elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (Capt. John by kazzy_cee)
elisi ([personal profile] elisi) wrote2011-01-20 12:33 pm
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I had a long post, but this makes the point well enough.

Fandom is Captain Jack Harkness. (Note the stripes.)

Joss is Captain John Hart. (Note the sarcasm.)

From Jack's blog:

Captain John Hart came through the Rift, still as sociopathic as ever. And tried to kill us all. But come on, check out those cheekbones.


Personally, then I lost the last, tiny little shred of belief or interest in comic!Buffy three years ago, with the bank robbing reveal. Srsly, I am nodding along to every word I wrote back then. Which makes me sad, because there was so much more down to come... So yeah, I'm immune to the cheekbones. To those of you who think the cheekbones are worth it - and damn, they are alluring, I've been there - I sincerely hope that he won't stab you in the back (again).

ETA: Finally read #40. Faith's great. Kennedy is AWESOME! Buffy... This is how Buffy comes across to me:

Cordelia: People who think their problems are so huge craze me. Like this time I sort of ran over this girl on her bike. It was the most traumatizing event of *my* life, and she's trying to make it about *her* leg! Like *my* pain meant nothing.
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owlboy: (Default)

[personal profile] owlboy 2011-01-20 12:55 pm (UTC)(link)
I lost faith in Joss w/ Dollhouse.

Grrrr. Dollhouse.
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (Ew (Buffy) by ruuger)

[personal profile] elisi 2011-01-20 01:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Never watched it - it sounded too squicky. :(

(Have you ever seen My Medea btw? Brilliant vid, but creepy AS HELL, and makes me think that Buffy (the TV show) was the odd one out - all his other shows tend to objectify women up the wazoo!)
owlboy: (River >:[)

[personal profile] owlboy 2011-01-20 01:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Squicky is...an understatement. It's horrible.
I was always puzzled by Joss's insistence that he is pro-feminism. Judging by the way he writes women? He really isn't. They're all prostitutes, rape victims, or get punished for having sex.
Sometimes all three.
:(
He could take a lesson or two from Moffat.
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (Women of Earth (TW) by kathyh)

[personal profile] elisi 2011-01-20 01:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Squicky is...an understatement. It's horrible.
I'll happily take your word for it.

I was always puzzled by Joss's insistence that he is pro-feminism. Judging by the way he writes women? He really isn't. They're all prostitutes, rape victims, or get punished for having sex.
Sometimes all three.
:(
Yup. I think it's because he became famous because of Buffy, and Buffy is awesome, no doubts about it. However, on AtS every woman gets fridged (except for Harmony). I am *very* fond of Firefly, but River [Tam] is every Joss-cliche wrapped up into one. And yeah, not watched Dollhouse. And re. Buffy, then s8 goes out of its way to be as offensive as possible. (No really. Female empowerment brings about the end of the universe. I dearly wish I was kidding.)

He could take a lesson or two from Moffat.
Or Rusty. *points to icon*
owlboy: (firefly River I can kill you)

[personal profile] owlboy 2011-01-20 01:31 pm (UTC)(link)
What's fridged?

I adore Firefly, but yeah...Inara is also a walking madonna/whore complex, and Kaylee has her issues too...

Hmmm. I had issues with the way Rusty wrote women in DW. It's different in Torchwood?
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (Women of Earth (TW) by kathyh)

[personal profile] elisi 2011-01-20 01:42 pm (UTC)(link)
What's fridged?
Women in Refrigerators. The tendency for female heroes to be killed/de-powered.

I adore Firefly, but yeah...Inara is also a walking madonna/whore complex, and Kaylee has her issues too...
Indeed. Thank the Lord for Zoe!

Hmmm. I had issues with the way Rusty wrote women in DW. It's different in Torchwood?
Interestingly enough, it is. Children of Earth, specifically, is crammed full of women - good, bad, in-between, all with their own motives and agendas, having conversations that are not about men, and generally being treated as *characters* not 'women'. It's AWESOME! ♥
owlboy: (rory doctor grin)

[personal profile] owlboy 2011-01-20 01:47 pm (UTC)(link)
haha i was just reading that wondering if it was what you meant.

Gah. I refuse to watch CoE :( it sounds entirely too depressing.
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (Jack (light and dark) by casett)

[personal profile] elisi 2011-01-20 02:08 pm (UTC)(link)
Sometimes the obvious explanation is the right one! :)

And oh, CoE... Yes, it's depressing (depressing is sort of the wrong word - bleak might be better) - but it's also undoubtedly Rusty's masterpiece. And I still sometimes almost have to pinch myself just to make sure that he actually did what he did. Bleak, yes, but impressive. Very, very, very impressive. He goes places Joss wouldn't dream of. (Or well, he might dream. But he wouldn't have the balls.)

[identity profile] kerkevik.livejournal.com 2011-01-21 12:07 pm (UTC)(link)
I love that word!

That's going straight into my lexicon, so it is :-)

Exhibit A - Well, this is the pic that I first fell in love with; of Jenna Stannis my favourite character on Blake's 7;
also the most wasted http://freakyalternateuniverse.angelfire.com/jenna_new.jpg

Exhibit B - http://freakyalternateuniverse.angelfire.com/cordy3.jpg

Beware Your Inner Bitch!

Still under Willow & Tara's spell,
Ray.
elisi: (Don't mess with River Song)

[personal profile] elisi 2011-01-21 06:38 pm (UTC)(link)
Those drawings are *gorgeous*!

And let's all cheer for strong women!

[identity profile] she-and-i-were.livejournal.com 2011-01-20 03:08 pm (UTC)(link)
I have to butt in and agree that the Dw/Tw really shows women as flawed/awesome and real. I think Lost was epicsause for doing that too.

Dollhouse:
Image (http://img842.imageshack.us/i/34gvjus.gif/)
couldn't find the dw one i wan't so bats will do
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (River (high heels) by promethia_tenk)

[personal profile] elisi 2011-01-20 06:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Buffy (the TV show) is outstanding in this regard. The extent to which the comics have destroyed what the show did is staggering...

And yes to DW/TW female characters of awesome! A few problems here and there, but then they're not promoted as feminist shows.

(And your batman gif makes me laugh!)

[identity profile] paratti.livejournal.com 2011-01-20 02:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Buffy did too. Remember the Buffy skipping in a low cut top and a well-stuffed Wonderbra back in the day. The patrolling in micro-skirts and heels. Faith's entire wardrobe.
Not to mention the whole Sex=Death/Disaster and must be Punished by the author that underlies the whole thing.
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (Buffy - Hell will choke on me by stormwr)

[personal profile] elisi 2011-01-20 02:30 pm (UTC)(link)
I meant in comparison...

And Buffy grew up, which was nice.

[identity profile] paratti.livejournal.com 2011-01-20 02:40 pm (UTC)(link)
But she never stays grown-up. She always reverts:(
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (My Immortal by ruuger)

[personal profile] elisi 2011-01-20 02:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Not in my world - I don't think I'll ever forgive Joss for s8.

(The comics are *filthy* things. We will speak of them no more!)
ext_423802: (beast â™” there's a brain in my soup)

[identity profile] the-redjay.livejournal.com 2011-01-20 01:56 pm (UTC)(link)
*hug* Only Joss-verse I know is Firefly and Astonishing X-Men which both did it for me, so I'm sorry to hear you're having issues.
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (s8 in a nutshell by shipperx)

[personal profile] elisi 2011-01-20 02:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh Firefly is *lovely*. It's just the s8 Buffy comics that are setting me off, and this post is partly me trying to understand why people would ever trust him again, after what he's done so far in those...

[identity profile] adoxerella.livejournal.com 2011-01-20 02:24 pm (UTC)(link)
I am so glad I fled right after the first Faith arc when I got so disgusted by the blatant retcon that I couldn't stand any more. (I only bought two more comics after that, and one was because Jeff Loeb, who is one of my favorite comic writers wrote it.) It's nice to know I managed to get out before I could get really disillusioned.

I should have worked harder to get you to come over to the dark side with me and watch/read Fullmetal Alchemist. Arakawa could teach Joss volumes about how to create strong female characters. Plus *points to icon* you've got characters like Roy if you need the cheek-bones factor (except there are actually layers behind the pretty face). *forces self to stop gushing*
owlboy: (Default)

[personal profile] owlboy 2011-01-20 02:54 pm (UTC)(link)
FULLMETAL ALCHEMIST.
ROY MUSTANG. <33333

[identity profile] adoxerella.livejournal.com 2011-01-20 02:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Shhhh! You're supposed to let her get hooked in first before you tell her he's useless in the rain.
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (s8 wft-ery by beer_good_foamy)

[personal profile] elisi 2011-01-20 07:05 pm (UTC)(link)
I am so glad I fled right after the first Faith arc when I got so disgusted by the blatant retcon that I couldn't stand any more.
Oh that was awful, wasn't it? It was obvious then that the writers were just going to completely ignore anything post-S3... :(

It's nice to know I managed to get out before I could get really disillusioned.
Good for you! Although no one could have predicted just *how* dire things would get.

I should have worked harder to get you to come over to the dark side with me and watch/read Fullmetal Alchemist.
I might yet get there. Never say never.

[identity profile] adoxerella.livejournal.com 2011-01-21 04:58 am (UTC)(link)
I might yet get there. Never say never.
*cough*read it from right to left, or you could just watch the traumatic clip *cough*
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (s8 in a nutshell by shipperx)

[personal profile] elisi 2011-01-20 07:06 pm (UTC)(link)
Twas awesome, thank you! \o/

[identity profile] beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com 2011-01-20 03:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Cordelia quote of win.
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (*headdesk* by ruuger)

[personal profile] elisi 2011-01-20 07:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you. Although it's depressing as hell that s8 Buffy has ended up on the same level as the most shallow S1 character. Well, below her, really, since Cordy was upfront about her shallowness.
rahirah: (Default)

[personal profile] rahirah 2011-01-20 03:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah. :/
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (Bangel4evah by zanthinegirl)

[personal profile] elisi 2011-01-20 07:08 pm (UTC)(link)
I kinda wish I hadn't read #40, because it has actually made me *bitter* where before I was just indifferent. :(
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (Last of my species by immobulus_icons)

[personal profile] elisi 2011-01-20 10:59 pm (UTC)(link)
You too, huh?

[identity profile] hello-spikey.livejournal.com 2011-01-20 04:36 pm (UTC)(link)
ha ha ha.
word.

I'm less bitter because I was never really a member of the church of Joss. I came to this stuff late and saw it as, "Wow, this is deeply flawed and this guy can't resolve a plot worth spit, but I love the snappy dialog and the whole seems charming!"

*sigh*
I want my charming back! Okay, maybe I was a member...

[identity profile] rebcake.livejournal.com 2011-01-20 04:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Join me in the new, shiny, Church of Joss, Reformed. We get to pick the bits we like!
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (s8 in a nutshell by shipperx)

[personal profile] elisi 2011-01-20 07:11 pm (UTC)(link)
I was never in the 'Joss can do no wrong' camp, but I was happy to gloss over plot holes since the emotional payoff was always worth it.

And oddly enough I wasn't bitter until I read #40. Now I am, though. Dammit.
kathyh: (Kathyh Giles ook)

[personal profile] kathyh 2011-01-20 04:44 pm (UTC)(link)
So yeah, I'm immune to the cheekbones. To those of you who think the cheekbones are worth it - and damn, they are alluring, I've been there - I sincerely hope that he won't stab you in the back (again).

My feelings exactly. The comics are fanfic (and not even really by Joss) and it was actually "Dollhouse" that killed the Joss love for me, but it has gone and I'm a little sad about that. Doesn't mean I don't still love the characters from the TV show (and fanfic) which is where Buffy still exists for me, but I would be deeply cautious about committing to another Joss show again.

Great Cordelia quote (and look what Joss did to her)!
elisi: Living in interesting times is not worth it (All!Penguin AU ftw by gillo)

[personal profile] elisi 2011-01-20 07:16 pm (UTC)(link)
My feelings exactly. The comics are fanfic (and not even really by Joss) and it was actually "Dollhouse" that killed the Joss love for me, but it has gone and I'm a little sad about that. Doesn't mean I don't still love the characters from the TV show (and fanfic) which is where Buffy still exists for me, but I would be deeply cautious about committing to another Joss show again.
*nods* A lot of people say the same thing about Dollhouse. And whilst I never put Joss on a pedestal, I am contributing Buffy to everyone involved, and not just him.

Great Cordelia quote (and look what Joss did to her)!
Thanks! Although it's making me very bitter to see what Joss has done to my hero... :(
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