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Late (as usual)... But with added River meta.
Happy Belated Birthday ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
promethia_tenk, and a Happy Birthday today to hesadevil!
Life is... busy. This weekend we're having one of Darcy's friends staying, which is nice, but means minimal LJ time. But since Darcy's still not feeling brilliant we stayed in and watched 'Groundhog Day' this afternoon, and I think it'd probably be my Desert Island movie. *deep happy sigh*
Later, the Cherub proved that she is adorableness incarnate by holding up the (Tenth) Doctor's screwdriver to her forehead and going: "WOULD. YOU. LIKE. A. CUP. OF. TEA?" (Victory of the Daleks is her favourite episode ever, and she can recite whole conversations by heart...)
Oh, and Promethia, since my birthday wishes are belated, I'll throw in a teeny bit of River meta. Thoughts on the Library and the Angel eps under the cut.
Firstly, watching the Library episodes was very interesting in the light of S5, but what I noticed was this exchange, towards the end of 'Forest of the Dead':
MR LUX: We need to get to the main computer, I'll show you.
DOCTOR: It's at the core of the planet.
RIVER: Well, then. Let's go!
[She sonics the symbol on the floor at the center of the room, and it opens up.]
RIVER: Gravity platform!
DOCTOR: I bet I like you.
RIVER: Oh, you do!
In those last two lines you can see things just snapping together - the Doctor has a problem, and River already has the solution (she sonics the floor symbol when they enter, and obviously works out what it is then). I think he at that point begins to realise just what an asset she is - the way she can deal with problems on her own and doesn't wait to be told what to do; and these are things he likes. A lot. But what I noticed even more was the smile on her face. How she so obviously got a feeling of 'Finally, he's getting it!' That she wouldn't have to argue with him every step of the way anymore. This scene, I think, is far more important for them than the moment when she tells him his name. That moment is borne out of painful necessity, whereas this one just flows from the characters naturally. (And I rather like it, hence the rambling.)
ANYWAY, what I was going to write about was the Angel episodes. Because Promethia mentioned how nervous River is (once the soldiers show up), and upon rewatch I had to agree. Not just nervous but exceedingly jumpy, on edge, and evasive. Trying to work out why this was (in the final two episodes, with the universe collapsing, she's far calmer!), I realised that the reason is two-fold. One, she knows what's going to happen in the future (end of the universe), which means that she needs to get both the Doctor and Amy through the adventure safe and sound - cause otherwise, bye bye reality (the Doctor needs to save the universe, and Amy needs to bring him back), and River can't let slip a single spoiler, she knows that, hence nervousness and evasiveness. And Two, once the crack shows up she realises that she's inside re-written time, and how exactly does that even work? No wonder she's on a knife edge. Then at the end, once they're all out, the single dominant feeling, I think, is one of relief. She knows that things are going to be OK now, and she can stop worrying. (In her own way, I suppose you can say that she saves the universe in these episodes! 'Savethe cheerleader the Doctor and his companion, save the world the universe... And, of course, she can't tell anyone. She is very, very lonely here, carrying an extra burden no one knows - or indeed can know - about.)
And that's all for now. *runs back to RL*
promethia_tenk, and a Happy Birthday today to hesadevil! Life is... busy. This weekend we're having one of Darcy's friends staying, which is nice, but means minimal LJ time. But since Darcy's still not feeling brilliant we stayed in and watched 'Groundhog Day' this afternoon, and I think it'd probably be my Desert Island movie. *deep happy sigh*
Later, the Cherub proved that she is adorableness incarnate by holding up the (Tenth) Doctor's screwdriver to her forehead and going: "WOULD. YOU. LIKE. A. CUP. OF. TEA?" (Victory of the Daleks is her favourite episode ever, and she can recite whole conversations by heart...)
Oh, and Promethia, since my birthday wishes are belated, I'll throw in a teeny bit of River meta. Thoughts on the Library and the Angel eps under the cut.
Firstly, watching the Library episodes was very interesting in the light of S5, but what I noticed was this exchange, towards the end of 'Forest of the Dead':
MR LUX: We need to get to the main computer, I'll show you.
DOCTOR: It's at the core of the planet.
RIVER: Well, then. Let's go!
[She sonics the symbol on the floor at the center of the room, and it opens up.]
RIVER: Gravity platform!
DOCTOR: I bet I like you.
RIVER: Oh, you do!
In those last two lines you can see things just snapping together - the Doctor has a problem, and River already has the solution (she sonics the floor symbol when they enter, and obviously works out what it is then). I think he at that point begins to realise just what an asset she is - the way she can deal with problems on her own and doesn't wait to be told what to do; and these are things he likes. A lot. But what I noticed even more was the smile on her face. How she so obviously got a feeling of 'Finally, he's getting it!' That she wouldn't have to argue with him every step of the way anymore. This scene, I think, is far more important for them than the moment when she tells him his name. That moment is borne out of painful necessity, whereas this one just flows from the characters naturally. (And I rather like it, hence the rambling.)
ANYWAY, what I was going to write about was the Angel episodes. Because Promethia mentioned how nervous River is (once the soldiers show up), and upon rewatch I had to agree. Not just nervous but exceedingly jumpy, on edge, and evasive. Trying to work out why this was (in the final two episodes, with the universe collapsing, she's far calmer!), I realised that the reason is two-fold. One, she knows what's going to happen in the future (end of the universe), which means that she needs to get both the Doctor and Amy through the adventure safe and sound - cause otherwise, bye bye reality (the Doctor needs to save the universe, and Amy needs to bring him back), and River can't let slip a single spoiler, she knows that, hence nervousness and evasiveness. And Two, once the crack shows up she realises that she's inside re-written time, and how exactly does that even work? No wonder she's on a knife edge. Then at the end, once they're all out, the single dominant feeling, I think, is one of relief. She knows that things are going to be OK now, and she can stop worrying. (In her own way, I suppose you can say that she saves the universe in these episodes! 'Save
And that's all for now. *runs back to RL*
Re: and some more . . .
Very good points. And I've just realised that it's not unlike the start of the Library eps: "You're doing a very good job, acting like you don't know me. I'm assuming there's a reason." Except she can't really ask 'Why are you being an obnoxious jerk?'...
River's emotional state and emotional reactions in the episodes we've seen are almost always somehow mirroring or reflecting the Doctor's. In her own way, she's just a mercurial as he is, but I think he's the one really dictating the tenor of their interactions, with her having to adjust herself in response.
*nods a lot* Also, there's the fact that he still doesn't know who she is, and I think this might change their interactions somewhat - in many ways she is flying blind in these episodes, adjusting herself out of necessity, since he doesn't understand all the factors yet.
Oi vey, she really is all over the map, and yet I feel like she shows a great deal of consistency in following his lead.
This! Absolutely! :)
The only thing I can conclude is that she is "teachering" him--she knows the answer but is asking the question anyway to prompt him to think about it. She does an awfully good job of playing dumb, though--doesn't even hesitate.
Indeed. Although when he works out how to close the cracks (throw himself in), she looks on the verge of panicking. Of course she knows that this is how he will solve the problem come TBB, but again she's hit the snag that she *can't* let him do it now. Like you say, she seems to be pushing him in the direction he needs to go, but it's a very dangerous thing to do, because he'll jump ahead.
And yet, can the whole situation, at its core, really be that different from what she must have to do with him all the time? Maybe it's not always the end of the universe around the corner that she has to keep from him, but given that it's the Doctor, there's always going to be something big and dramatic and dangerous with a lot of lives hanging in the balance coming up.
True. But considering that when it comes to the Pandorica if things go wrong there won't *be* a universe, the stakes are particularly high. (I have a whole thing about how past/present/now works for them, but I need to sit on it for a bit longer, mulling it over.)
Re: and some more . . .
Oooo, good comparison. You know, the last time I watched those episodes I remember wondering if she was actually teasing him a bit there--I can imagine the Doctor being characteristically . . . shall we say? . . . overenthusiastic in greeting her under normal circumstances. I'll bet she'd enjoy giving him some guff for that.
Also, there's the fact that he still doesn't know who she is, and I think this might change their interactions somewhat
Agreed. Frankly, I want to see some earlier River so badly. I'm *this close* to flying across the pond to shake down Moffat for it. I'm running out of ways to speculate.
Although when he works out how to close the cracks (throw himself in), she looks on the verge of panicking . . . she seems to be pushing him in the direction he needs to go, but it's a very dangerous thing to do, because he'll jump ahead.
Very true. And I think it's all the worse for her being so aware of the extent to which stress and emotional involvement tend to compromise his objectivity. Like in the Library episodes how she tells him she knows he's upset about Donna but he needs to stop being so emotional and concentrate on the people still alive? That whole scene in "Flesh and Stone" is like an awful nightmare version of that--he's so stressed about Amy and Octavian's death and what he's just heard about River and all the rest of it that he's making terrible calls, can't seem to see what's actually going to work and what's not, turning a deaf ear to her input . . . and then he starts talking about throwing himself into spacetime cracks. She's really got no way to keep him from doing something rash and stupid like getting himself killed.
(I have a whole thing about how past/present/now works for them, but I need to sit on it for a bit longer, mulling it over.)
*is intrigued*
Re: and some more . . .
Oh I’m sure! And
Frankly, I want to see some earlier River so badly.
I want early!River, and yet I am staying away from all the spoilers because I DON’T WANT TO KNOW. (Spoilerphobe through and through, that’s me! I didn’t even use to watch the ‘Next Time’ trailers, but what with being more involved in fandom they became impossible to avoid...)
Very true. And I think it's all the worse for her being so aware of the extent to which stress and emotional involvement tend to compromise his objectivity.
He is, of course, far less unstable than Ten, but even so your comment made me think of this *fabulous* bit from 'Busman's Honeymoon':
He [Harriet's husband] worried a great deal.
"Very likely he does," said Mrs Goodacre. "You can see he's that sort. Simon's just the same if he has had to be severe with anybody. But that's men all over. They want the thing done and then, of course, they don't like the consequences. Poor dears, they can't help it. They haven't got logical minds."
*is intrigued*
It also goes in to theology, and how we can have free will if God 'knows our future'. I hope it won't underwhelm. (Or possibly I've already given it all away.)