elisi | Watched the end of S4 tonight. Hence, Tennish thoughts.

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Watched the end of S4 tonight. Hence, Tennish thoughts.

The Stolen Earth and Journey's End were on BBC3 and the girls started watching, and so, after sorting out various things, did I.

What struck me particularly was how highly strung Ten is. Not just because of the situation (which is indeed dire), but he constantly seems to be on edge - people describe him as 'The Manic Doctor' and I think this is rather apt. It's like he's in danger of boiling over at any moment, and 'He's...like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night and the storm in the heart of the sun' is actually a pretty accurate description, because he comes across as burning - like he'd literally set stuff on fire if he looked at it for too long. (ETA: It's like he's burning too bright, and he knows it.) And he's so utterly rest-less. In the scene where Ten first meets Davros face-to-face, Impish Girl said: "Wouldn't it be fun if Matt Smith [she meant Eleven] came in? 'Oh hello Davros! Haven't seen you for a long time. How about a cup of tea?'" And really, the difference is striking - Eleven is so calm, so un-hurried, so sure that things will probably wait for him, whereas Ten is always frantically trying to catch up.

I'm generalising of course. But the pace is very different in S5, and it comes from the Doctor.

Anyway, the following insight came about during a discussion in a

doctoreleven post, talking about what makes Eleven uniquely Eleven-y, which of course brought up many a comparison with Ten. (But without any bashing. Have I mentioned how much I adore that comm?) This particular thread started out comparing Ten and Eleven's *anger*, which of course ties in with Ten's control issues. A lot of his anger (see his confrontation with Harriet Jones) is because he wants people to obey him, and he thinks if they don't, bad stuff will happen. He is the ultimate arbitrar of right and wrong.

(Here I'm going to cut and paste from my original comment - you can almost see the light bulb starting to shine over my head. *g*):

But - I think there's a reason. Having destroyed his own species I think he needs to be right. Because if he can be wrong, then maybe he was wrong then... And where does that leave him? What if destroying the Timelords was the wrong call? He can't afford to be wrong, so ergo he must always be right.

Hmmm. I like this. And in this context 'The End of Time' in many ways gives him closure, forcing him to repeat his former action, confirming that he was right, and in the process maybe being able to let go of a lot of the issues...

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And really, the difference is striking - Eleven is so calm, so un-hurried, so sure that things will probably wait for him, whereas Ten is always frantically trying to catch up.

You are so so right. I'd never realised that before...

It just really struck me this time. Poor Ten.

ETA: Plus, Eleven gets angry if he's rushed, whilst Ten seems to thrive on it...

Edited 2010-12-13 22:09 (UTC)

Oooh, I love that meta thought. It totally explains the change in demeanor from Ten to Eleven. Because both Nine and Ten had that same issue. They were right. They had to be right. They both had a post traumatic thing going on. Nine simmered with it, while Ten boiled over because he really did get no closure on the events of the war, though he did get closure on the Daleks (or so he thought when he regenerated - he also had to believe he was right to have saved Rose and destroyed a species. Again. Or so I think..) Goes back to that comment I made months ago when I was still Velara (yay lj name changes) on how I believe the circumstances that lead to a regeneration help form the next personality.

Oooh, I love that meta thought. It totally explains the change in demeanor from Ten to Eleven.
Doesn't it just? There's also the fact that Ten died for one person, which I also think impacted him muchly. (Why yes, I TOTALLY subscribe to any theories about regenerations shape the character.)

Nine simmered with it, while Ten boiled over because he really did get no closure on the events of the war
Love how you put this. He's like a pan on the stove. And then Eleven turns the heat down and says 'Well that's better, isn't it?'

:)

Exactly. Eleven's still got the temperature/anger issues.. it's just alot slower. Because he's turned the temperature down from boiling, it'll just take alot longer to burn :) (like when he's rushed and then the patience drops.)

*points to icon*

:)

*giggles

I suppose to be honest.. what I've seen of alot of the doctors (and I admit, right now it's One, Nine, Ten, Eleven..), they all have some sort of anger issue. For good reasons though!

Oh absolutely!

Also.. Nine died for one person too.. which shaped Ten so much that Rose was almost the centre of his universe and he'd fallen in love with her! Though I do choose to believe that Nine was already falling for her and that's why he died for her. He could've just let her burn up. Well, maybe he couldn't have, when she was sacrificing herself for him in the first place - plus his whole EVERYONE LIVES thing. Nine couldn't let people die, he hated it. But Ten was so much more vengeful... I just realized I have no Nine icon... I need to find a Nine icon.

Also.. Nine died for one person too.. which shaped Ten so much that Rose was almost the centre of his universe and he'd fallen in love with her!
I think RTD said something about Rose imprinting on Ten...

But Ten was so much more vengeful...
A lot of which came down to losing Rose. The other part was that on-the-brink-of-boiling thing, which was there right from the start. Mmm, broken Doctor...

I just realized I have no Nine icon... I need to find a Nine icon.
This is my only Nine icon, but I love it dearly. No one could wear a doorway like he could.

I think RTD said something about Rose imprinting on Ten. Oh he totally did! I mean, he turned into this young, manic person! (which matched Rose in alot of ways...)

Now you have me thinking.. did Wilf imprint on Eleven? I want to find things the same.. Eleven seems to wear his age.. and Wilf was definitely a much more patient type of person.

A lot of which came down to losing Rose. The other part was that on-the-brink-of-boiling thing, which was there right from the start. Mmm, broken Doctor... Quite true... though he was also a bit of that before losing Rose, if I remember.. right from the beginning of Ten/the christmas special "No second chances, I'm that sort of man". The loss of Rose just made it much worse. Poor broken Ten though, yeah. He just kept losing EVERYONE that mattered to him. Rose, then Martha choosing not to stay, the Master chosing to die on him and then Donna.. and at the end Wilf. Everyone he came to care about. Sure he could always go visit them.. but no one could ever stay with them (ie Jack, Sarah Jane, etc.)

Oh he totally did! I mean, he turned into this young, manic person! (which matched Rose in alot of ways...)
He really was *her* Doctor...

Now you have me thinking.. did Wilf imprint on Eleven? I want to find things the same.. Eleven seems to wear his age.. and Wilf was definitely a much more patient type of person.
Ooooh, I think you've hit on something there. Yes.

Quite true... though he was also a bit of that before losing Rose, if I remember.. right from the beginning of Ten/the christmas special "No second chances, I'm that sort of man". The loss of Rose just made it much worse.
*nods muchly*

He just kept losing EVERYONE that mattered to him. Rose, then Martha choosing not to stay, the Master chosing to die on him and then Donna.. and at the end Wilf. Everyone he came to care about. Sure he could always go visit them.. but no one could ever stay with them (ie Jack, Sarah Jane, etc.)
Have you seen When I Ruled The World by

di_br? It beautifully shows how Nine found reasons to live (and people) and then Ten kept losing them...

Now you have me thinking.. did Wilf imprint on Eleven?

!!!!!111!!!!!!11!

Obvious shared awesomeness. I think you must be on to something.

Now I want to see Eleven dancing in reindeer antlers . . .

*jumps up and down all over-excited*
Definitely on to something.

Oh! Imprinting in an Wilf makes so much sense. Awesome.

I kind of like the idea that Ten was so Rose-centric becuase Nine died for her. That makes sense.

And then Eleven turns the heat down and says 'Well that's better, isn't it?'

Hahaha! Yes, exactly like that!

And it also ties in with that thing of being a caretaker, rather than one who needs to be taken care of. Eleven is the one who gets others to calm down, not the other way around. :)

And where does that leave him? What if destroying the Timelords was the wrong call? He can't afford to be wrong, so ergo he must always be right.

Hmmm. I like this. And in this context 'The End of Time' in many ways gives him closure, forcing him to repeat his former action, confirming that he was right, and in the process maybe being able to let go of a lot of the issues...

That's very insightful. I've always liked that he got some closure on the timelords in that episode, but hadn't put it together with how changed he is after his regeneration.

I'm not sure I'd exactly describe 10 as "manic". I have several bipolar relatives, and I recognize mania. I do think poor Ten spends a lot of his life fearing fearing the end; he doesn't want to miss anything. He has to pack everything in he can because (especially season 4 and the specials) he know his time is drawing close. He really loved being Ten!

That's very insightful. I've always liked that he got some closure on the timelords in that episode, but hadn't put it together with how changed he is after his regeneration.
It suddenly all fell into place. :)

I'm not sure I'd exactly describe 10 as "manic".
I don't usually, but it struck me this time. He's either very active or very still. But then it is a HUGELY EMOTIONAL EPISODE OMG!

I do think poor Ten spends a lot of his life fearing fearing the end; he doesn't want to miss anything. He has to pack everything in he can because (especially season 4 and the specials) he know his time is drawing close. He really loved being Ten!
Heh. This is sort of what I was trying to aim at - it's like he knows that he is burning too bright. Oooh. Yes. That's it! Must go edit post now, thank you! :)

he know his time is drawing close. He really loved being Ten

Heh. One must've been very, very old for the Doctor to be 900 and yet still have gone through ten incarnations in 30+ years.

And once again, this icon makes me smile... *g*

(Actually I think Two said something about being 400, and Four talked about being 700... But Four also claimed to be 1000+ so really I think the Doctor is just *old* and makes up a number that he likes when people ask.)

I suppose figuring out your age is difficult when it's all non-linear because of time travel.

Plus, how long is a Gallifreyan year? Does he convert the years every time?

I disagree that Ten's fear of dying is all about loving being Ten. I read his 'manic'ness as often being his way of trying to distract himself from being very unhappy. Not always. But sometimes.

He can't afford to wrong. Heck yes.

Remember my essay on the Doctor and mental illness? Drastic black and white thinking can be part and parcel of depression and anxiety. If one thing goes wrong, the thought arises that everything good in a thing is gone, and *boom*. There can go confidence completely. One method of therapy is learning to recognize those thought patterns when they start, and how to derail them.

Oh! And "You made me do this." As if he has no choice in his own actions. I think that's what psychologists like to call an external locus of control, which is correlated with stressed people and clinical depression.

Ten seems like he's shit at recognizing his own negative thought patterns.

He can't afford to wrong. Heck yes.
Poor broken Doctor...

Remember my essay on the Doctor and mental illness?
Yes, and it was awesome. :)

If one thing goes wrong, the thought arises that everything good in a thing is gone, and *boom*. There can go confidence completely. One method of therapy is learning to recognize those thought patterns when they start, and how to derail them.
He really REALLY needed therapy. But then in order to have therapy, he would first have to acknowledge that he needed help...

Oh! And "You made me do this." As if he has no choice in his own actions. I think that's what psychologists like to call an external locus of control, which is correlated with stressed people and clinical depression.
Ah, that's brilliant. Yes.

Ten seems like he's shit at recognizing his own negative thought patterns.
Too busy running away.

What if destroying the Timelords was the wrong call? He can't afford to be wrong, so ergo he must always be right.

Oh yes. Absolutely.

And now you've reminded me how much I love Ten. What a beautiful piece of emotional wreckage. *huggles*

Oh yes. Absolutely.
:) Don't know why I've never put it together like that before, but I'm v. happy now.

And now you've reminded me how much I love Ten. What a beautiful piece of emotional wreckage. *huggles*
Actually, he's not the manic Doctor, he's the *broken* Doctor... Have you ever seen The Noose btw? It is one of the best Ten vid I've ever ever seen.

I had not! Fabulous! Such a fitting song choice...

Isn't it just? It just encapsulates him so beautifully...

he constantly seems to be on edge - people describe him as 'The Manic Doctor' and I think this is rather apt. I always thought so too. On the first watch it's something that I felt sharply.

It must have been quite something watching it all in one go - I of course watched it as it was broadcast, and when it's spaced out it's not as noticeable. Guess I got immune. ;)

Oh, you're good! You're really onto something with Ten's need to be right. I wonder if there's a bit of Rusty's feelings about God in there - that he's an athiest because if he extrapolates the character of God (as he sees it) from what God would have to do, Ten is where he ends up.

Also, I think he was very clearly writing for DT, who just radiates emotion like a nuclear bomb. In S2 it seemed to me that quite a lot of the giggly, happy times, Rose was actually out of her depth and a bit scared of him. Hence the little edge of hysteria in her as well as him. Interesting that the episode of S2 where Rose was most calm and dignified was the one Moffat wrote.

As time goes on and I gain perspective on the Ten/Rose ship, I realise that I loved it as a fantasy, the way I might curl up with a Katie Fforde or Maeve Binchy and a box of choccies, whereas his relationship with Donna felt much more adult and real. But I digress.

The main reason that I've never bought into Eleven, and it's taken me a long time to even like him, is that I simply can't imagine him ever being Ten. There's no sense of a progression at all. Ten wasn't like Nine, but I could see development from one to the other. With Matt Smith, it's more like a big red reset button was pressed. I really wish they'd made it so the whole RTD tenure had taken place in a bottle universe of some kind, because to me Eleven is pre-Time War. I like your idea of Ten finding closure in TEOT but I wish we'd seen it happen - instead we got rage, rage against the dying of the light, right to the bitter end. And yet I feel that acceptance of his fate was the thing that made Eleven the man he is.

Oh, you're good!
I have my moments. *preens* ;)

You're really onto something with Ten's need to be right. I wonder if there's a bit of Rusty's feelings about God in there - that he's an athiest because if he extrapolates the character of God (as he sees it) from what God would have to do, Ten is where he ends up.
*nods a lot* It's interesting that he (and Joss) do a lot of writing that's centered around concepts of God-hood. (Which is a topic too big for this comment...)

Also, I think he was very clearly writing for DT, who just radiates emotion like a nuclear bomb.
Oh good Lord yes! He can just stand there and exude pain. (What springs immediately to mind is when he goes to see Joan Redfern's granddaughter, and he looks like he's about to fall to pieces where he's standing.)

In S2 it seemed to me that quite a lot of the giggly, happy times, Rose was actually out of her depth and a bit scared of him. Hence the little edge of hysteria in her as well as him.
Hmmm. Interesting. And there is the fact that despite clearly loving Rose with everything he has, he still leaves her twice during S2 (when he saves Reinette and when he lets himself fall into the Satan Pit)... there is a tension that wasn't there in S1.

Interesting that the episode of S2 where Rose was most calm and dignified was the one Moffat wrote.
I think a lot of the time she's better on her own, when she gets a chance to shine by herself.

As time goes on and I gain perspective on the Ten/Rose ship, I realise that I loved it as a fantasy, the way I might curl up with a Katie Fforde or Maeve Binchy and a box of choccies, whereas his relationship with Donna felt much more adult and real. But I digress.
Ten/Rose is all True Love and over the top romance and that heady joy of being in love... and it's beautiful, but it can never really last. (Have you seen Blackout? It is the Ten/Rose vid to rule them all.) But Donna was better for him, yes. He needed a mate. *sniff*

The main reason that I've never bought into Eleven, and it's taken me a long time to even like him, is that I simply can't imagine him ever being Ten.
Hmmm. I remember once writing that I could see very, very little of Ten in Eleven, apart from the effects of having been Ten - that is, I think Eleven is in many ways a reaction against Ten. I once wrote meta on how he develops, including how at the beginning of the season we can still see traces of Ten, and how he overcomes that. Personally, then Eleven was... I'm not even sure how to describe it... Like the most wonderful and delightful surprise. Yes it is in many ways a re-set, but it gave me something I never knew I was missing until then. Don't get me wrong, I adored Ten, but he was in many ways familiar, since RTD's writing and themes in many ways echoes Joss Whedon's (and I started out as a Buffy fan). To suddenly get something shiny and new and different is still making me squeak with joy!

[comment too long, so must divide it]

Edited 2010-12-15 14:22 (UTC)

[Part 2... did I mention that I ramble?]

I really wish they'd made it so the whole RTD tenure had taken place in a bottle universe of some kind, because to me Eleven is pre-Time War.
Personally I just always saw it as the Doctor finally managing to overcome his traumas - I remember (during the Specials) wanting to tell Ten to just get it over with stop running away from death, because he was bound to feel so much better afterwards! *pets poor, broken Ten* Actually, speaking of RTD, have you read

solitary_summer's Death, life, and what it means to be human in RTD's Doctor Who and Torchwood? Very, very, very long, but absolutely extraordinary meta on the Rusty era. ETA: Actually, I don't think it's so much that Eleven seems pre-Time War (since he clearly carries that emotional baggage), but more that the character of the Doctor has been returned to the role he had in Old!Who - Ten was very much the protagonist, the dashing hero at the heart of the show. But the Doctor traditionally (and now again) was the enabler, the wizard rather then the prince. I think this shift was what upset a lot of people, because the tone of the show changed drastically as a result.

I like your idea of Ten finding closure in TEOT but I wish we'd seen it happen - instead we got rage, rage against the dying of the light, right to the bitter end. And yet I feel that acceptance of his fate was the thing that made Eleven the man he is.
I like the idea of Wilf imprinting on him as he died (like Rose did with Nine) - after all he died for Wilf. I think in his acceptance of his death - and that *particular* death, which was so small and simple, saving just one life - made a big impact on who he became.

Edited 2010-12-15 12:31 (UTC)

I'd love to say something intelligent but as my brain is dying from the intense last week of school before holiday vacation, I'll just leave you with this:

I really love it when I find analysis and comparisons between Ten and Eleven. There's something intriguing about trying to pick apart why they are the way they are, because of their differences and because of what keeps them connected.

I really love it when I find analysis and comparisons between Ten and Eleven. There's something intriguing about trying to pick apart why they are the way they are, because of their differences and because of what keeps them connected.
Same here. They are *so* different, that to find something that binds them together is fascinating. I'd love to see Martha & Mickey back, f.ex., just because of the continuity. Or Jack. *crosses figners*

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Watched the end of S4 tonight. Hence, Tennish thoughts.

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