him.
Thank you. Everyone else has argued about this, and it wasn't even the main point... ;)

On the other hand

beer_good_foamy has a point about Ganger!Buzzer not turning into goo when he died!

This season has played a lot on the idea of doubles and those last clones were part of a leitmotiv. I don't think that Future!Doctor who died was that Gangler but I still expect him to be the product of a time paradox, which needs to be destroy.

Anyway, I like how Moffat is tackling a new fairytale with Amy as Sleeping Beauty!

On the other hand beer_good_foamy has a point about Ganger!Buzzer not turning into goo when he died!
True, but Ganger!Doctor was still made of Flesh, not Timelord DNA. He wouldn't regenerate.

This season has played a lot on the idea of doubles and those last clones were part of a leitmotiv. I don't think that Future!Doctor who died was that Ganger but I still expect him to be the product of a time paradox, which needs to be destroy.
Yes, something like that. I have a feeling episode 7 is going to cast light on what might cause it...

Anyway, I like how Moffat is tackling a new fairytale with Amy as Sleeping Beauty!
Someone should count up how many fairy tales he's done by now. :)

And no, it's NOT Ganger!Doctor who dies on the beach, because - apart from all the other reasons which I'm not going to spell out because I don't have the time - Ganger!Doctor turns into white goo when he's killed.

Only if he gets sonic'd to death. Ganger!Buzzer was electrocuted, and AFAIR he didn't turn into white goo ("He had a heart and you stopped it!")

Otherwise, very well argued. Not sure I'm convinced, but I'm not less convinced. :) Now I'm trying to figure out the significance of the Doctor executing himself. Hmmm.

Phooey. I was feeling particularly clever until I realized you'd gotten here and said it first.

But you used "derezzed", so bonus points!

This is what I get for being too tired to argue mymain points.

Bascially if it'snot real!Doctor who dies then the whole story falls apart. It'd be like having BuffyBot sacrifice herself in The Gift. Nice gesture, empty story.

Now I'm trying to figure out the significance of the Doctor executing himself. Hmmm.
It'll all come down to choices, mark my words.

Bascially if it'snot real!Doctor who dies then the whole story falls apart.

Now THAT I do agree with.

Oh good! :D And this is why the goo issue is rather beside the point. I don't think the Flesh can regenerate, but even IF it could, it couldn't be Ganger!Doctor who died.

But we're told over and over again that they are *both* The Doctor so regardless of who was shot it *was* The Doctor.

Or not.

I find this whole thing a little confusing.

But they went out of their way with this episode to point out that Ganger!Doctor is the real Doctor. It feelf a cop out of sorts, but they've covered their posteriors if they do go down this road. If we're going to see more of the Ganger!Doctor it could possibly explain why Canton was so insistent that it was the real Doctor who died. Perhaps he'll do something that proves how real he is and gives the dramatic impetus that makes his death poignant and satisfying (we just haven't seen it yet). Plus it could explain why they were so explicitly instructed to burn the body. It could be so that no one could discover that it wasn't really the Doctor. The scene feels staged. So it all depends on why the Doctor (or someone else) felt the need to stage that death scene. If the scene was staged, you could also find a way to kill a Ganger so that they wouldn't melt immediately. You'd be controlling all the variables. The main question I keep coming back to is, who's it staged for? Who's meant to be the audience?

Edited 2011-06-01 10:51 (UTC)

It does feel staged, hmmmm. That said, I still personally feel like it was "real" and isn't going to be a cheat, but it's a lot of trouble to go to to die in a particular way and make sure particular people are there, etc., etc.

I suspect a twist of some kind. I'm also caught on the line that the Ganger!Doctor is as real as our Doctor. Yet I keep reading interpretations that say they're the same, but don't really treat them as equal. (We need a double blind study!)

What if the the Doctor who dies is the Ganger!Doctor and the one who kills him is the next regenerated!Doctor. And the regenerated!Doctor has done horrible things in his carnation as Eleven and is redeeming himself as Twelve. Or something?

Honestly, that doesn't even make sense to me. :P I just don't understand how the Doctor is really going to die, and if the Ganger!Doctor isn't really real (he's the equivalent of the Buffybot and he can't regenerate /stealing Elisi's words in comments) then he can't replace the Doctor.

So what's the sea change? The little girl is the new Doctor who carries the show forward? It reminds me of all the talk about the Doctor being a woman in a future regeneration.

I'm also caught on the line that the Ganger!Doctor is as real as our Doctor. Yet I keep reading interpretations that say they're the same, but don't really treat them as equal. (We need a double blind study!)
I treat them equally! Their bodies (and now histories) are different, however. Like the Gangers and the humans. Even within the story, real!Doctor found out that he would die, and Ganger!Doctor didn't.

What if the the Doctor who dies is the Ganger!Doctor and the one who kills him is the next regenerated!Doctor. And the regenerated!Doctor has done horrible things in his carnation as Eleven and is redeeming himself as Twelve. Or something?
But that would be like dragging TenToo out of Pete's world and saying he needs to pay for what real!Ten did on Mars. Same person, but different history. (Eleven, of course, hasn't done what-ever-it-is yet, but Ganger!Doctor won't have any part in it, because he's currently dead.)

And that's all I've got time for right now! *runs away again*

Edited 2011-06-02 16:39 (UTC)

Honestly, this is what's throwing me. If the ganger!Doctor is nothing more than the Buffybot, then...

See, people keep saying they're the same, but no one is treating them like they're the same.

See my follow-up post.

(You can substitute Wish!verse Buffy for the Buffybot if you like.)

Edited 2011-06-02 16:02 (UTC)

Wishverse Buffy makes more sense to me. Essentially the same, but not the one we've been watching this whole time.

And that's my point. Plus Ganger!Doctor shouldn't pay for real!Doctor's sins (or whatever the reason is he gets killed).

I just wanted to point out that gangers don't automatically turn into white goo when they are killed. Only when they are melted with acid or derezzed (for want of a better word) with a sonic screwdriver.

The Doctor made sure to point out that once they are made stable they are just like humans. In fact, Buzzer wasn't even stabilized and he didn't gooify after he was hit with the glorified cattle prod.

I so shouldn't post stuff when I'mtoo tired to argue properly...

Apart from the fact that I'm pretty sure that the Flesh can't *regenerate*, then it can't be Ganger!Doctor who dies, since that would render the whole story pointless.

That's just the thing, though. Can it? It's pretty much "The Doctor". Is he a special case that's doesn't simply die he reforms himself? IIRC, one of the characters actually asked this question so it does sound reasonable to me.

That was the first thing I thought of when we were introduced to Doctor/Ganger. That the doctor being shot was Doctor/Ganger and the person inside the astronaut suit was The Doctor. I didn't catch the reflection thing, though. Good catch!

See my follow up post, because I think it CAN'T be Ganger!Doctor dying, and it's nothing to do with their physical attributes.

Intriguing point about the killer's identity - I had wondered about it before (like

frenchani said, wearing the space helmet practically was a giveaway), but before this two-parter it never really seemed like a possibility, and the Doctor executing himself is... horrific, unless Moffat gives us a very.good.reason. and decent treatment in terms of storytelling.

Jennifer (at the end) reminded me a fair bit of the monster Lazarus turned into, and his transformation came from a wish not to die. (The intentions are good, the methods not.)

And this, I think, is precisely what is going to happen in the second part of the series: "I've been running, faster than I've ever run. Now it's time for me to stop." The Doctor tearing around the universe trying to prevent his death and getting progressively darker and more desperate trying to stave of his end somehow until he comes to the conclusion that it is inevitable and he sends out the invitations.

But given the door diner!Doctor appeared through (saying Guys and Dolls, and with a picture of Elvis of all people), I think we actually were dealing with his Ganger for most of the series (while the original was investigating about real Amy's whereabouts?), analogous to Amy's Ganger (hence his mention of having been to the monastery before), and the shoes the two Doctors were switching actually meant original!Doctor was returning. Or, more possibly, the Doctor lied and there was no switch at all. If we still were dealing with his Ganger at the end, at any rate, soniccing Ganger!Amy would have dissolved him as well.

(And now my brain hurts, pondering all the implications.)

(And now my brain hurts, pondering all the implications.)
Yeah, I know THAT feeling! ;)

the Doctor executing himself is... horrific, unless Moffat gives us a very.good.reason. and decent treatment in terms of storytelling.
I think it'll be done BEAUTIFULLY. No idea how he's going to undo it (since sadly we can't have Matt forever more), but I'm sure it'll work. Not sure he'll run from his death - well he'll run, but it'll only be temporary, because I'm sure that whatever reason he walks to his death will be a significant one. (I hope that makes sense, it's early here.)

As for the Doctors switching, then I can't see how it could be done. We follow them throughout, the TARDIS only reappears at the very end, and Ganger!Doctor duly turns to goo. If he comes back and then enters the storyline at the beginning there would be a LOT of timey-wimey stuff going on. Plus, we've had no indication that this is the case.

Yeah, I know THAT feeling! ;)

We're watching a Moffat-run series. It shows. ;)

As for the Doctors switching, then I can't see how it could be done.

I no longer remember, either, I wish I did; it was late and my brain probably got muddled. But knowing Moffat, Ganger!Doctor was only a red herring, merely taking up the mirrors-and-identity theme (though the clones in that two-parter were specifically requested by Moffat) this season.

We're watching a Moffat-run series. It shows. ;)
I even dream about hidden clues... /o\

But knowing Moffat, Ganger!Doctor was only a red herring, merely taking up the mirrors-and-identity theme (though the clones in that two-parter were specifically requested by Moffat) this season.
*nods* He likes red herrings. And I wrote a follow up post, if you're interested. :)

If the ganger!Doctor had been inside the TARDIS, wouldn't he have been stabilized and turned into a proper person who wouldn't melt into goo? But then ganger!Amy still melted....

My brain hurts.

Ganger!Amy melted because she was never a properly independent consciousness. Or to be more precise was never a properly independent copy of Amy's consciousness. The ganger on the island only were because the electrical storm.

Now, the Flesh itself has it's own form of sentience that is seems even the Doctor had trouble describing. I think the Doctor felt terribly about subjecting the Flesh as a being in itself to Amy's fear and possible pain.

Ah, ok.

I don't think so. Ganger!Amy melted because she was derezzed by a sonic screwdriver.

But we saw Ganger!Doctor turn to goo when he died. So unless they were both Gangers, we have real!Doctor.

Yes, but he hadn't been in the TARDIS. If he survived that death (molecular memory or whatever handwavey thing they said) and then went on to spend time in the TARDIS, he could have been stablized. We have (presumably) real!Doctor now, but since Amy and Rory leave at some point before TIA, they could still get switched.

See my follow up post (because we are talking about different things), although basically killing Ganger!Doctor would be like making TenToo pay for what Ten did on Mars. Same person, but - at that point - a different history.

Going to check it out. :)

But that's beside the point, because if it's not real!Doctor who dies then the whole story is pointless and falls apart.

The technicalities can be handwaved by the storyteller in a dozen different ways. I agree that it's fundamentally all about choices but if it was Ganger!Doctor dying then it's still about a sentient being choosing to die for some greater purpose. Wild baseless speculation but suppose the Flesh is being manipulated by some outside beings and the Flesh/Gangers choose to rebel against that. They side with the Doctor and therefore one chooses to die because it'll save everyone. Given the way that the Gangers/The Flesh don't normally get a choice about how they live and die, that's powerful. As you say, the consciousness of the Flesh was asking why they have to keep dying pointlessly; why are they slaves? Just why? One of them choosing to die for a specific reason, in the conscious act of trying to free them all, would answer that plaintive question. As a personification of the Flesh and its possible desire to find a purpose in its existence and achieve freedom of choice, he could go live (being silly throughout history) and then die well in the Doctor's shoes. A sentient lifeform willingly sacrificing itself to save everyone. I'd cry for him if that happened. That would be something the Real!Doctor would do, so he would be just as real to me.

I guess for me it would be less like the Buffybot randomly dying in place of Buffy and more like Buffy choosing to die in place of Dawn.

Given all the different questions posed by you and others I think I'm going to write another post, trying to explain where I come from, because there is a lot of talking past each other.

As for your delightful theory, then it's very good, except for the Gangers not being central to the season. They carry the themes, but they're not what the story turns around. Plus, how would 22nd century people know that a Ganger had been killed on a beach in the 21st century?

Anyway, I shall go off and write some meta. :)

Anyway, I shall go off and write some meta. :)

=D

*points to icon*

I've become FAR too used to talking to you, forgetting to lay out all my thoughts properly - normal people don't make the kind of metaphorical leaps we are used to. (Guess our brains are wired differently?) Also it was late and I was tired/lazy.

Have not had time to write yet, although I have been turning stuff over in my head, and I think I'll have to go back to The Beast Below again... :)

I see your blame. And raise you two water imageries and a Buffy reference.

In fairness to all involved, the results of months and months of metaphorical analysis is not something you're going to manage to either convey or absorb in the course of a short reaction post.

I remember being tempted after the opener to write some more meta!fic:

AMY: You killed the Doctor, you bastard!
MOFFAT: Yeah . . . but have you considered the symbolic context?

I may yet, we'll see.

I see your blame. And raise you two water imageries and a Buffy reference.
"...three months under the ocean actually gave me perspective. Kind of a M. C. Esher perspective - but I did get time to think."
Angel, AtS S4.01

In fairness to all involved, the results of months and months of metaphorical analysis is not something you're going to manage to either convey or absorb in the course of a short reaction post.
*nods a lot* Like I said... laziness. It'll come back and bite you.

AMY: You killed the Doctor, you bastard!
MOFFAT: Yeah . . . but have you considered the symbolic context?
Genuine gigglesnort. And I've kept chuckling ever since. Am TOTALLY nabbing it.

Haven't read comments yet, but what if the Doctor in the astronaut suit is the Doctor, but a future regeneration? And maybe we won't see the face under the helmet until later.

I dunno. I just have issues thinking the Doctor is going to die and go gooey. Dunno why exactly. It just feels odd.

Question for you: if the Doctor and his ganger are the same, then why is it okay to kill Amy's ganger? Or is there something different about Amy's ganger that makes her less of a person than all the other gangers? :-/

Haven't read comments yet, but what if the Doctor in the astronaut suit is the Doctor, but a future regeneration?
That's possible, although I don't know how that would work.

Question for you: if the Doctor and his ganger are the same, then why is it okay to kill Amy's ganger? Or is there something different about Amy's ganger that makes her less of a person than all the other gangers? :-/
Amy's Ganger was just a Ganger, like the ones at the beginning. The Gangers in the factory came to life because of the storm, otherwise they were just vessels, which is what Amy's was. (Remember how they were all in their harnesses, 'asleep', whilst their Gangers moved around? Same thing.) However the Flesh could still feel pain on its own.

Also HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!

Aw, thanks for the birthday wishes!

See, I thought about the storm, too, and well I guess the gangers only came to life because both sides of the circuit were in the storm where as Amy was outside of it while her ganger was inside.

I just didn't feel it was very clear (but maybe because the episode felt a bit jumbled to me?). Though I imagine it'll be clearer soon. I guess I don't really want to be whacked upside the head with exposition, but something a bit clearer would've been nice. Because immediately after thinking "he killed Amy!" I then thought "He still killed Amy even if she was a ganger because I just watched them making the point over and over that gangers are still real and the same!"

If it was something that was supposed to be immediately understood -- well, I don't think it came across like that. (I'd like to think I'm not that slow.)

Edited 2011-06-02 16:10 (UTC)

They made the point a bit more specifically in the Confidential - that basically it was just cutting a wire, not killing an independent life form. But it's hard to judge how these things come across.

Always enjoy reading your thoughts on Who episodes- and this was a particularly interesting one. I really loved how you pointed out that it's the real!Doctor who loses it with Amy- because he knows what he must do to her. I think it's definitely true that in that moment we get to see how he's really feeling, and we rarely get to see that.

I loved what you said about the human!Gangers, too-

But to talk about the human Gangers first... Some of them chose good and some chose bad and there were no sweeping generalisations about Otherness and lo, it was GOOD. Jennifer (at the end) reminded me a fair bit of the monster Lazarus turned into, and his transformation came from a wish not to die. (The intentions are good, the methods not.) Jennifer talked with Miranda about how she remembered all the times she'd been de-commissioned, and Miranda stated that personally she chose not to remember. I think this actually worked very well. Victims turning into monsters is a trope, yes, but that doesn't make it less true. Also it showed the flipside of memory. From when Ganger!Doctor is trying to adjust:

Ten!voice: "Hello, I'm the Doctor."
Eleven!voice: "No, let it go! We've moved on!"

It's something that's pretty central to the Doctor (and which was explored beautifully in the 'Hurt' vid) - the fact that you need to let go in some measure in order to function. If you allow loss/tragedy/victimisation to define you, you end up like Ten. Like Jennifer. Monster or victim [both?neither]? You decide.

I always love looking at the contrast between Ten and Eleven, they provide this great juxtaposition- and that's definitely true in their outlook on loss and death. And the Gangers were so very like their human counterpoints, but all the fighting started from the humans thinking they were Other, and the gangers reacting to this and wanting to live. So I did like seeing the recognition from both sides of the other group's worth- as the Doctor says-

The Doctor-Ganger: Well, because... we are. I'm the Doctor.

The Doctor: Yeah, and so am I. We both contain the knowledge of over 900 years of memory. And it's apparent we both wear the same bow-tie, which is cool.

And I loved the point you made about there always being a choice, and the need to own that choice. I think that's something we'll see more of, as the series progresses.

Always enjoy reading your thoughts on Who episodes- and this was a particularly interesting one.
Thank you! :)

I really loved how you pointed out that it's the real!Doctor who loses it with Amy- because he knows what he must do to her. I think it's definitely true that in that moment we get to see how he's really feeling, and we rarely get to see that.
It also highlight why he so very rarely lets the mask slip...

I always love looking at the contrast between Ten and Eleven, they provide this great juxtaposition- and that's definitely true in their outlook on loss and death.
By now I tend to see Ten as a long, slow attempt at dealing with all his issues from the Time War. And it's ugly and painful and difficult and drives him halfmad, but then he can move on, and Eleven, as a consequence, is much more like the Doctors of old.

And the Gangers were so very like their human counterpoints, but all the fighting started from the humans thinking they were Other, and the gangers reacting to this and wanting to live. So I did like seeing the recognition from both sides of the other group's worth
Someone in their review made the point about real!Doctor pretending to be Ganger!Doctor and - quite literally - being 'put in the corner' and made to feel his position. The more I think about it, the better it works.

And I loved the point you made about there always being a choice, and the need to own that choice. I think that's something we'll see more of, as the series progresses.
I think so too - particularly re. the Doctor and why he dies. Because his death is a willing one. Mmmm choices.

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DW 6.06. The Almost People - review/analysis.

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