DW S6.2 Day of the Moon. Meta heavy review.

[elisi]

Now then boys and girls - who was paying attention during ‘A Christmas Carol’?


TIME CAN BE REWRITTEN
(People can’t)
Let me start with a picture plus yet another call back to calapine's ‘What the Doormouse Said’:



Because here’s the thing: The Doctor’s death has re-written time.

We are now in an AU.

(Possibly an AU like the one in the Star Trek re-boot, as someone clever suggested. Whatever the case, the Doctor’s previous [future] timeline has gone belly-up.)

Now, as is to be expected we see this shift most clearly in River, who of course is directly wound up the Doctor’s personal time stream.

From Time of Angels:

"It's so strange when you go all baby face. How early is this for you? . . . I've got pictures of all your faces. You never show up in the right order, though--I need the spotter's guide."

From The Impossible Astronaut (from memory):

“It’s all back to front. Every time we meet I know him a little more, and he knows me a little less.”

River’s adventures with the Doctor get cut off when he’s killed. From the scene in the diner when they compare diaries we see that they are literally on the same page - and then he’s killed, which only leaves a younger!Doctor for her to interact with. Plus, all her adventures with other Doctors (Twelve, Thirteen...) no longer exist/have never existed. (Hence the sudden tragicness to her story, and the literal ‘going in opposite directions' shift. In Moffat's Who, if something doesn’t make sense, it’s like that on purpose.)

So, River’s fatalism is [partly] due to having been ‘re-written’.

Now, what does this have to do with A Christmas Carol? Well, promethia_tenk and I have spent a great many months taking that episode apart, turning it inside out and upside down and oh, it all fits.

You see, A Christmas Carol is very much a standalone. It doesn’t further the narrative of the characters, what it does is something else: The whole thing is a metaphor; a beautiful exercise in thematic foreshadowing. In the notes to The Waste Land, T.S. Elliot remarks how all the women in the poem can be seen as one woman, and all the men as one man. A Christmas Carol is like this. Kazran is the Doctor, and Abigail is every woman (/Companion) he has ever loved - their time with him always finite. I know there were a lot of complaints about how she was fridged, literally, but it’s a beautiful illustration of the impossible love between a mortal and an ‘immortal’ (Kazran ages too, of course, just much more slowly).

Anyway, the central message of the episode is summed up in this exchange:

Amy: Time can be rewritten.
Kazran: People can’t!

We are seeing this all over again. River has been rewritten now, but she’s still River.

To what an extent are we our memories? To what extent can time be changed before it breaks? S6!River is more tragic than the River we had before, but to quote calapine again:

There is a story and there is a lie and she is somewhere in-between.

Was rewritten!Kazran less real than the other Kazran? Don’t trust your lying eyes or ears or memories. (And hello Silence! *waves to literal manifestation of series’ theme* I’ll get to you in a bit.)

Time is in flux. The narrative is in flux. The characters are in flux. (Even the state of Amy’s pregnancy is in flux, and I think this is because of time being rewritten. The Doctor’s death causes ripples, and they affect Amy. My most humble gratitude to Promethia for this brilliant insight, which she dubbed Schrodinger’s pregnancy - in the original ‘verse she was pregnant, but now she isn’t... Time is having trouble adjusting, since obviously her pregnancy is important.)

But, all this re-writing doesn’t mean that what we are watching is somehow going to be undone, or doesn’t matter:

Everything that exists should be as real as everything else.

Time rearranges itself. If it encounters a dam, it finds a way round it, forging a new path. (Unless time is broken completely - like a crack in the universe, through which people and worlds can fall and be lost forever...) It’s entirely possible that River’s heartbreaking speech to Rory is only real in this new, rewritten timeline. (Since the whole ‘impressionable young girl’ thing is somewhat problematic...) But it’s still heartbreaking. As is her face after that ‘last kiss’. *hugs poor River and her broken timeline* (Also, it’s unclear to what extent she is aware of what’s happened. Does she still remember her other adventures?)


RIVER
(One day I'm going to be someone that you trust completely)
Actually, let’s talk about River for a moment, and how she’s been revealed to us. Moffat says that her identity will have ‘layers’, and this I can well believe since she already has layers. A new one for every season:

Layer 1: Storyteller
S4 River is out of her element, out of time, out of step with the narrative, and out of sync with the Doctor. She's a messenger from the future, a storyteller of stories that cannot yet be told. Remote and removed from the viewers, who see her only through the Doctor's eyes, she is carefully keeping hold of her secrets. (And then she ends up as only a storyteller, in The Library, after her death. But... I could always hear her whisper, like dream!Fred in ‘Underneath’ (AtS 5.17): “This is only the first layer. Don't you wanna see how deep I go?”)

Layer 2: Action Hero
S5 River is a walking, talking HBIC, BAMF and BDH. She's resourceful, self-sufficient, capable, faithful to a fault, constantly taking the initiative, and doesn't ask for anything in return [emotionally]. The POV is fairly omniscient, and she's still quite enigmatic. But we can see what the Doctor sees in her.

Layer 3a: Tragic Lover
S6 River is all of the above, but she is now also shown as Tragic Love(r). For a lot of the time in the first two episodes we are in her POV, the keeper of her secrets, knowing the pain that his words cause her.

Layer 3b: Killing Machine
S6 River is also something else. You know that 'We've replaced River Song with River Tam - let's see how soon the Doctor realises?' icon... Judging by the skills we’ve now seen her demonstrate? It could take a while before he noticed. To rewrite a popular phrase: Speak softly and carry a big stick bring a River Song. (“Oh the first seven, easily!”)

I am now going to copy and paste huge chunks of Promethia’s comments to me, because it’s simpler than re-writing them, and she beautifully explains how every layer that’s revealed ties in to what came before, throwing a different light on it, and also confirming it (and how EVERYTHING ties back to The Library):

~~~

The thought I had in response, I'm not quite sure if it's basically the same ideas framed slightly differently or if it's just a related set of ideas. But basically I think that everything we know about her now has been telegraphed from back in the Library episodes. If you go back to season four, it's like it's all there in germ form. And I'm not saying that there haven't been any surprise reveals along the way (especially the news that she killed somebody), but you can definitely see the lines of progression. And the different facets of her character get elaborated and explored in this process where the things that are subtext one season become text the season afterwords, which in turn draws up new subtext to explore. So for example:

1) In the Library episodes the subtext is the question of whether she's the Doctor's wife.
2) In season five, the subtext becomes text: "Is River Song your wife? . . . She's all like, heel boy!" And the question is essentially answered by the end of the season. The new subtext is a bit more nuanced: we can watch her to try to learn more about her emotions. If you're looking right, there are two big things to pick up on: she is quite overwhelmingly in love with him, and she's very upset about how distant he is.
3) This season that emotional subtext has been made very obvious text.

Then there's another thread:

1) In the Library episodes we start from Ten's suspicion of her. There are audience suspicions about her being a conwoman, etc.
2) Season five the question of her trustworthiness and her morality becomes text. And we're given a big focus in the question of who she killed. The subtext becomes to try to work out why she would do something like that. Does she read as a cold-blooded murderer? No, her actions don't match that. So under what circumstances would she kill someone? Out of necessity, apparently, or to protect the Doctor somehow.
3) This season how/why she would kill is front and center. The "good man," we're told, is going to die, so that question will be answered. In the meantime Moff's elaborating on the reasons she would kill. We've seen her calmly let the Doctor walk to his death twice now, and twice we've seen her shoot something that had attacked the Doctor in a fit of rage/grief immediately after learning he has died. And how much do I love this dialogue?:

Doctor: "Don't let them build to full power!"
River: "I know--there's a reason why I'm shooting, honey! What are you doing?"
Doctor: "Helping!"
River: "You've got a screwdriver, go build a cabinet!"

She may be enjoying herself, but that's a very utilitarian perspective presented right up front as text: a gun is the right tool for the job.

[...]

I find it interesting the way her action hero side has been built up. Because in the Library episodes, while she's very obviously an active woman, she's not presented as a fighter, and her gun is just the squareness gun. Season five she is all BAMF, but aside from a brief bit of defensive shooting with the Dalek in the finale, she's not actually much of a fighter either. Every time she shoots something in season five, there's a lot of thought behind it and it comes with an explanation--she basically uses her gun, airlock, etc., as I put it once, as "punctuation to the mental bitchslap she's delivering." It's only this season that we've seen her just shooting at things, and I think it's important that that's only happened after the audience has been brought around to her p.o.v.

~~~

Back to me again, I find it fascinating how over the course of three years, fandom [in general] has gone from 'Who is this irritatingly smug know-it-all?' to 'Oh River, how so awesome and heartbreaking?' Patience, and careful storytelling, clearly pays off.


THE SILENCE
(You should kill us all on sight.)
Now, apparently the Doctor’s solution for dealing with the Silence has not been universally well received? Well allow me to illustrate the most problematic aspect (good god I love re-using quotes, esp when a new spin makes them far more relevant):



And yet - which is worse? Humanity as unknowing victims, or as unknowing weapons? (Plus, humankind is hardly innocent...)

To quote William John Locke’s ‘The Rough Road’, a book written about The First World War (this is from memory, but the sentiment has always stayed with me):

‘If someone comes along and aims lots of big weapons at you, it’s no good to say:“Please take those horrid things away!” No, the only thing you can do is get a lot of big weapons of your own and aim straight back.’

The Doctor can’t let the Silence carry on the way they have. And he can’t fight them in any conventional manner. His solution is ingenious, and by far the best I can possibly think of, given the circumstances.

Here, let me to embroider his speech a little, to show you where I'm coming from:

“So, you’ve been ruling this world with post-hypnotic suggestion ‘since the fire and the wheel’. You can do anything you like, make people do anything you like, kill anyone you like, and no one will ever remember. You will go on to crack the universe, destroying/killing/unmaking my Companions (and goodness knows how many other people/species), let my enemies band together and throw me in prison, blow up my TARDIS and cause the universe to never have existed... But what’s the point of having two hearts if you can’t be a little forgiving now and then?”

People think he was harsh for giving them a choice between staying and being killed or leaving the planet for good? I think he was extremely lenient.

Because the quote I used in my picture above was quite deliberate. If you want a valid comparison to The Silence and what they are planning/already did, then Davros and his Daleks are the best you’re going to get:

DAVROS: Across the entire universe. Never stopping. Never faltering. Never fading. People and planets and stars will become dust. And the dust will become atoms and the atoms will become... nothing. And the wavelength will continue, breaking through the Rift at the heart of the Medusa Cascade into every dimension, every parallel, every single corner of creation. This is my ultimate victory, Doctor! The destruction of reality itself!

Do people think TenToo too harsh for killing them? Do they balk at Sarah Jane (yes, peace loving Sarah Jane!) with her warpstar, who was ready to blow up the Crucible? Or at Martha and the Osterhaagen Key, ready to destroy Earth in order to save the rest of the universe? Desperate measures, but it was a desperate situation.

What the Doctor does, is he gives humanity the only possible way of defending themselves. Yes it’s somewhat problematic ethically, but compared to what the Silence can do? To quote Promethia again:

~~~

[Take a moment to consider] the deep threat these things represent to free will, autonomy, memory . . . people's very self-hood. [...] What gets to me is Dr. Renfrew and what a shell he is, carrying out the Silence's will all while desperately trying to communicate his own distress to himself. Or the way we saw them manipulating Amy. And just the way perception and suggestion work around them--you can't remember them, you can't remember what they do to you, they can make you do things you don't mean to do, that you don't understand why you're doing them. They essentially cut off parts of your experience and memory from the rest of your experience: they divide the self. I don't know about other people, but I think about this stuff too hard and I feel physically ill. And these kinds of things--the memory and suggestion stuff--it's suggested is going on constantly, to everyone. Not as severely as to Renfrew, but still . . .

~~~

How often have you found yourself, say, going upstairs and then realising you don’t know why you just did that? Imagine that there was an alien, malignant force in the world behind every instance of this. And you could never fight it or stop it or even remember it. That? Is one of the freakiest ideas ever.

(Also see calapine’s brilliant posts on the subject. And selenak in her review talks about how his solution - using their inherent strength to defeat them - is pure Seven.)

Plus, even the unfolding of this monster story is timey-wimey - the Doctor has already re-created the universe after the Silence unmade it, yet the Silence don’t know that yet. (There are still too many unknowns for me to delve deeper.)

Also they demonstrate the ever-present circularness of the show - their looks inspired by Munch’s Scream and Greys, in the world of Doctor Who their looks explain why people have come to think of aliens as looking like Greys.

The beginning is the end is the beginning...

By the way: Has anyone talked about how this ties in with Torchwood in general (all that retcon), and ‘Adam’ in particular? If you can control someone’s memories, you can control (undo) *them*. And actually this is a theme that stretches right back to Moffat’s first episodes:

JACK: Woke up one day when I was working for The Time Agency - found they'd stolen two years of my memories. I'd like them back.
ROSE: They stole your memories?
JACK: Two years of my life. No idea what I did.
The Doctor watches him.
JACK (CONT'D): Your friend over there doesn't trust me. And for all I know... he's right not to.

And this is the thing about The Silence - with them around you can’t trust ANYONE. Not even yourself.

THE DOCTOR: “Does it ever bother you, Amy, that your life makes no sense?”
~
“DONNA: I was asleep, ON my bed, IN my clothes, like a flippin' kid! What did you let me do that for?! “

And from ‘What the Dormouse Said’:

(It’s worse than that: the memories change. Sometimes she can feel them, wriggling around her mind like silver fish. There is now and there is then and there is something in-between that is so very, very quiet it can’t possibly be screaming.)

The Silence can do worse than kill you - they can unravel you, unmake you... They’re Donna’s fate lurking in the corner of your eye.

(ETA: Addendum. The Doctor and the Silence.)


CANTON
(I just wanted to get married)
Part of me wants to cheer for the return of the Gay Agenda. And yet, Canton’s story is kinda the opposite. Canton doesn’t have an agenda. Canton just wants to get married.

And that's something that’s simple enough for a child to understand.

Canton was the everyday hero who helped the Doctor, the kind we get in pretty much every episode. From the BBC website:

[Younger Canton] is a charismatic former FBI agent. Quick witted and resourceful he's not intimidated by authority and speaks his mind even if it means offending the President of the United States. No wonder the Doctor likes him.

Canton helped in the fight against the Silence and even filmed the video content that became instrumental in defeating them. He was prepared to take risks, had a wry, dry sense of humour and proved a good friend to the Doctor.

In many ways he was the anti-Jack (who is of course one of the shining stars of the gay (or anything else) agenda). Canton wasn’t different because he was gay. It was society which made him different, by denying him something which should be an obvious right...

Amy: So you were kicked out because you have problems with authority.
Canton: No, I just wanted to get married.
Amy (puzzled): Is that a crime?
Canton: Yes.

Really, I can’t imagine a better starting point for talking to children about these issues. Also, Canton was just awesome and I'd love to see him again, y'know?


AMY AND RORY
(I’ll always come for her)
I was totally going to write something, but just don’t have the energy. Suffice to say that I love them, didn’t mind the fact that Rory is still uncertain (just because you’re married doesn’t make all problems evaporate), and loved the Doctor/Rory conversation, and the fact that both the men in Amy’s life could equally well be described as ‘Stupid Face’. (Slightly bothered by Amy’s damselling, but it would seem that the next episode will reverse the roles, so...) Oh, and I LOVED the fact there was an instance of 'overhearing something that could be misinterpreted', but it was dealt with upfront and lead to good discussions between the characters about important issues, instead of making people jump to the wrong conclusions. (The latter is one of my major turn-offs, so I am GRATEFUL!)


THE KISS
(Well...try and be all nervous and rubbish and a bit shaky.)
I have said before, and will say again, that EVERYTHING comes back to the Library episodes. Because what is the very first thing we learn about River, even before we see her face? It’s this:



Here’s the relevant dialogue:

DOCTOR: Yeah, I kind of, sort of lied a bit. I got a message on the psychic paper.
[He shows it to Donna - the message is "The Library. Come as soon as you can. x"]
DOCTOR: What do you think? Cry for help?
DONNA: Cry for help - with a kiss?

You see? It’s right there. Never mind the question of marriage - River is The Woman The Doctor Kisses On A Regular Basis. It’s taken for granted to such an extent that she even signs her note with it.

I just. *hands*

Has there ever been someone like that before in the Doctor’s life? Like, EVER? (His first, Gallifreyan, wife excepted.) Not that he doesn’t get around, but it’s always transient, or surprising, or with some kind of mitigating or unusual circumstances (body swap, distraction, etc), or a tragic last kiss before someone dies. Not ever has it been presented as ‘This is normal for us’. Which again ties in with the ways in which his Companions are never on an equal footing with him, plus the fact that he knows he’ll lose them. (It's Kazran and Abigail again.) But he can’t lose River because he’s already lost her...

See this is one of the things I love so much: River is the Doctor’s. He knows that she will never leave him, and that he’ll never leave her behind (by design or accident) - that she chooses him, always. (“Not those times. Not one line! Don't you dare!”) Yes their love is in many ways as Moffat has put it: ‘The ultimate tragic love story’, but it is also one where both parties know that they can trust each other completely. It may be the only kind of love story the Doctor can really have, one where the threat of the other being taken from him isn’t always casting a shadow over them. As angearia so beautifully put it, re. the scene where they’re back to back:

They stand back to back, so that they're never turned away from the Silence surrounding them. Her eyes are his eyes, his eyes are hers. And if they trust each other implicitly (which I think the Doctor does, but he willfully wishes not to because he doesn't know her so how can he trust her?) then they don't need to remember because their other half will.

The visual of them back-to-back also symbolizes how they experience time together. They're facing in opposite directions and every time they meet, they trust each other to not spill the beans.

The Doctor is always the one pressing for knowledge from River (spoilers! He can't resist a mystery, especially when he embodies the mystery with his implicit trust of her) -- but it goes both ways as he knows how she'll die.

It makes me think of how one may view marriage as being the person entrusted with your partner's secrets -- only to the point where you know more than your partner does. The Doctor tells Amy his life is in her hands, but it's almost like a willful choice -- he knows his life is already in River's hands, his future is in her mind, and he can't know it. His turning to Amy is part rebellion for how River has control over him always (he'll choose! he's in control!) and part sincerity for his connection to Amy. I love that moment, how Alex Kingston closes her eyes in quiet resignation when he deliberately rejects her and turns to Amy -- she can tell he's acting out, she knows him better than anyone, and she accepts it because there's more important matters.

Anyway, onto the kiss:

Now the Doctor describing the incident as ‘unexpected’ just makes me laugh like mad - best summed up by mswyrr (who made my beautiful, gorgeous new banner):

I love that Eleven can talk a fantastic game with River, flirting madly, facing down danger pressed back to back with her, his mouth writing a check that he has no expectation of his ass and/or lips having to cash. LOL.

Really... ’Unexpected’??? Oh Eleven, you really are from another planet. And I love how you can see the way the Doctor processes this ‘unexpected event’ by following his body language:

??? -> Oooh kiss, this is nice -> No wait! We *kiss*? This is normal for us? I need to just pull back and process this and make sure....

Which is in complete contrast to River, who thinks he’s just playing games, walking away without kissing her (“Am I forgetting something?”/“Oh, shut up you!”) - and who then kisses him like she owns him. No really, the way she wraps her arms around him speaks volumes. ('I may be in prison, but at least I’ve got this, and it is mine.')

♥
And that’s all for now - I’m not going to talk about The Girl, or anything else. There are too many unknown unknowns, and I'll need a far better grip on the metaphors before I plunge into all that. As for the girls, then they LOVE S6 so far, and 'Please can we rewatch Doctor Who?' is a daily chorus in my house. :)

Comments

[cassi0pei4.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if I've mentioned this before but I've friended you because you seem awesome and write cool things about River, who I happen to adore. *waves*

Speaking of cool this, man, this was an awesome post. My thoughts aren't nearly this coherent at the moment. Every Friday I almost reach coherency again and then the next day there's a new episode and it's out the window once more. ;)

Thanks for giving me so many more things to ponder! :D

[elisi]

I'm not sure if I've mentioned this before but I've friended you because you seem awesome and write cool things about River, who I happen to adore. *waves*
*waves back and brings out tea and biscuits* I saw you'd friended me, but I'm rubbish at saying hello, so just make yourself at home. Any friend of River's is a friend of mine! :)

Speaking of cool this, man, this was an awesome post.
*beams* Thank you!

My thoughts aren't nearly this coherent at the moment. Every Friday I almost reach coherency again and then the next day there's a new episode and it's out the window once more. ;)
After the first episode my thoughts were IMMENSELY scattered, but this week some of them (with Promethia's help, mind you), managed to settle down long enough for me to manage coherence. I love it when that happens. :)

Thanks for giving me so many more things to ponder! :D
Oh totally my pleasure. Thinking good!

[me-llamo-nic.livejournal.com]

Friday I almost reach coherency again and then the next day there's a new episode and it's out the window once more.

I think I'm going to adopt that as a motto.

[promethia_tenk]

*flails impossibly*

THIS! Oh, this! Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.

I'd go on, but I'd probably strain something . . .

[elisi]

LOL!

Also, thank you! Seriously couldn't have done it without you... ♥

[owlboy]

>>Plus, all her adventures with other Doctors (Twelve, Thirteen...) no longer exist/have never existed.

I'm just going to refer to the future Doctor and the past Doctor in these episodes as first and second, to simplify things.

IF the first Doctor is from an alternative timeline, if he is an anomaly that doesn't belong in that time stream [as explained with the Star Trek comparison], River's past need not be rewritten. Because the second Doctor and first Doctor are from different timelines, they have different futures. The second Doctor will live [he has too, obviously!] and will go on to regenerate at some point into 12 and 13 and so on, so River can still meet him. But the first Doctor will stay dead. He doesn't belong in River's time stream, so it doesn't affect her past.

That's the only way I can see this making sense, anyway. Well. As much as any of this can "make sense".

I think River -kind- of gets this, after the shock and horror of seeing the Doctor killed in front of her- she doesn't know EXACTLY what's going on, but I think she clicks onto something when she says "Of course not..."

[elisi]

*nods*

Yes, I have thought about this too (it almost made its way into the post, but really I needed to stop somewhere). But it's not yet clear whether we're in a situation like the Star Trek one, so for the sake of keeping my sanity I'm going with the option that the Doctor dies for good, and that's the end of him (for now, anyway).

Not that your theory isn't brilliant (esp in explaining River's words), but there are too many unknowns for me to adopt it.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I was looking forward to your thoughts!

Needless to say I find your words beautiful and thought-provoking and you really add to my experience of the show.

find it fascinating how over the course of three years, fandom [in general] has gone from 'Who is this irritatingly smug know-it-all?' to 'Oh River, how so awesome and heartbreaking?' Patience, and careful storytelling, clearly pays off.

Yes—this was exactly my trajectory!

they divide the self. I don't know about other people, but I think about this stuff too hard and I feel physically ill. And these kinds of things--the memory and suggestion stuff--it's suggested is going on constantly, to everyone.

So very disturbing. Gah.

The Silence can do worse than kill you - they can unravel you, unmake you... They’re Donna’s fate lurking in the corner of your eye.

And considering that I think Donna’s fate is the most horrifying thing the show ever did, this is, again, so disturbing to me.

Also, Canton was just awesome and I'd love to see him again, y'know?

I want him back so badly!

Oh, and I LOVED the fact there was an instance of 'overhearing something that could be misinterpreted', but it was dealt with upfront and lead to good discussions between the characters about important issues, instead of making people jump to the wrong conclusions. (The latter is one of my major turn-offs, so I am GRATEFUL!)

We have the same turn off. Also, Amy telling the Doctor he was her best friend made me happy and broke my heart at the same time. Poor Amy! She waited so long! But yay Amy! She’s got this wonderful best friend now!

dies. Not ever has it been presented as ‘This is normal for us’. Which again ties in with the ways in which his Companions are never on an equal footing with him, plus the fact that he know he’ll lose them. But he can’t lose River because he’s already lost her...

YES.

Oh, this show! It brings me such joy!

[elisi]

I was looking forward to your thoughts!
I was looking forward to being DONE writing them... ;)

Needless to say I find your words beautiful and thought-provoking and you really add to my experience of the show.
Awww. ♥

Yes—this was exactly my trajectory!
Well *I* liked her right from the start! *is smug*

So very disturbing. Gah.
I think adults are finding them a lot more freaky than children...

And considering that I think Donna’s fate is the most horrifying thing the show ever did, this is, again, so disturbing to me.
This was what really made the point stand out for me - there is a huge difference between rewriting and stealing memories. (Not that I blame the Doctor for what he did, but POOR DONNA!)

I want him back so badly!
So damn cool! *cheers for Canton*

We have the same turn off. Also, Amy telling the Doctor he was her best friend made me happy and broke my heart at the same time. Poor Amy! She waited so long! But yay Amy! She’s got this wonderful best friend now!
Oh Amy. Amy Amy Amy. I feel she always gets the short shift in my meta, but I do love her OODLES! Plus she's so pretty that I'm constantly distracted.

YES.
Doctor/River4eva! ;)

Oh, this show! It brings me such joy!
It is like chocolate, except calorie free! :D

[me-llamo-nic.livejournal.com]

Great thoughts, all of them. My head's spinning a bit too much to comment anything more intelligent than that right now. Might pop back later.

[elisi]

Well thank you either way! And I swear, the layers in this show are just INSANE! (The Buffy verse was always easier, because by the time I delved into the meta, I was working with a closed canon. Having everything CONSTANTLY SHIFT is mind boggling...)

[frenchani.livejournal.com]

River’s adventures with the Doctor get cut off when he’s killed. From the scene in the diner when they compare diaries we see that they are literally on the same page - and then he’s killed, which only leaves a younger!Doctor for her to interact with. Plus, all her adventures with other Doctors (Twelve, Thirteen...) no longer exist/have never existed. (Hence the sudden tragicness to her story, and the literal ‘going in opposite directions' shift. In Moffat's Who, if something doesn’t make sense, it’s like that on purpose.)

Oh yes!!! *applauds*

It’s entirely possible that River’s heartbreaking speech to Rory is only real in this new, rewritten timeline. (Since the whole ‘impressionable young girl’ thing is somewhat problematic...) But it’s still heartbreaking. As is her face after that ‘last kiss’.

I love that!

I also like your analysis on River.

Certain things didn't work for me in the episode (the line about "you dropped from the sky" and "my life was so boring" works for The Doctor but doesn't make sense for Rory if what we know of Amy and Rory's past is still valid, figure of speech or not; Canton wanting to get married with another man in 1969? Not really believable and quite anachronistic)but I enjoyed it very much.

I love this season, I love Moffat and I love you!!!!

[elisi]

Oh yes!!! *applauds*
:) Until we know what's actually going on, this seems by far the most logical explanation.

I love that!
All the timey-wimey-ness is almost breaking my head, but some of it I can grasp...

I also like your analysis on River.
Thank you! I could write about her FOREVER I swear. And I don't even know who she is yet.

Certain things didn't work for me in the episode (the line about "you dropped from the sky" and "my life was so boring" works for The Doctor but doesn't make sense for Rory if what we know of Amy and Rory's past is still valid, figure of speech or not
This fic does a good job of casting light on how she might come to use those words.

Canton wanting to get married with another man in 1969? Not really believable and quite anachronistic)but I enjoyed it very much.
Apparently there is precedent for this (I don't have the link, but someone hunted down the story), so it IS possible, just rather unlikely.

I love this season, I love Moffat and I love you!!!!
Awwww. *squish* All of it right back atcha!

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

I really don't have anything pithy to add to this, other than you're awesome and your daughters are lucky to get to watch this with you live.

Now back to the research essay that's keeping me from finishing my recap/review. This post was my study break, and it was well spent.

[elisi]

I really don't have anything pithy to add to this, other than you're awesome and your daughters are lucky to get to watch this with you live.
It is still a total thrill to get my show first - for so many years [watching Buffy] I was always behind... Anyway, thank you. *blushes*

Now back to the research essay that's keeping me from finishing my recap/review. This post was my study break, and it was well spent.
Good luck with your essay, and I'm glad to have provided a pleasant break.

[independence1776]

I'm going to come back to this later (tonight, hopefully) because I have to start dinner soon, but I wanted to say your bit about the Silence is helping me figure out how I feel about it. Because I have no problem with it in-universe-- it really was the only solution-- but the ethics make me cringe. There's a lot more that I want to say about it, but I gotta run.

[elisi]

V. quickly, and this isn't so much about the ethics as about the Doctor's role, but your comment made me think of this Moffat quote which someone just posted:

"...pacifist? He's good, kind, brave and brilliant - but pacifist? More like the last man standing."

"Detests violence, but never runs from a fight. That's not a pacifist."

(There's a little more, but it's mildly spoilery, and this puts the point across rather well.)

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

Haven't finished the whole post yet (so much meaty thinky stuff!), but had to reply quickly to this:

I find it fascinating how over the course of three years, fandom [in general] has gone from 'Who is this irritatingly smug know-it-all?' to 'Oh River, how so awesome and heartbreaking?'

Not me. I hate her smug-irritating face ten times more now. Moffat, I clearly do not find her as compelling a character as you do, and that does not bode well for me.

[promethia_tenk]

NGL, River is one of my favorite characters ever, but the sudden shift in popular opinion has me CRABBY and OFF-BALANCE. Fandom's been all overturned *grumph*

Anyway: thank you. Please hate on!

[solitary-summer.livejournal.com]

The Doctor can’t let the Silence carry on the way they have. And he can’t fight them in any conventional manner. His solution is ingenious, and by far the best I can possibly think of, given the circumstances.

It's not so much on the Watsonian level this bothers me, as on the Doylist. The Silence aren't real, they are written in a certain way. The story was set up specifically so that this was the only solution, and written so that as a viewer you were supposed to cheer it and effectively ignore its huge ethical problems.

I guess theoretically you could argue that he was giving them a choice, but the way he went through his speech with barely a hitch or stop it didn't sound like it, and it certainly didn't sound like he wanted to, or cared in the least whether they would take his offer or not, whether they'd end up dead or not. In JE it was very clear from canon that what Martha and Sarah Jane did was a desperate solution; in DotM the solution was presented as cool, much like River's shooting spree. JE draws attention to the ethical problems of the story, DotM seems to deliberately ignore them. As I wrote in my post, the problem is not so much the 'what', as the 'how'. What for me was glaringly lacking was the acknowledgement of the moral ambiguity of the situation; the fact that this was a tragedy, not a triumph. IMO Davros was wrong when he accused Ten of turning people into weapons, because every single of the Doctor's companions in S1-4 made the deliberate choice the Daleks never had, since Davros very literally created them as weapons, but Ten was still profoundly shocked to hear this. The only reason I can explain Eleven now blithely and deliberately doing this himself is because of the AU scenario you describe, which IMO sounds quite convincing.

And yet - which is worse? Humanity as unknowing victims, or as unknowing weapons? (Plus, humankind is hardly innocent...)

The problem is, though, it's not just 'humankind', it's billions of individual people, plenty of whom are innocent in the sense that they haven't killed anyone, and should be given a choice in this matter. There were conscious objectors even in WW2, the most obviously necessary war in recent history. So especially coming from a religious/moral POV there probably are people who would argue that being the unconscious weapon is worse than being the unconscious victim...

[elisi]

I went and wrote a whole other post, just for you! :) (Well, I used your comment in it.) Because I don't think the ethical problems are being ignored, I think they're being saved for later on in the story. (EVERYTHING is connected. Was River saved or damned?)

[chaila43.livejournal.com]

Random driveby from...I have no idea where, but:

River’s adventures with the Doctor get cut off when he’s killed. From the scene in the diner when they compare diaries we see that they are literally on the same page - and then he’s killed, which only leaves a younger!Doctor for her to interact with. Plus, all her adventures with other Doctors (Twelve, Thirteen...) no longer exist/have never existed. (Hence the sudden tragicness to her story, and the literal ‘going in opposite directions' shift. In Moffat's Who, if something doesn’t make sense, it’s like that on purpose.)

So, River’s fatalism is [partly] due to having been ‘re-written’.

I really, really, really like this theory! Um, like a lot. The way they've up the reverse linearity stuff has been jarring, both because of the anvilicious overexplaining emphasis they've given it and because it contradicts so much we've already been told about River and River/Doctor. And I would absolutely love it if that was part of the point of it. This might be an obvious point, but it would also be another nice sort of bookend to the Library, thematically, since in the Library River sacrifices herself instead of the Doctor in order to preserve her own and their shared timeline, to allow those times to then go on and happen for him. So it would be quite a nice mirror if one of the things that has to be accomplished this season through the prevention of the Doctor's death (again) is to allow those adventures to then be possible again for the Doctor and thus present again in River's past and future. There's all sorts of themes this show seems to love in that and I find myself dangerously hopeful! :)

[promethia_tenk]

This might be an obvious point, but it would also be another nice sort of bookend to the Library, thematically, since in the Library River sacrifices herself instead of the Doctor in order to preserve her own and their shared timeline, to allow those times to then go on and happen for him.
. . . Before I needed the AU timeline thing to be true so that the stupid, stupid, emo meeting in reverse order stuff could be undone. Now I also need it to be true so that we can have more GORGEOUS CIRCULAR THEMES. <33333

[bendingwind.livejournal.com]

Oh, this is excellent. You have such a way with meta *fans self*

I love your commentary on the kiss(es) especially, because it ties in with the explanation I always give my friends when they ask why I ship River/Doctor so, so hard and am mostly disinterested by other Doctor ships.

[elisi]

Oh, this is excellent. You have such a way with meta *fans self*
Heh. It just sort of eats my head until I can't ignore it any longer... ;)

I love your commentary on the kiss(es) especially, because it ties in with the explanation I always give my friends when they ask why I ship River/Doctor so, so hard and am mostly disinterested by other Doctor ships.
Oh that makes me happy. I only used to ship him with the Master, but River is so unique that I've been head-over-heels for them since S5. :)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Love it, sweetie! And I'm honored to have my River/Eleven thoughts included!

[elisi]

Aw thanks! And your thoughts were brilliant. ♥

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

How often have you found yourself, say, going upstairs and then realising you don’t know why you just did that? Imagine that there was an alien, malignant force in the world behind every instance of this. And you could never fight it or stop it or even remember it. That? Is one of the freakiest ideas ever.

(Also see calapine’s brilliant posts on the subject. And selenak in her review talks about how his solution - using their inherent strength to defeat them - is pure Seven.)

I agree that the horrifying thing about the Silence is not the instructions they implant but the fact that they implant them but to me that's what makes the Doctor doing the same thing equally horrifying. If Moffat had wanted to show the bad guys being defeated by their own strength he would have figured out a plot that had them being brainwashed into leaving or even turning on themselves.

[elisi]

If Moffat had wanted to show the bad guys being defeated by their own strength he would have figured out a plot that had them being brainwashed into leaving or even turning on themselves.
True, but I don't think that's what he's doing. I wrote an extra post about where I think he might be heading, so I think the moral and ethical dilemmas are there on purpose.

[notarealverb.livejournal.com]

Woah.

:D

[elisi]

My pleasure! *curtsies*

[scatteredintime.livejournal.com]

Yes. This is a wonderfully founded and argued review. And yes. I enjoyed reading this and I'll add it to my memories because there are just so many things about it that make me shake with glee and madness because somebody put into words what my feeble mind has been thinking and trying to figure out.

So. Thank you. Thank you and your fellow reviewers that you quoted.

[elisi]

Well thank you lots and lots for your comment. *blushes* This stuff just sort of eats up my brain...

[caliente-uk.livejournal.com]

I love your brain! Fabulous post. :)

I've fallen so hard for this season so far. I've watched the first two eps twice already, which I haven't done with a Doctor Who episode for a while. I love the timey-wimeyness of it all - and adore River, Rory and Amy.

I can't wait to find out what the rest of S6 has in store for us!

[elisi]

I love your brain! Fabulous post. :)
Aw, thank you. ♥

I've fallen so hard for this season so far. I've watched the first two eps twice already, which I haven't done with a Doctor Who episode for a while. I love the timey-wimeyness of it all - and adore River, Rory and Amy.
It's all just *so* delightful... And I LOVE having so many people in the TARDIS.

I can't wait to find out what the rest of S6 has in store for us!
I'm right there with you.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

From the other post you made on this subject, with comments disabled, I just wanted to say:


And that’s important. First of all, then I have a feeling that the Doctor booting the Silence off Earth is what will lead to the situation we saw in S5.

Good lord, that's perfect. It's the kind of staring you in the face logic that Moffat always uses yet somehow I/you/most of us miss. That he would be responsible for the situation in a timey wimey paradox, even after seeing its aftermath.

I really think you're onto something there and I feel quite daft for having missed it. I mean, obviously I didn't miss that these were the Silence that featured in S5, but somehow I was thinking too linearly and wondering how The Girl and what they were doing right now featured in their ongoing plan to destroy the universe or whatever (I think because I'm too hardwired into thinking of the Doctor's enemies as similarly unfettered in time, which is not, I think, true of the Silence, if the reuse of the Lodger TARDIS was any indication, as with their scavenger status), rather than realising we might be witness to the event that caused them to hatch that plan. Although obviously they are also already up to something, um, else.

Anyway, thanks for that - it was a refreshing jolt of different perspectiveness.

[elisi]

Good lord, that's perfect. It's the kind of staring you in the face logic that Moffat always uses yet somehow I/you/most of us miss. That he would be responsible for the situation in a timey wimey paradox, even after seeing its aftermath.
I felt rather clever, oh yes! :)

but somehow I was thinking too linearly and wondering how The Girl and what they were doing right now featured in their ongoing plan to destroy the universe or whatever
I've said before, that having a Time Lord brain would REALLY help in keeping all this straight in your head... There is the fact that the Silence are already up to something, but the Doctor certainly contributes to their resolve and quite probably helps speed things up, plus causes a great deal of resentment. There is still huge chunks missing though, although I'm guessing that the Silence are somehow responsible for the girl being what she is, and I'm guessing she was somehow constructed as the person to fly their proto TARDIS - hence the Lodger TARDIS still looking for 'the correct pilot'... Not to mention is River the girl? (Too many thoughts, I'll have to leave it there. But - EVERYTHING IS CONNECTED!)

Anyway, thanks for that - it was a refreshing jolt of different perspectiveness.
Thank you. It keeps eating my head, so it's nice to know that I can affect others.

[wander-realtai.livejournal.com]

Hi there! I came by after reading a fic by you on Teaspoon (Between Canons: The Year That Never Was-- which was brilliant, btw).

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on these episodes; I was one of the ones who was bothered by a few things in them, but your essays have helped cast them in bit of a different light for me. I think I might need a rewatch. :D

[elisi]

Hi there! I came by after reading a fic by you on Teaspoon (Between Canons: The Year That Never Was-- which was brilliant, btw).
Hello and welcome and thank you lots and lots! :) (And you get my Master/Illyria icon for that! *g*)

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on these episodes; I was one of the ones who was bothered by a few things in them, but your essays have helped cast them in bit of a different light for me.
\o/ The thing with Moffat is always to pay attention to the layers and the metaphors. And rewatching is almost mandatory - there's usually so much going on that it's hard to catch it all. Anyway, I'm very happy to have helped you!

[quean-of-swords.livejournal.com]

This is amazing. I have friended you because I want to hear more of your thoughts and meta in the future. :D

[elisi]

Why thank you, and welcome to! Here, have a cup of tea. :)

[fuzzyboo03.livejournal.com]

Every time I watch the scene in the TARDIS with River and then Amy asking the Doctor to trust them, one line bugs the crap out of me.

The Doctor says to River: "Who are you? You're someone from my future, guessing that, but whom?"

And it reads like a continuity error, because the Doctor doesn't need to guess that she's from his future. He knows more than that from series 4 alone, and explains more than that to Amy in series 5. But Moffat isn't sloppy. I think that line is one of the ones that will become incredibly critical, and it could very well tie into what you're suggesting here.

[elisi]

Ah, but you're mishearing. :) He's saying:

"You're someone from my future, getting that, but whom?"

So no sloppiness or weird messages! Hope that's helpful. (Esp since I know how easy it is to run with a theory, because OMG EVERYTHING IS IMPORTANT!)

[foreverdirt.livejournal.com]

There are some really cool ideas here! I especially like the one about River's timeline in the wake of the Doctor's death -- because if not, it makes no sense whatsoever that they would need to compare notes when they meet each other, because obviously each time they meet the only event in both their timelines is the one they're sharing at that moment.

[elisi]

Thank you! And yes, the straightforward back-to-front-ness doesn't make sense, esp when it comes to the diary - so, once you've eliminated the impossible, what remains must be [some approximation of] the truth! :)

[arwen-elen.livejournal.com]

I think the Doctor had no other option but to do what he had to against the silence. I don't think he's a pacifist, I think he always offers enemies a way out or another option, and if they don't take it, he'll react in a violent, final manner - like when he killed the Sycorax, he said 'no second chances. I'm that sort of a man.' Despite what was said by River about him being known as a warrior and it was wrong, contradicting his name, I think he is at heart a warrior, forged in the Time War. I think he was made into a man he didn't want to be and that's why he runs, but it's catching up with him hence River saying he'll fall much further etc, because he can't outrun who he is. Perhaps that's why he hates himself so much, as displayed by the Dream Lord in 'Amy's Choice'. He's not who he wants to be.

[elisi]

I think the Doctor had no other option but to do what he had to against the silence.
Same here. They're are a near-impossible foe to fight, so using their own weapons against them seems the only way. Not nice, but then neither are they.

I think he always offers enemies a way out or another option, and if they don't take it, he'll react in a violent, final manner - like when he killed the Sycorax, he said 'no second chances. I'm that sort of a man.'
You know, I see that as Ten's defining characteristic, rather than the Doctor's, generally. (I have... a lot of meta on Ten. *pets him*) And I think it's actually a reaction against Nine's choice not to fight the Daleks. (How every regeneration is a reaction against the one before is a fascinating concept btw!) Anyway, there is certainly a point beyond which he *needs* to fight.

Despite what was said by River about him being known as a warrior and it was wrong, contradicting his name, I think he is at heart a warrior, forged in the Time War. I think he was made into a man he didn't want to be and that's why he runs, but it's catching up with him hence River saying he'll fall much further etc, because he can't outrun who he is. Perhaps that's why he hates himself so much, as displayed by the Dream Lord in 'Amy's Choice'. He's not who he wants to be.
You know, I'd never considered the issue in this particular light, but I think you're right. Because this season is all about getting away from that, and back to who he used to be.