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One fan's perspective... (no spoilers)
So, what with the Amy wank/kerfuffle/thing and the apparent split through fandom into RTD and Moff factions (where all the Old!Who fans are sitting back and going 'Been there, done that, got the T-shirt 30 years ago!'), I've been thinking, and have almost written out the following in the response to a dozen different posts. Instead I thought I'd try to put it here.
First of all, I've always been someone who hangs out at the outskirts of fandom. I don't like arguments. I deeply dislike bashing. I tend to only click on the links to the happy reviews on the newsletters. Basically I like to sit in my own happy little corner and love my shows in peace.
Because that's the thing - I love them. It started with Buffy, then Angel, then Doctor Who and then Torchwood. (There are other shows I like too, but I'm not fannish about them, so they don't figure in this post.) Yes, sometimes they're flawed (hello most of S1 of TW and, oh, Daleks in Manhattan to grab a couple of examples), but just because the episodes are rubbish doesn't mean I dislike the characters. It's not their fault they got stuck with a bad story. And generally, a bad story can be fixed with some judicious fanwanking.
Which brings me to my point - I love my shows, period. I love them, because what I want from them is something they never fail to give me: Continuity, layered storytelling, arcs, themes, character exploration and development, and - of course - great, exciting, surprising, involving and evolving stories. Of course, I also hope that those stories will have as little as possible race/gender/queer etc fail, but I am able to separate this from my enjoyment of what I'm watching. (The Master forcing all of Martha's family to be servants is problematic, yes, and RTD should be made aware of it. However, it is perfectly in character for the Master to do it. Of course, it is not an issue that affects me personally, and if it did I might feel differently.)
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is I don't need anything from the story other than a good story. I don't need it to be a showcase for anything, I don't need for my ship to have a happy ending (although that would be neat, and I'd squee for days!), I don't need for things to turn out how I want them. I sit down to be told a story - at the moment Moffat's story of the Doctor - and I'm not expecting it to line up with the story I'd tell. As long as it doesn't go too far off track, I'm happy. (Can I point out that I loved 'The End of Time' btw.? Because I did, and as far as I can tell, this is not a popular opinion. I think S2 Doctor/Rose a bit cloying, but I still cry when I watch 'Doomsday'. These are the stories we have, maybe they could have been better, but that is a moot point. They could also have been worse. The 'should have been' position I don't understand.)
So, about Amy and feminism and Moffat and RTD and writing strong female characters. Well others have spoken about Amy quite eloquently. Personally I am exceedingly fond of her, since she's a wonderfully complex, flawed and rather damaged character, and I might write some proper meta on her some day. For now, let's just say that her outfits are the least interesting thing about her, imho.
Now before I deal with writing women, and RTD Vs. Moffat, let me talk about Joss Whedon for a moment. Joss, as everyone knows, sees himself as something of a feminist. And Buffy the Vampire Slayer is, for the most part, brilliant in this respect. It has strong women characters to overflowing, a heroine who is flawed and brilliant and strong, and I love her to distraction. However, Joss has created other shows. Let's look at Angel for a moment, since it is Buffy's 'sister'-show/spin-off. Is AtS full of strong women. Hmm. Yes and no. The gender problems on AtS are many, and difficult, and every major female character gets killed off. Some of them in ways that are rather infuriating. I happen to love Angel very, very, very much (it's good I don't have to choose between BtVS and AtS, 'cause I'd never be able to), but I can still see the genderfail quite clearly.
It seems to me, that RTD shares a lot of the same flaws and strengths as Joss. Because whilst there are definitely problems with the way he writes women (especially older women) on Doctor Who (for some good meta on the problematic nature of Rose and Donna's fates can I point you here), it is a fact that on Torchwood his women tend to rock - especially in 'Children of Earth' which has a huge number of strong female characters, all of them as complex and rich and different from each other as the male ones. Why does he fall down in one who and shine in another? I don't know. But I know that I adore Rose, Martha and Donna (as well as Suzie and Tosh and Gwen) to absolute pieces, and that my world would be less without them. (Ditto Amy and River.)
Most important of all (to me) they're all interesting. They're all part of my show, and because I love my show, I love them too, even though I identify more with some than with others. All I ask is that they're well written, and on the whole they are.
I think I was going to say something about Moffat too, wasn't I? Well looked at objectively, Moffat is (so far) better at writing women on DW than RTD. However, he's failing (so far) when it comes to including anything approaching queerness. So... swings and roundabouts?
*sighs*
I dunno. I just love my show. If it's got strong, well written women (who don't end up dead) fantastic. If it doesn't kill off all the POC (maybe even gives them good stories) - even better. If it also has gay people - better still. But they're... additional bonuses, and I don't necessarily expect them. Which I guess means that either I'm deeply cynical or a complete Pollyanna. Or a bit of both. :)
And that's it. I'm honestly not sure what I was trying to say, but it's there now. Thoughts anyone?
First of all, I've always been someone who hangs out at the outskirts of fandom. I don't like arguments. I deeply dislike bashing. I tend to only click on the links to the happy reviews on the newsletters. Basically I like to sit in my own happy little corner and love my shows in peace.
Because that's the thing - I love them. It started with Buffy, then Angel, then Doctor Who and then Torchwood. (There are other shows I like too, but I'm not fannish about them, so they don't figure in this post.) Yes, sometimes they're flawed (hello most of S1 of TW and, oh, Daleks in Manhattan to grab a couple of examples), but just because the episodes are rubbish doesn't mean I dislike the characters. It's not their fault they got stuck with a bad story. And generally, a bad story can be fixed with some judicious fanwanking.
Which brings me to my point - I love my shows, period. I love them, because what I want from them is something they never fail to give me: Continuity, layered storytelling, arcs, themes, character exploration and development, and - of course - great, exciting, surprising, involving and evolving stories. Of course, I also hope that those stories will have as little as possible race/gender/queer etc fail, but I am able to separate this from my enjoyment of what I'm watching. (The Master forcing all of Martha's family to be servants is problematic, yes, and RTD should be made aware of it. However, it is perfectly in character for the Master to do it. Of course, it is not an issue that affects me personally, and if it did I might feel differently.)
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is I don't need anything from the story other than a good story. I don't need it to be a showcase for anything, I don't need for my ship to have a happy ending (although that would be neat, and I'd squee for days!), I don't need for things to turn out how I want them. I sit down to be told a story - at the moment Moffat's story of the Doctor - and I'm not expecting it to line up with the story I'd tell. As long as it doesn't go too far off track, I'm happy. (Can I point out that I loved 'The End of Time' btw.? Because I did, and as far as I can tell, this is not a popular opinion. I think S2 Doctor/Rose a bit cloying, but I still cry when I watch 'Doomsday'. These are the stories we have, maybe they could have been better, but that is a moot point. They could also have been worse. The 'should have been' position I don't understand.)
So, about Amy and feminism and Moffat and RTD and writing strong female characters. Well others have spoken about Amy quite eloquently. Personally I am exceedingly fond of her, since she's a wonderfully complex, flawed and rather damaged character, and I might write some proper meta on her some day. For now, let's just say that her outfits are the least interesting thing about her, imho.
Now before I deal with writing women, and RTD Vs. Moffat, let me talk about Joss Whedon for a moment. Joss, as everyone knows, sees himself as something of a feminist. And Buffy the Vampire Slayer is, for the most part, brilliant in this respect. It has strong women characters to overflowing, a heroine who is flawed and brilliant and strong, and I love her to distraction. However, Joss has created other shows. Let's look at Angel for a moment, since it is Buffy's 'sister'-show/spin-off. Is AtS full of strong women. Hmm. Yes and no. The gender problems on AtS are many, and difficult, and every major female character gets killed off. Some of them in ways that are rather infuriating. I happen to love Angel very, very, very much (it's good I don't have to choose between BtVS and AtS, 'cause I'd never be able to), but I can still see the genderfail quite clearly.
It seems to me, that RTD shares a lot of the same flaws and strengths as Joss. Because whilst there are definitely problems with the way he writes women (especially older women) on Doctor Who (for some good meta on the problematic nature of Rose and Donna's fates can I point you here), it is a fact that on Torchwood his women tend to rock - especially in 'Children of Earth' which has a huge number of strong female characters, all of them as complex and rich and different from each other as the male ones. Why does he fall down in one who and shine in another? I don't know. But I know that I adore Rose, Martha and Donna (as well as Suzie and Tosh and Gwen) to absolute pieces, and that my world would be less without them. (Ditto Amy and River.)
Most important of all (to me) they're all interesting. They're all part of my show, and because I love my show, I love them too, even though I identify more with some than with others. All I ask is that they're well written, and on the whole they are.
I think I was going to say something about Moffat too, wasn't I? Well looked at objectively, Moffat is (so far) better at writing women on DW than RTD. However, he's failing (so far) when it comes to including anything approaching queerness. So... swings and roundabouts?
*sighs*
I dunno. I just love my show. If it's got strong, well written women (who don't end up dead) fantastic. If it doesn't kill off all the POC (maybe even gives them good stories) - even better. If it also has gay people - better still. But they're... additional bonuses, and I don't necessarily expect them. Which I guess means that either I'm deeply cynical or a complete Pollyanna. Or a bit of both. :)
And that's it. I'm honestly not sure what I was trying to say, but it's there now. Thoughts anyone?
no subject
Yes, that's exactly how I feel too!
It's what fandom does, though, stretching things far from what the writer intended - which is neither an exclusive nor a bad thing (it's how I get through most of my English classes, really) and I like to read what fandom has to say about how they saw a particular thing, because it helps me get perspective as well (as long as they're nice about it).
*nods* I've been turning this subject upside down and inside out in my head, and I think that often people dislike something, and then go looking for reasons to back up their feelings. And what results may be perfectly valid critique, but unfortunately coloured by their subjective response. (Good Lord I hope that makes sense.)
Though yes, they should be made aware of this.
Oh yes. And this ties in with what I said above - so often it's those who are disenchanted who speak up, and then get dismissed when the point they're trying to make gets overshadowed by emotions. (I think I'm veering off from your points rather wildly. Sorry. But you made me think!)
As far as having an agenda - well, if you look at Merlin, there was a lot of kerfuffle about the character Gwen
I don't watch Merlin, but I've heard of the kerfuffle, and yes, that is certainly a very tricky situation where almost anything you do can me misconstrued in some way. Tangents are good!
So much truth in that. It's my main thing about Martha - she was awesome, but it sucked that she had to go all unrequited love on the Doctor just after he lost Rose.
Oooh yes. And i sort of <3 her even more than I otherwise would because she got stuck with such a thankless storyline, you know?
But I'll love the show as long as the actors and characters are great and the writing is relatively okay :D
Me too! (I generally stop watching shows when I get bored. No chance of that with Doctor Who so far!)
Thank you lots for your comment btw. - you managed to put lots of things into words that I was struggling with!
no subject
*nods vigorously* This, this. Though the problem sometimes is that it people sometimes just don't like things on instinct, whether for irrational or prejudiced reasons, and however objectively they try to judge things and like things, it will never really align with how anyone else would see it. And people get frustrated, especially when their opinion seems like such a minority and they feel left out, when they're trying to enjoy themselves but just can't, and everyone else doesn't really get it (run-on sentence there, oops). Though it's a totally different story when people are just plain old aggressive.
And i sort of <3 her even more than I otherwise would because she got stuck with such a thankless storyline, you know?
Hee, yeah, I have a love/hate relationship with series 3 (or however you refer to it as ;) because I loved the characters so much but whenever they good moody I got frustrated. But Martha leaving the Doctor to be her own kind of brilliant was just so great on her part because she was so loyal to him but got trodden over so badly. And some people think that that was whiny of her, which is understandable, but while I'm watching I'm just loving it the way I see it.
I think I'm veering off from your points rather wildly. Sorry. But you made me think!
As you said, tangents are good! :D
But having talked about this all over the place, I'll admit that I've never actually taken a peek at one of the discussions that have started all this. I've noticed that people seem to have been 'inspired' by others' posts to voice their own opinion (which perhaps has caused it to escalate the way it has) and people respond very strongly with their own, which has maybe brought out all the antagonism that has kinda put fandom at opposite ends since the beginning of the series? Which is terrible, because Who has always been pretty civil - I saw a debate earlier on which ended with one person saying that it was just one of the things that was preferential and wished that they could enjoy the series as much as the other did. But I digress.
(also, may I friend you? I've read quite a few of your metas since I joined (but until now have been too timid to write anything), and they're very insightful.)
no subject
*nods a lot* I f.ex. disliked the finale of S2 of Being Human, but virtually everyone else was squeeing, so I just... said nothing, because although I think my concerns are valid, clearly the story worked for most people. *shrugs* (Also, run-on sentences are good!)
Hee, yeah, I have a love/hate relationship with series 3 (or however you refer to it as ;) because I loved the characters so much but whenever they good moody I got frustrated.
My main problem was the fact that it took so long to get good - there were a lot of mediocre episodes, and I was getting rather fed up when suddenly everything became awesome. :)
But Martha leaving the Doctor to be her own kind of brilliant was just so great on her part because she was so loyal to him but got trodden over so badly. And some people think that that was whiny of her, which is understandable, but while I'm watching I'm just loving it the way I see it.
I'm just the same! Martha Is Awesome, and that's the show I'm watching!
But having talked about this all over the place, I'll admit that I've never actually taken a peek at one of the discussions that have started all this. I've noticed that people seem to have been 'inspired' by others' posts to voice their own opinion (which perhaps has caused it to escalate the way it has) and people respond very strongly with their own, which has maybe brought out all the antagonism that has kinda put fandom at opposite ends since the beginning of the series?
I have to admit that I've not read any of the original posts either. But from what I can gather it was people disliking Amy (which, you know, is their prerogative), and then using things like her miniskirts to justify their dislike - and then other jumping in to defend her, but often pointing out flaws in RTD's era at the same time and then everything got nasty... :(
Which is terrible, because Who has always been pretty civil
Hmmm. I dunno. But then I tend to stay away from all arguments, so... :)
also, may I friend you? I've read quite a few of your metas since I joined (but until now have been too timid to write anything), and they're very insightful.
Oh absolutely! Welcome to. I like to ramble a lot and sometimes I write fic. Make yourself at home!
no subject
Oh, that sucks. That's the thing about these communities, though. Agree and everyone's happy, but sometimes a different opinion can be alienating. But like we've been saying, in the end it's our own show that we're watching when we watch, even if it's not the same one the writer or everyone else is. (I think I just repeated what you replied to there, sorry :S) And at least you're not getting worked up about it, which just leads to people thinking irrationally and things getting out of hand as they do.
And added you! :)
no subject
Oh it was just my flist (I'm very wary of communities, for the reasons you cite), but I didn't want to harsh other people's squee. Also, I like the show, but I'm not obsessed with it the way I am with Doctor Who. (And really, ranting would accomplish nothing, so I just didn't bother.) ETA: Just remembered a much better example: I am one of about three people in total who didn't like 'Midnight'. I can see why it's good, but I just didn't like it, plain and simple, so I generally avoid discussions about it. :)
But like we've been saying, in the end it's our own show that we're watching when we watch, even if it's not the same one the writer or everyone else is. (I think I just repeated what you replied to there, sorry :S)
Don't be sorry, I'm glad that you agree. And actually, it's something I see a lot in posts where people squee about S5 - the fact that clearly all the haters must watch a completely different programme. :) (You've read Your Friends Are Not Watching the Same Show You Are (And That's Okay), right?)
And at least you're not getting worked up about it, which just leads to people thinking irrationally and things getting out of hand as they do.
I am the very picture of calmness and rational thinking! ;) And welcome!
no subject
That's probably the main thing there. Most of the time people don't set out to be parade-rainers (on?), but they are perceived to be anyway. and And it's very considerate of you, especially because it must be frustrating (or the like) sometimes :)
Ah, and thanks so much for the link! So much truth there, and it made me grin.
no subject
*nods* Which is why I only click on the positive reviews on who_daily, sparing myself the grief. :)
And it's very considerate of you, especially because it must be frustrating (or the like) sometimes :)
Well it is only once in a blue moon that I actually dislike something, and - having been a Buffy fan for years - I am used to fanwanking anything that doesn't work. Being a Joss fan also prepared me very well for writers breaking my heart. That's just how it works...