Look, I had a *thought*!

[elisi]

First though, I must wish the Happiest of Birthdays to earth_vexer! May you continue to vex the earth for many, many years to come! :)

****
But! The Queen of Polls, gabrielleabelle, made a poll about which show is more adult/mature/dark - Buffy or Angel? Now it's tempting to go for Angel, but otoh there's few things as dark as S6 of BtVS... So, instead of doing the poll, I started turning the problem over in my head, because the shows are both dark, but in different way. And then I had a minor epiphany - the main character of each series is a reflection of the show overall:

BtVS is about a good person who's had darkness forced upon her.

AtS is about a bad person who's had goodness forced upon him.

I think everything springs from this.

Comments

[shapinglight]

I think that sums it up very neatly.

[elisi]

Doesn't it just? It's nice to feel clever now and again. :)

[frenchani.livejournal.com]

I've always thought that BTVS had more depth and was less accessible than Ats and therefore more adult, even though the characters in Ats were more adult.

I still think it's true.

[elisi]

Hmmm. Yes, I can see were you're coming from. (I think the general way of describing them is that Buffy is about growing up, and Angel is about family. Personally I love them both! *g*)

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

Whoa. Way to boil down twelve seasons into two sentences! But that might just be the best simple contrast summation I've ever seen about the two shows. I think it definitely rings true. Thanks for sharing your little epiphany! :)

[elisi]

Whoa. Way to boil down twelve seasons into two sentences! But that might just be the best simple contrast summation I've ever seen about the two shows.
*beams* I'm feeling clever today! :) Thank you for commenting!

[elisi]

::frowns::

Where did my reply go? LJ is *really* playing up. Let's hope it turns up again...

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

...That's so strange! I definitely got the email for the comment. Weird, LJ. Really, really weird...

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

IMO you're not wrong.

[elisi]

Thank you! *g*

[green-maia.livejournal.com]

Interesting! Must think about this...

[elisi]

Excellent, I love your thoughts! :)

[candleanfeather.livejournal.com]

Frenchani said what I wanted to say. Ats never really convinced me, and IMO took itself much more too seriously (though they were able from time to time to make fun at this).

I'm not sure I agree with how you sum up the two shows, especially in the case of Ats. It works in the case of Btvs if we think about it in terms of how life's circumstances (for ex living in violent environement...) can reinforce our dark sides and turn us into violent persons or persons who have to fight hard against their own dark impulses. The opposite reverse doesn't work so well: how do you force goodness on someone? Seems a bit contradictory in terms.

[elisi]

A vampire with a soul is the very definition of a contradiction in terms I think! *g* (Will be back later - must go do the school run, unfortunately.)

ETA: OK, back again. Mostly I was being extremely literal, although maybe I should have used the word 'humanity' instead of goodness. But - Buffy is a girl (souled being) who gets demonic power, and Angel is a demon who gets a soul. In both cases it's against their will, but I think they both try to use what they have for the sake of good, even though their darkness is something they continually have to fight.

[candleanfeather.livejournal.com]

"Mostly I was being extremely literal"I understood that and you're right humanity is a better choice than goodness, having a soul was never the exact equivalent of being good in the verse.

What I was pointing at is that the concept of goodness, which is an interior quality, makes the idea of forcing it onto somebody something impossible: you can force laws, behaviours etc on someone. Litteraly it's what happened to Angel with his curse but from a philosphical POV it's totally flawed. It works in the limits of the show because we're in the domain of myth and because the authors wisely put the focus on the consequences : the fight between good and bad in all of us. The idea works better for Spike because he wanted the soul, you can read it as a metaphor for an interior journey towards goodness and humanity. But still even in his case, there's a little something with this imagery that'll always feel like a cheap deus ex machina. Perhaps it's because the soul quest was treated in such a light manner.

[elisi]

Where did my comment go? Did you get it? I swear it was there and now it's just GONE!

*kicks LJ soundly*

[candleanfeather.livejournal.com]

I got the email for the comment and it made me laugh! LJ is really wonky, it'll probably reappear, but nonetheless kicks LJ with you.

And wanted to add, your shortcut put into light the weakness of the premise of the show on this particular point.

[elisi]

I got the email for the comment and it made me laugh!
Oh good! :)

And wanted to add, your shortcut put into light the weakness of the premise of the show on this particular point.
I seem to remember Joss(?) saying at some point [in reply to a question about souls] that 'the soul means whatever we want it to mean at any particular point' (or, you know, words to that effect) which really is spectacularly unhelpful when trying to get coherent meaning out of the show(s).

Sorry about the convolutedness of this, btw.

[rahirah]

I'd disagree that Buffy had darkness forced on her. I would bet that if she had never been the Slayer at all, and she'd just gone through normal Bad Life Stuff - her mother dying, her father abandoning her to raise a sister with no skill and no money - she'd have ended up doing something very similar to S6. Emotional isolation, borderline self-destructive sleeping around. The only difference would have been that she would have been the one in danger of getting beaten up by her 'boyfriends', rather than the reverse.

Just as with Angel, it's not the monster in her than needs killing.

[spikes-wish.livejournal.com]

I think elisi was more referring to the ideas of the soul (equating to goodness), and the slayer, part of a demon, equating to darkness.

And if Buffy hadn't have been the Slayer, then she probably wouldn't have felt so emotionally isolated-"Being the Slayer made me different. It was my fault I stayed that way". A lot of Buffy's issues surround her identity as the Slayer. Her parents might have never gotten divorced, she might have done a lot better in school, and she never would have had a sister relying on her.

[elisi]

I think elisi was more referring to the ideas of the soul (equating to goodness), and the slayer, part of a demon, equating to darkness.
Indeed. I'm thinking that maybe I should have used the word 'humanity' rather than 'goodness'.

A lot of Buffy's issues surround her identity as the Slayer.
Excellent point. Thank you so much for your comment! :)

[elisi]

Hmm. I can see what you're saying - and it's a good point - but it's not really what I mean. Maybe I should have used 'humanity' rather than 'goodness'...

spikes_wish has already pointed out one aspect, and I'd say that considering the number of people who are deeply troubled by the Slayer spell in 'Chosen', a Slayer is not just a girl with superpowers, and the darkness of the demon runs deeper than their own. Buffy *does* get off on killing things, and that is not something natural.

[green-maia.livejournal.com]

a Slayer is not just a girl with superpowers, and the darkness of the demon runs deeper than their own.

Yes.

Also: Buffy goes through things that one in real life goes through. There's no real-life equivalent to constantly being the only person who can keep the world from ending. There's no real-life equivalent to having Angel's soul restored and then having to kill him - and not just kill him but send him to hell. There's no real-life equivalent to thinking that the world might end if she doesn't kill the sister who feels like a daughter to her.

There are real-life equivalents to some of what Buffy goes through - but those of us lucky enough to have never lived in war zones can't really imagine them.

And then there are all the normal stresses and strains of life which Buffy also goes through. And the devastating losses.

Buffy is serially traumatized. No one could go through what she goes through without breaking.

[elisi]

Also: Buffy goes through things that one in real life goes through.
Indeed. And I think that in some ways her Slayer-ness helps. Not in a 'makes it better' kinda way, but in the way that she can use her emotions to fight, if that makes sense. One of the main ways Buffy wins is by 'out-determining' the enemy - emotions *are* power.

Which was a tangent I think...

Buffy is serially traumatized. No one could go through what she goes through without breaking.
Yes, she is obviously traumatised. But I don't think she's broken broken. I think she's stronger than that, and that she goes on to have a wonderful life. :)

PS. Have you seen Bachelorette?

[green-maia.livejournal.com]

Have you seen Bachelorette?

I hadn't seen it. Just did. It's...interesting.

Kind of fascinates me that people can see the same story and see such different meaning in it.

[elisi]

Well I think it's more about analysing the story from a different angle. However, that ending is so *my* Buffy. :)

[sdwolfpup.livejournal.com]

Ooh. I agree with your summations!

[elisi]

:)

[skipthedemon.livejournal.com]

Ooh. Those summation are really very insightful and clever.

[elisi]

Thank you! :)

(For some reason your comment isn't showing up in my LJ, so I'm trying to see if this'll work. ETA: It does! Except now it looks as if I'm commenting on my own entry. Stupid LJ! *kicks it soundly*)

[hello-spikey.livejournal.com]

That is the thinkiest of thoughts!
*applauds*

[elisi]

Why thank you!

*curtsies*

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

Like I said on Gabriellabelle's LJ, I like that summary! Obviously it's not the whole story, but it's a good way to encapsulate it.

I love them both without reason, but I do think AtS is darker in a lot of ways. I've never been able to re-watch the last half of season 3 for example.

One reason I rearely bother to read "AH everybody human" fic is that the slayer/ vampireness is such an integral part of these characters. It's what makes the fluffy little cheerleader dark, but it's what makes her interesting!

[elisi]

Obviously it's not the whole story, but it's a good way to encapsulate it.
Yes, I thought so too - when looking at the aspects Gabs was pondering! :)

I love them both without reason, but I do think AtS is darker in a lot of ways. I've never been able to re-watch the last half of season 3 for example.
*nods* The fact that they brought in a child (not to mention Angel in S2), really took the show places Buffy couldn't go. And I love S3! It's amazing! (Well, parts of it... *g*)

It's what makes the fluffy little cheerleader dark, but it's what makes her interesting!
Oh yes. Human AUs do nothing for me either.