The Doctor's True Loves...

[elisi]

I've been thinking about the Doctor and the love stories written for him (in New!Who), and how very, very, very differently RTD and Moffat approach this. And - just to point out that I'm not trying to say that one is better than the other - I'm going to borrow a quote from the_royal_anna and change some names:

If I started drawing a comparison of the Doctor/Rose and the Doctor/River relationships, I'd go on forever, but in all honesty, I don't know that there's anything to be gained by it. I don't know that we love in amounts. We love in ways.

A little demonstration of the immeasurable gulf between the two:





In most respects, they are as different as can be. Although they both stand up to Daleks like HBICs:

ROSE: 'cos if these are gonna be my last words, then you're gonna listen. I met the Emperor. And I took the Time Vortex and I poured it into his head and turned him into dust. Do you get that? The God of all Daleks... and I destroyed him.

DALEK: Records indicate you will show mercy. You are an associate of the Doctor's.
RIVER: I'm River Song. (aims gun) Check your records again.
DALEK: Mercy!


And, then there's the Doctor's view of them:





Rose is the Doctor's lodestone - he needs her innocence, her belief, her innate goodness, and it's no understatement to say that he wishes he could be Rose. Or, to quote onetwomany re. Wes and Fred, and changing some names again:

There's an innocence and vulnerability in Rose that the Doctor seems drawn to, even obsessed with. If he can be with her, protect her, win her love, then maybe he can preserve a part of himself that he fears he's losing (or has lost). The Doctor is looking to Rose to save him.

Oh Doctor...

Now when we get to River, we find someone who is much more like himself. He knows that he will one day 'trust her completely', but he's not there yet and I think he's curious about how he gets there. And yet - to borrow Anna's words again, re. Spike and Buffy:

Spike is one of the few people Buffy will ever hand control over to. There's always been that lovely irony where trust is concerned in their relationship – in a sense, Spike is the last person in the world Buffy would choose to put her trust in, but his physical strength makes him more trustworthy than anyone when she needs him to help out.

Substitute 'ability' for 'physical strength' or some such and you have a pretty good picture of Doctor/River at the moment.

Anyway, this whole train of thought came about via owlsie, who posted this (via The Telegraph):

“River’s had one too many. The Doctor’s getting lucky tonight”
— Matt Smith on Alex Kingston knocking over a glass of blackcurrent cordial that's meant to be wine

Because I realised that you could never ever ever have had the same thing with Ten and Rose...

Comments

[cinderbella333.livejournal.com]

Very interesting! A lot of good insights here. Especially re: Ten wanting to BE Rose. And thinking that if he loves her, protects her, saves that part of her, that will make him good and worthy. Makes me wonder if the opposite but similar could be applied to River (in some of the ways you hinted at). River is more like who he really is. She is someone who will save the world, give her life to save thousands of strangers, but in the end, she is still a murderer. Much like the Doctor. That's something that he often torments himself over or tries to forget. It's the part of himself he tries not to let others see. However, he knows at some point, his future self loves someone with those exact same qualities. In Amy's Choice, we see it very visibly illustrated how much the Doctor despises the 'dark' part of himself. So, if in the future, he ends up loving someone with those qualities, perhaps he could go on to forgive himself, accept that part of himself, even appreciate its worth to him as a whole. Both Rose and River could be seen as conduits for him actively trying to wrestle with who he is and who he wants to be. In the end, he just wants to be worthy of love?

Like a teddy bear. Oooh, who needs a hug?

[elisi]

So, if in the future, he ends up loving someone with those qualities, perhaps he could go on to forgive himself, accept that part of himself, even appreciate its worth to him as a whole.
Oh absolutely! This is probably where I would have ended up if I'd followed through on my thoughts. Thank you.

Both Rose and River could be seen as conduits for him actively trying to wrestle with who he is and who he wants to be.
*nods a lot* (Also see bendingwind's comment below.

*gives the Doctor many many hugs*

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Not sure if cinderbella333 is familiar with BtVS so I thought I'd reply to you, elisi:

In Amy's Choice, we see it very visibly illustrated how much the Doctor despises the 'dark' part of himself. So, if in the future, he ends up loving someone with those qualities, perhaps he could go on to forgive himself, accept that part of himself, even appreciate its worth to him as a whole.

Hello, Buffy and Spike -- Season 6 when she despises her inner darkness (wrong wrong wrong) and takes it out on Spike, Season 7 when she's learned to forgive herself and him, embracing the darkness and bringing it into the light.

[elisi]

*nods a LOT*

(I ALWAYS fall for the same dynamic. EVERY time. Really, the sheer amount of Buffy/Spike quotes that fit Doctor/River is RIDICULOUS!)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

*nodding with you*

We have excellent taste!

Fiery Hands & Burning in the center of time and space!

LOL THE DOCTOR IS BUFFY.

[elisi]

:) :) :) :)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

AND SPIKE IS RIVER.

Figures. Both have excellent, eye-catching hair. Redeemed murderers. Does the chip = River's prison?

Also Gabrielleabelle just said that River is her wife and we all know how she feels about Spike. I'm thinking the points are making a pattern of ♥

;-)

[elisi]

Did you ever read this post of mine btw? It all fits...

[solitary-summer.livejournal.com]

Rose is the Doctor's lodestone - he needs her innocence, her belief, her innate goodness, and it's no understatement to say that he wishes he could be Rose.

*nods* And it's really fascinating, because in S2 of The Grand there's this on and off lovestory between Stephen, who served as a soldier in WW1, and Kate, and in the last episode they have a fight, and there's the following dialogue:

— Why?
— I let things happen. I'll even make them happen, I'll invite them. So that it can get spoiled. Cause when everything's fine, I'm just waiting. Waiting for the bad news. It always comes.
— But why, though?
— Cause I met this kid once. He must have been, sixteen? Glasses, and, and, and, he was eating away, eating a pie or something. Stuffing his face.
— So?
— So... I killed him. Before he killed me. Cause that was my job. A soldier's job. The things I've done, Kate. And I hated it. I hated it so much. But anything I did, it was cause I was a soldier, and not Stephen Bannerman. And now I've got all this, and I've got you, and I don't deserve it.
— It doesn't matter what you've done. I still love you! (pause) But what about me? All I've become is Stephen's health. It's like a job, like I'm a nurse. And it doesn't matter who I am.

And a bit later, talking to Miss Harkness, she wonders, 'Is it right to love a man if he needs you? Cause, I mean, that's not love, is it, if he needs you?'

And that's the Doctor and Rose in a nutshell, isn't it? The war survivor looking for salvation and his lost innocence. It's a kinder, more family friendly version on DW, but underneath it's the same story...

[elisi]

Mmmmm. Oh that's excellent. I forget, have you watched S3 of Being Human? It tackles this issue very well.

Anyway, it's a fascinating subject (so much of Buffy/Angel and Wes/Fred in there) and a very complicated one. Thank you for sharing that story, it's perfect. (You rarely see characters acknowledge the problems inherent in this!)

[solitary-summer.livejournal.com]

Being Human lost me during S1 (or maybe more precisely, while I loved the pilot, I never really warmed to the changed cast), and I never picked it up again, although what I read about S3 sounds definitely interesting.

And don't get me started on Welsely/Fred. Such a trainwreck in so many ways...

[elisi]

I'd say give Being Human another chance (S2 is flawed, but the parts that work, work beautifully and S3 just made me flail in incoherent delight). When Torchwood is over maybe?

And don't get me started on Welsely/Fred. Such a trainwreck in so many ways...
Uh-huh.

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

Pshaw. The Doctor's true love is Romana (it's not a coincidence that Rose looks just like her...)

[elisi]

Funnily enough, this was the first thing that sprang to mind...

Magev: "You need to get over her. - Okay, what does she look like?"
Angel: "She's beautiful. - Small, blonde..."
Magev: "Right. So here's what you do. You go out and find yourself some small, blonde thing. You bed her, you love her, you treat her like crap, you break her heart. You and your inner demon will thank me, I promise."

*slinks away*

[bendingwind.livejournal.com]

Beautifully put! And I think it's important to note that different Doctors love Rose and River--I really like to look at them through the lens of the Time War and the Doctor recovering from that (not to say that that's all their relationships are, just that it reflects what he was looking for to love when he met each of them). Nine has just come from a horrible war, and he doesn't want any companionship, and then there's Rose. He needs her innocence and compassion just to keep going. Ten needs and loves her humanity, as he tries desperately to be human in what I see as a misguided attempt to escape his actions. He thinks that if he can only just be human, the past will be behind him. Eleven is certainly not over the Time War--I think we're about to see the darkness from that re-emerge--but he's no longer broken by it. I think a large part of that came from the end of Ten's era, discovering his darkness, acknowledging it, and realizing that he can embrace it without becoming it. Thus, he is capable of loving someone stronger and darker, like River. And lo and behold, she comes along!

Disclaimer: All just my personal views on the subject matter, feel free to disagree, etc. etc.

[elisi]

Disclaimer: All just my personal views on the subject matter, feel free to disagree, etc. etc.
LOL! Honestly, you wrote pretty much word for word what I would have written if I hadn't been in such a rush! :)

[caz963.livejournal.com]

Eleven is certainly not over the Time War--I think we're about to see the darkness from that re-emerge--but he's no longer broken by it. I think a large part of that came from the end of Ten's era, discovering his darkness, acknowledging it, and realizing that he can embrace it without becoming it

THIS. Especially the last bit :-)

[bendingwind.livejournal.com]

Also: Does anyone feel like the Doctor has something against brunettes? We get woefully disappointing unrequited!Martha love and everyone else is blonde or a redhead (or Rory. But he could be blonde or redheadded or light brunette depending on the light).

This may just be a reflection of my childhood pain over having a blonde little brother that my mother made a huge deal over and having all blonde barbies, of course. T^T

[elisi]

Sarah Jane is a brunette! And so was one of Romana I. And those two he loved to PIECES! :)

[bendingwind.livejournal.com]

This is true. :3 I approve and feel better now.

*moves on*

[elisi]

:)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Fascinating! I must admit that I never shipped the Doctor with Rose, but I ship River/Eleven hardcore. I wonder if this is paralleled by the fact that I dislike Wes/Fred and adore Buffy/Spike?

At any rate, I can't wait to find out who River is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[elisi]

I wonder if this is paralleled by the fact that I dislike Wes/Fred and adore Buffy/Spike?
My guess would be yes! :) (I know my own shipping kinks inside & out... Wes/Lilah, Spike/Buffy, Spike/Angel, Doctor/River, Doctor/Master, Jack/Ianto - they all have that magical something!)

At any rate, I can't wait to find out who River is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT STARTS IN 43 MINUTES!!!!! AND I MADE A TARDI CAKE TO CELEBRATE!!!!!!!

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

I dislike Wes/Fred, but I like Doctor/Rose.

Not that I really ship them hard-core; I just love Rose, and clearly so does the doctor....

[elisi]

Oh I'm not saying that they're exactly the same ('cause CLEARLY they're not), but I do think that the Doctor looks to Rose to 'save' him, in some way. The Doctor is less... screwed up that Wes, though, and his relationship with Rose a LOT less messed up - there is a sweetness to Doctor/Rose which isn't there with Wes/Fred in the same way.

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

Oh, I think I see what you're going for. They both (Doctor, Wes) looked to Rose/ Fred for lost innocence. But I can't see Wes/Fred without seeing Lila dressed up with glasses and her hair in pigtails. And much as I love River she does have jusrt a little of that vibe...

Gah! "just"

[elisi]

*blink blink blink*

I, uh, have no words. Your brain is WEIRD. Plus, Rose was - from all I hear - a Romana stand-in...

No. Sorry. You're too weird. But then I don't ship Doctor/Rose in the way you do, so I can't see it through your eyes.

(Personally the Doctor/River reminds me mostly of Doctor/Master...)

ETA: Moffat talking about the Doctor and River:

"She can just erupt into the Doctor's life, and cause absolute screaming havoc," he enthuses, "which may continue or may not depending on who she is. But I like the fact there's someone out there who can yank his chain. The main thing that he finds sexy, I suppose, is someone who can put him in trouble, because he loves trouble. He thinks, "River has turned up, it's going to be bad - hooray! And I thought it was going to be a boring day.'"

I REALLY don't see what you see, sorry. I mean, I can't even begin to try to attempt to see what you see. :)

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

It's downloading as I type this, but I'm not going to have time to watch until later. This afternoon is dedicated to helping small children dye easter eggs!

I do like your contrasts. I love both River and Rose; they're very different character. But a lot of what's so much fun about River is that the Doctor doesn't know all the answers; I do hope he never quite learns them because he keeping him off balance is so much fun to watch.

Now I really do need to go help supervise my friend's easter egg-dying party for 3 year olds....

eta: Gah! It's hard to type with my hand all bandaged up!

[elisi]

It's downloading as I type this, but I'm not going to have time to watch until later. This afternoon is dedicated to helping small children dye easter eggs!
Those are good priorities. :)

But a lot of what's so much fun about River is that the Doctor doesn't know all the answers; I do hope he never quite learns them because he keeping him off balance is so much fun to watch.
Oh yeah!

eta: Gah! It's hard to type with my hand all bandaged up!
Oh dear, I hope it gets better soon! (Do I know what happened?)

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

I managed to cut pretty badly myself with a kitchen knife. I have this giant pressure dressing on it-- the ER actually superglued it together. Gah!

[elisi]

OH I REMEMBER NOW! OUCH OUCH OUCH!

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

Ouch! It's not to bad as long as I keep it elevated. But very annoying!

[elisi]

*sends healing vibes*

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

Heh. I don't ship Doctor/River at all at the moment, but your Buffy/Spike comparisons are ~seducing me.

I don't know. I don't want to knock Doctor/Rose. I did always appreciate them for their close friendship, which the Doctor and River haven't achieved (well... to the same extent) yet. We'll see.

[elisi]

Oh I'm not knocking Doctor/Rose!!! (this post by Anna on Nine/Rose is one of my favourite things ever!)

I just find Doctor/River irresistible on an IMMENSE scale. :)