elisi | The Kiss. (EoD/Chosen)

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The Kiss. (EoD/Chosen)

Fact: The kiss lasts 5-6 seconds. Everything 'soppy' afterwards, up to and including the ‘basking’, approximately another 20. After that they’re all business.

Just thought you might like to know that.

*****

But to start, let me refer back to my previous post: Joss is a bastard. We should be happy that all we had to deal with was a chaste little kiss.

Now I’ve written about The Kiss before of course: here (when I looked at how it fitted with Spike’s story - it was there to test if his love was really selfless), and here: It was... a hello (Buffy POV fic, trying to get inside her head). I’m going a different route today.

First let me point out that the B/A scenes provide the bridge between these last two episodes - from looking back, to looking forward. And it does so rather well.

But going back to another point from yesterday - I’m going to look at this problematic exchange again:

Spike: Were you there with me?
Buffy: I was.
Spike: What does that mean?

People tend to hate Buffy’s non-committant ‘Does it have to mean something?’, but just for a moment lets consider some the questions hidden with in Spike’s simple words:

- Do you want to get (back) together?
- Or do you just want to be friends?
- Was it the bittersweet end of what we had?
- Was it the beginning of something new?
- Am I your boyfriend?
- Are you in love with me?

I borrowed the last ones from Angel, since he asks them directly later on. And Buffy doesn’t have an answer beyond ‘He is in my heart’.

Her ‘Does it have to mean something?’ isn’t a snub or a rejection - it’s her (rather awkward) way of buying time, because she doesn’t have an answer. All year she’s been telling everyone (herself included) that she’s not getting back together with Spike. And yet... and yet there is something there and she isn’t sure what to do. See when she dated Angel everything was simple: They loved each other, and it was nice. Which is why I think she falls into Angel's arms - he’s uncomplicated and she knows where she stands with him. She can give him a kiss, but it doesn’t change anything. It’s a bit of a dream come true, and she wants to indulge herself, just for a minute. Or 5 seconds, rather.

*****

Anyway, there’s a parallel that I’ve often considered but never developed until now. So let me give it a go:

The scenes with Angel are Buffy’s version of ‘Crush’.

- In ‘Crush’, Spike was pursuing his new love for Buffy. But she was less than forthcoming and he despaired of her ever seeing things his way. And just then Dru arrived - a flesh and blood reminder of how wonderfully simple things used to be. And she wanted him back! (“I want us to be a family again my sweet William.”) So he gave it a try - went out with her, and she killed a girl for him. There is that hesitation before he feeds... and yet he gives in. But the blood has not had time to dry on his lips before he decides that it’s not what he wants anymore - and goes straight back to Buffy.

- In EoD Buffy is the one who pursues a reluctant Spike, and has to almost force him to admit what their night together meant to him. But it’s not an easy situation - she isn’t sure where they go from here, and he keeps trying to shut her down. And just then Angel arrives - a flesh and blood reminder of how wonderfully simple things used to be. And he wants to stay! (“So you’re with me in this?” “Shoulder to shoulder!”) So she gives it a try - after the tiniest of hesitations she kisses him. But with his taste still on her lips she decides that this is not what she wants anymore - and goes straight back to Spike.

See the Buffy/Angel kiss reminds me of another Xander/Anya conversation:

Xander: Yeah, I knew we'd always do that again.
Anya: Yeah, one more time anyway.
Xander: Is that what that was? One more time?
Anya: Do you think there should be more?
Xander: I don't know. It was nice. It felt, um—it felt like a one more time.
Anya: I think maybe we're really over. Which is—it's good, right? I mean, now we can move on.
Storyteller

This scene is a mirror of Xander and Anya’s first time, which was supposed to help them ‘get over each other’.

Anya : So, I'm over you now.
Xander : Um, Ok.
Anya : Okay?!
Harsh Light Of Day

Buffy and Angel began with a kiss - a kiss that was supposed to be the end. Didn’t work. Like the X/A sex, the B/A kiss is closure... because it wasn’t painful. I was nice:

Angel: It's just...
Buffy: ...painful. I know. See you around?
Angel (BtVS 1.07)

Angel: Well, I guess that qualifies as "happy to see me."
Buffy: Angel, what are you doing— Don't even. I just want to bask.
Chosen

See I think that in her mind, Buffy had turned Angel into The Perfect Romantic Hero, which isn’t surprising really (someone commented on how much The Kiss resembled the B/S almost-kiss in ‘Storyteller’. It’s all a bit over the top). But when reality came knocking she realised that he was just a guy... a guy that still had a piece of her heart maybe, but not someone she needed anymore. Only she couldn’t know that without trying. In that kiss she finally let go of Angel - stopped seeing him through the eyes of a 16-year-old, and saw him for who he was. They'd come full circle.

That’s my take, and I hope it might help you.

*****

I’m going to do even more comparing I’m afraid - because there was another time when one of Buffy’s ex’s showed up and found out that she was seeing Spike... and what a difference a year makes!

Bizarrely (given how much I loathe this AYW scene) I love the fact that smell is a factor every time:

Riley: Hey! You want me to say that I liked seeing you in bed with that idiot? Or that blinding orange is your very best color? Or that that ... burger smell is appealing?
Buffy: (upset) You smelled the smell?
~~~
Angel: Is it Spike? You're not telling me something. And his scent, I remember it pretty well.
Buffy: You vampires. Did anybody ever tell you the whole smelling people thing's a little gross?

Of course the DMP smell is symbolic of everything that’s wrong in Buffy’s life (in her mind: SPIKE!), but come ‘Chosen’ the smell of Spike is a good thing. She’s not the least bit ashamed of it, and tells Angel that *he’s* the one who shouldn’t be sniffing around. (Also I love Angel being petty. It’s one of my favourite scenes *ever*.) Her relationship with Spike is no longer her problem, but her ex’s! That is a very big and important shift.

Also, this time she defends Spike!

Buffy: Look, i-it can't be, okay? He-he's too incompetent. It's just Spike, Riley.
Riley: Right. Deadly ... amoral ... opportunistic. Or have you forgotten?
~~~
Angel: OK, maybe I'm outta line, but this is kind of a curve ball for me. I mean, we are talking about Spike here.
Buffy: It's different. He's different. He has a soul now. [...]
Angel: Everyone's got a soul now.
Buffy: He'll make a difference.

And rather than hating herself for being with him, she acknowledges how important he is to her.

Riley: But I have authorization to take the Doctor out. (pause) Do you want me to do that?
Buffy: Do I want you to... How can you ask me ... I'm sleeping with hi-him. (carefully) I'm sleeping with Spike.
~~~
Angel: Aha! Boyfriend!
Buffy: He's not. But...he is in my heart.

Going with these parallels, we can also see just how much better Buffy feels about herself now. She doesn’t think that things going wrong with Angel were mostly her fault, like she did Riley:

Buffy: I never got the chance ... to tell you ... how sorry I was. About what happened between us.
~~~
Buffy: What was the highlight of our relationship? When you broke up with me or when I killed you?

******

I love the fact that I feel the scope of the graveyard which is where I thought Buffy and Angel should leave their relationship on this show, because it is the iconic place for Buffy - the graveyard - more than anything else.
Joss Whedon, commentary for ‘Chosen’

So Joss might have done a lot of pandering to the B/A crowd, but so what. Cemeteries is where dead things go. ‘Nuff said.

ETA: OMG this is so *harsh*. Sorry. B/A is a very pretty ship and I love it very dearly. Dunno if they could ever work out, but who are we to say they couldn't?

******

Finally, there is one thing that I really, really like about Buffy’s “Sometimes... I think that far ahead.” It’s Angel’s response - he lets her know that if she were to chose him, he’d not say no. And that - from the guy who dumped in her The Prom because she was just a little girl who couldn’t see what was best for her - is very important! Also she tells him to go away, and he does. He actually treats her like an adult who can make her own decisions. 4 years is a long time to wait for that, but my goodness I’m glad they went there!

Finally, compare and contrast:

Buffy: I think horrible is still coming. Right now, it's worse. Right now, I'm just trying to keep from dying.
Willow: Oh Buffy.
Buffy: I can't breathe, Will. I feel like I can't breathe.
The Prom

Buffy: There were no tongues. Besides, he's gone.
Spike: Oh, just popped by for a quickie, then?
Buffy: Good, good. I haven't had quite enough jealous vampire crap for one night.
Chosen

It would seem time really *does* heal all wounds... and lets people move on. To quote SMG:

"There’s a part of me that will always believe that Angel was Buffy’s true love. That there will be a piece of her heart that will always be with him for the rest of her life. It doesn’t mean that’s the person that she’s meant to be with eternally. The thing about Buffy and Spike is they understand each other on a level that nobody else understands her. They’ve both lived a hundred lives and I think there’s a connection there that we will see evolve over the next couple of years where she realizes that he really is someone that she can trust, someone that’s a companion to her and someone that really understands her unlike anybody else."

But the last word should be Joss’:

“There were a few fans who feel that the Buffy Angel romance was, like, a big deal, and clearly I thought Parker was the most important romantic relationship of her life - other people disagreed. That’s fine, I guess they can do that ”
Joss Whedon.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Is it just me or did Buffy look kinda guilty after she kissed Angel? I dunno, she wasn't as excited to see him after she killed Caleb. She looked like she wanted him gone. I think Angel will always be a sore spot in Buffy's heart, like she is in Angel's, I think they'll always love each other and will never really "get over" one another. But that doesn't mean they can't love other people, even more than they love each other.

Xander: I don't know. It was nice. It felt, um—it felt like a one more time.
Anya: I think maybe we're really over. Which is—it's good, right? I mean, now we can move on.

Every time I watch this scene, I feel Xander isn't ready to let go, but Anya here makes the decision for them, and Xander accepts what she says, but he doesn't really seem on board.

dunno, she wasn't as excited to see him after she killed Caleb.
She stopped seeing him through heart shaped glasses....

But that doesn't mean they can't love other people, even more than they love each other.
Oh thank you for that - it reminded me of a SMG quote I was going to use, but then forgot! :)

Xander accepts what she says, but he doesn't really seem on board.
Me too. Although it's far better than what the shooting script did.

Buffy and Angel began with a kiss - a kiss that was supposed to be the end. Didn’t work. Like the X/A sex, the B/A kiss is closure... because it wasn’t painful. It was nice:

Good point!

Thanks. :) It struck me, that it was a lot like 'The Killer In Me' - except it took a lot longer...

Thank you so much for walking me through that potentially painful 'kiss'. I think you've done a great job at explaining all of the characters' though processes. I may even be able to watch it again...

My pleasure. And really - blink and you miss it! Also the aftermath is wonderful. The way Buffy suddenly backs way off, and Angel gets all petualant... *happy sigh*

Actually, that does help quite a bit.

Really? ::is very pleased::

I remember that in the middle of season 7 ME tried to invite Blucas as guest-star but dropped the negociations as soon as it became evident that TheWB agreed to lend David.

But, obviously, Joss has already mentally written the scene with Riley. He had to twitch it to accomodate to another Buffy's suitor, but EOD scene echoes back Riley's jamesbondish arrival in AYW in EOD scene.

I find it very indicative that AoQ found the scene mocking; it's a fresh regard of a person who's far, far away from shipper debates.

but dropped the negociations as soon as it became evident that TheWB agreed to lend David
Woohoo! There is a God! *g*

Joss has already mentally written the scene with Riley.
Hmmm... I'm not sure. I don't feel that Buff would do the cookie dough speech to Riley, and he would know about Spike already, so it would be so much fun... Petty!Angel is one of my favourite things ever! :)

it's a fresh regard of a person who's far, far away from shipper debates.
::nods:: He even mentioned how obviously Angel was filtered through Buffy's adoring eyes... which is funny, since he turns into 12-year-old Angel later. The shine came off! ;)

I don't feel that Buff would do the cookie dough speech to Riley, and he would know about Spike already, so it would be so much fun... Petty!Angel is one of my favourite things ever! :)

I love Petty!Angel too, and I totally agree that Riley instead of Angel wouldn't have been that interesting - but I still got the impression that the mood, the lightness, the deliberate set-up quality of the scene is the direct result of Joss originally planning it for Riley.

As to Cookie Dough Speech - I don't know. According to Joss, it was Marti's idea. Joss just adapted it to Angel's parameters and sprinkled it with humor.

the direct result of Joss originally planning it for Riley.
Still not convinced... he never meantions it on the commentary. Anyway, it's not really like it's terrribly important! *g*

According to Joss, it was Marti's idea.
Marti is not evil after all...

Her ‘Does it have to mean something?’ isn’t a snub or a rejection - it’s her (rather awkward) way of buying time, because she doesn’t have an answer. Yes , I agree. Of course when I was watching the scene for the first time , I felt Spike's rejection so sharply , it became mine , but I tried , tried to see things according to Buffy' s point of view , and I came to the same conclusion as you.
It wasn't really the time to allow herself to think of a future with Spike , there was a big battle ahead of them.

I enjoyed reading your thoughts on THE kiss.
What bothered me was the fact that it was so obvious that Joss has been pandering there . I have nothing against Buffy/Angel love , they still have each other in a little corner of their heart , but showing us a scene where they kiss while Spike is watching was gratuitous angst (for the spuffies ).
A hug , or a quick little kiss might have been more 'believable'.

I always loved the scene between Angel and Buffy in the graveyard , too.
Not because she was letting him go - but because Buffy acknowledged Spike's place in her heart indeed. :)

It wasn't really the time to allow herself to think of a future with Spike , there was a big battle ahead of them.
Exactly. Which is another thing about being The Slayer - she can't have a private life the way other people can. Poor Buffy - it's another reason I love Chosen!

showing us a scene where they kiss while Spike is watching was gratuitous angst
Funnily enough Joss doesn't mention it at all on the commentary...

but because Buffy acknowledged Spike's place in her heart indeed. :)
Me too. :)

*Is bemused*

As someone who's also "far, far away from shipper debates" I have to say that Buffy and Angel kissing at the end of 'End of Days' never struck me as a big deal at all... I was far more bothered by why Spike should be there with The First, and did it mean they were working together now?

(With hindsight, I'm more inclined to believe that Spike had followed Buffy on his own, intending to help her; and when he saw her with Angel The First materialised at that precise moment to get Its little dig in. Although that rather invites the question why Spike didn't join in to help Buffy fight Caleb...)

As for them kissing... well, she thinks she's quite likely to die tomorrow, Angel has just saved her life, she's surprised and happy to see him, and he was her first great love (and, if you recall, he left her, not vice-versa). Heck, _I'd_ certainly expect a hug and a kiss in such a situation...

As for 'Does it have to mean anything?' - it's all of a piece with the infamous cookie dough metaphor. Buffy knows the Apocalypse is coming, and thinks this one might actually be the real deal. Even if it isn't, she can't really see any kind of life for herself other than fighting and killing and averting more apocalypses year after year. She doesn't want to think ahead, she doesn't want to make long-term plans, because it will only lead to more heartache. Worse still, she's just been through a major rift with her friends and allies, and it's not really healed yet. She's back to lead them, but it was only thanks to her own efforts that she recovered the Scythe, not them. There's still some uncomfortableness there. In short, she's still resigned to being basically alone for the rest of her life. Opening up emotionally to other people is a vulnerability she can't risk. Complicated emotional questions about what things mean are not something she wants to deal with right now.

Which is, of course, why she smiles at the end of the series... because she's not alone, and for the first time since she was 15 she genuinely feels that she's got her whole life ahead of her, and she's free to do what she wants to do, and not what her Sacred Destiny compels her to do...

*Is bemused*
Heh. I love fandom, but I'll be eternally grateful that I didn't find it until after Buffy had finished. The fact that there were people out there who *hated* Buffy/Spike/Willow etc. threw me completely. Not to mention the fact that some people were traumatised by the show.

Me? I just loved it!

I'm more inclined to believe that Spike had followed Buffy on his own, intending to help her
From End of Days:
Spike: Well, maybe I'll swing by the vineyard when you go, make sure he's sitting tight.
He came by to see how she was doing - and found her smooching Angel. No wonder The First jumped at the opportunity!

Heck, _I'd_ certainly expect a hug and a kiss in such a situation...
It never bothered me all that much, except it *does* make Buffy look a little cheap! ;) (If you want more thoughts on the subject read the fic - I put a lot into it!)

she's not alone, and for the first time since she was 15 she genuinely feels that she's got her whole life ahead of her
I adore 'Chosen' in many, many ways, but this is one of the primary ones. Look - I even have an icon! :)

I decided to post the answer in its proper place.

There are many interesting moments in this episode, and much to think about,
and most of it got overshadowed by two controversial scenes. Lets’ go to the
kiss first. I don’t like it much, but I understand Buffy here, the emotional
truth of this kiss, and I accept it. And it really plays well in your theory
of “looking back”. I cannot possibly say that I am just like Buffy, but I
understand her much more than any other characters on the show – and more
often than not I can find emotional parallels between her and me. Here is
what I am coming to: my own experience proves that this kiss makes sense.
May 2003 I spent in Russia, and after that I watched all episodes from EP to
Chosen in short succession (it actually lead to the fact that perceived them
as one episode for a long time after that). In Russia among other people –
friends and casual acquaintances I saw a guy on whom I had a crush at 14. No
giant doomed love there; it passed as those things do, and he (I hope) had
no idea about the whole thing. I met him in the company I hang out a lot at
14-16, and we all had a really nice time together, feeling slightly
nostalgic about a time we seemed so old to ourselves, and for a moment I
felt 14 again. Just for that moment the shadow of my 14-years old self
complete with all the feelings and thoughts and stuff came crushing down on
me. It was.. actually sweet. I don’t even like that guy for a long time now,
but yeah… I get Buffy. Besides, there is an interesting juxtaposition
between the end of EoD and start of Chosen: first, Caleb is slain and the
kiss is sweet, second, Caleb is not quite dead, and our heroes.. are not
that sweet anymore. Hee.

Thanks so much for 're-posting' - I kept forgetting to reply to your e-mail, and I like your thoughts. :)

I don’t like it much, but I understand Buffy here, the emotional truth of this kiss, and I accept it.
Same here.

first, Caleb is slain and the kiss is sweet, second, Caleb is not quite dead, and our heroes.. are not that sweet anymore. Hee.
Interesting...

Here via su_herald.

To me the kiss served many purposes (one being to throw the B/A shippers a bone).

My first thought was that both these people were seeing what was not, but might seem in retrospect, a simpler time. Buffy had just had yet another argument with Spike. Angel had just seen the woman he loved slip into a coma, and had lost his son.

I think the big reason was the last temptation of Spike.

In any case, the discussion after the kiss was a deconstruction of the Buffy/Angel relationship with Angel's "I'm not getting any older" the equivalent of "Call me."

If you don't mind my two (or three) cents worth.

If you don't mind my two (or three) cents worth.
Not at all! Esp. since I agree with all your cents! ;) Also you've managed to distill the stuff I can make essays out of down to a few concise sentences - I really admire that!

And I might have had some clever thoughts, but they've been lost as I was chuckling over your icon! *g*

See I think that in her mind, Buffy had turned Angel into The Perfect Romantic Hero, which isn’t surprising really (someone commented on how much The Kiss resembled the B/S almost-kiss in ‘Storyteller’. It’s all a bit over the top). But when reality came knocking she realised that he was just a guy... a guy that still had a piece of her heart maybe, but not someone she needed anymore. Only she couldn’t know that without trying. In that kiss she finally let go of Angel - stopped seeing him through the eyes of a 16-year-old, and saw him for who he was. They'd come full circle.

This is how I saw it. And really ... seeing your first love again, no matter how "over" them you are, and in the circumstances ... it brings back the memory of that feeling strongly, if just for a moment ... bittersweet and fleeting, but it gets you in the gut. The kiss made perfect sense to me and I never felt angsty about it, or saw it as taking anything from the love Buffy had for Spike.

Like you, I'm so glad I didn't get into fandom until the show was over. I was able to enjoy it fresh and pure with no one else's opinions or expectations cluttering up my view. I just loved, loved the show and the characters without reservation. It shocked me to then find fandom and realize how much negativity there was towards characters & storylines, etc.

It's wonderful to read the views of someone who loves S6 and S7. I'm glad I came over to check out your journal! (I've friended you.)

Oh, and I gather from friends' posts that today is your birthday ~ so I hope you are having a very happy birthday! :)

I never felt angsty about it, or saw it as taking anything from the love Buffy had for Spike.
As

the_royal_anna once put it: I don't think we love in amounts. We love in ways.

I was able to enjoy it fresh and pure with no one else's opinions or expectations cluttering up my view. I just loved, loved the show and the characters without reservation.
That's it! :) And even now I still can't really resent any of the less good stuff very much...

It's wonderful to read the views of someone who loves S6 and S7.
I'm always happy to find someone else likeminded - I (well not just me of course!) even have a community:

lateseasonlove if you want to share the love?

And I had a fabulous birthday - thanks for making it even better! :)

Oh yes ~ I joined the lateseasonlove community! I know I'll enjoy it ~ even though I'll have to catch up mostly on the weekends. :)

You're planning to catch up? ::is impossibly impressed:: Seriously, I'm a mod and I really don't have the time to read everything... *sigh*

I LOVE YOU SO MUCH! *happy dance*
So, I have to quote everything now, just to spread the love.

She can give him a kiss, but it doesn’t change anything. It’s a bit of a dream come true, and she wants to indulge herself, just for a minute. Or 5 seconds, rather.

Let me say just AMEN.

See I think that in her mind, Buffy had turned Angel into The Perfect Romantic Hero, which isn’t surprising really (someone commented on how much The Kiss resembled the B/S almost-kiss in ‘Storyteller’. It’s all a bit over the top). But when reality came knocking she realised that he was just a guy... a guy that still had a piece of her heart maybe, but not someone she needed anymore. Only she couldn’t know that without trying. In that kiss she finally let go of Angel - stopped seeing him through the eyes of a 16-year-old, and saw him for who he was. They'd come full circle.

I totally agree! ç____ç
With everything. <3

I LOVE YOU SO MUCH! *happy dance*
Awww, thank you! ♥ And yeah, this whole issue... people get so worked up. When what actually happened is that Buffy ran right back to Spike. :)

I just wanted to say that I love this meta, particularly the way you break down the changes in Buffy and how she's grown; I also love that you bring in Riley and AYW and how he fits thematically (as much as I dislike the episode.)

The first time I watched the episode a few months ago I thought it was "fan pandering" too, but then on rewatch I got it, the way she allows herself a moment to feel a bit of the old romance, to bask briefly -lately feeling anything has become a rare luxury - and it gets to be simple and uncomplicated. For the remainder of the scene she is indeed an adult and ENTIRELY different here from all her interactions with Angel in S1-3.

I get the impression that some fans hate the ambiguity of "He's not my boyfriend...but he is in my heart". I think it's those who come down on Buffy VERY hard for not saying ILY to Spike; but I agree with you that Buffy's having a hard time parsing out her feelings and has never said "I love you" easily.

More to the point "He is in my heart" also says to me how much she has changed. Angel was her "boyfriend", her "lover", her view of relationships was simpler and neater, something that somehow could be labeled and fit into little boxes, the way our culture tells us it should be.

By avoiding any label, she acknowleges IMO that her relationship with Spike is not something that fits neatly into any boxes or labels; it's sprawling, messy, tender, and they have been to hell and back together.

And it acknowleges Spike's agency as an individual in the situation; that labeling him "my boyfriend" can be interpreted as a sort of "possession" of Spike, defined only by his relationship to her. Whereas, Angel is the one who wants a neat little label ("What are you, 12?") Buffy's worldview in this scene is more mature than Angel's. (I haven't watched AtS but I know that people who have say he's written OOC here, but that's beside the point for this discussion.)

I think SMG's comment address this nicely; although I disagree with her statement "I think Angel will always be her true love" just because I don't believe in the concept.(And because putting a label on it is the exact opposite of what Buffy does in this scene.) I agree with the_royal_anna's brilliant observation that you've quoted already: "We don't love in amounts, we love in ways."

Of course I can also interpret SMG's remarks as a bit of fanservice as well.

First of all: I love late comments. Truly. So this made me very happy! <3

I just wanted to say that I love this meta, particularly the way you break down the changes in Buffy and how she's grown; I also love that you bring in Riley and AYW and how he fits thematically (as much as I dislike the episode.)
Thank you so much. It's a tricky one, the whole kissing business, but having just skimmed over what I wrote, I think I still agree with what I said then. It always helps to step back and look at the context.

For the remainder of the scene she is indeed an adult and ENTIRELY different here from all her interactions with Angel in S1-3.
Also, it's interesting to listen to Joss' commentary - during the Buffy/Angel scenes he's terribly busy talking about how wonderfully the lighting is. During the Buffy/Spike scenes (at the end) he focusses completely on the relationship and the characters. Buffy and Angel are lovely, but... there's nothing terribly exciting to explore.

I think it's those who come down on Buffy VERY hard for not saying ILY to Spike; but I agree with you that Buffy's having a hard time parsing out her feelings and has never said "I love you" easily.
*nods* (And a lot of that is due to Angel.)

By avoiding any label, she acknowleges IMO that her relationship with Spike is not something that fits neatly into any boxes or labels; it's sprawling, messy, tender, and they have been to hell and back together.
*nods a lot*

Buffy's worldview in this scene is more mature than Angel's.
*coughs* That's not hard... ;)

I haven't watched AtS but I know that people who have say he's written OOC here, but that's beside the point for this discussion.
I adore AtS and would definitely recommend it - it's more uneven that BtVS (esp in the beginning) but it gets steadily better as time goes, and S5 has a whole string of my favourite episodes ever. Re. OOCness, then I don't think so - it's more that Angel puts on a show... He's in a pretty bad place, but he's not letting Buffy know (she has plenty of problems of her own, after all). The thing about Angel [on his own show - on BtVS he's a bit... dull] is that he's this fascinating combination of man!pain, dark hero and pettiness/daft, lovable guy. Basically, the writers made him subservient to Buffy's story, which is quite right considering that it's her show.

although I disagree with her statement "I think Angel will always be her true love" just because I don't believe in the concept.
There was a con a few years ago, with both SMG and JM on the panel, and someone asked her who Buffy's greatest love was/who she should end up with, and SMG smiled and pointed to JM, saying something about the guy who bothered to show up. So I guess she's changed her mind? *g*

I agree with the_royal_anna's brilliant observation that you've quoted already: "We don't love in amounts, we love in ways."
Everything the_royal_anna wrote is brilliant. I know whole swathes of her essays off by heart...

Thank you again for your comment - I love new people entering fandom, it marvellous. ♥

I think I still agree with what I said then. It always helps to step back and look at the context.

Oh absolutely! And again, reading lots of metas helped me process the different seasons (esp the late ones) - and the great thing about the show is the fact that it works on so many levels (emotionally and intellectually; literally and metaphorically) and it's something I NEED to process; I know of no other tv show I can say that of personally, although there are a few movies I can say that of (The Piano springs to mind).

Buffy and Angel are lovely, but... there's nothing terribly exciting to explore.

Can we get an Amen to that? BTW - if Bangel is meant to be subversive of the "true love" trope as gabrielleabelle says, then Twangel is meant to be the continuation of that, but...at the expense of beloved characters and 'ships? NOT cool.

(And a lot of that is due to Angel.)
YES. I still can't get the scene in The Prom out of my head where he breaks up with her IN A SEWER...which says a lot about how much he really "treasures" her (as in, not really). Which is a far cry from the reward of her peers she finally does receive at the actual prom. Given everything he put her through, and she cared for him when he came back from Hell, he owes her MUCH better treatment than that. *hugs Buffy*

There was a con a few years ago, with both SMG and JM on the panel, and someone asked her who Buffy's greatest love was/who she should end up with, and SMG smiled and pointed to JM, saying something about the guy who bothered to show up. So I guess she's changed her mind? *g*

I'm guessing that was the Paley convention in 2008? I know there are videos for that on YouTube, I just find it hard to sit through those things, maybe I should try. (I think DB and AH were the only major cast members not in attendance, although they were also the only ones with network TV shows so maybe scheduling had something to do with it?)

Anyway, if Sarah has shifted her opinion, then I love her that much more. Her comment about JM "showing up" (what, is there a rift between her and DB? Heaven forbid I indulge in gossip) is spot-on with how I read Spike's role in Buffy's life. He's the one who is there for her while Angel flits in and out as he pleases; he's really Buffy's only true "partner" on the show. I don't mean "true love"(loves more) but simply the one who is there for her and she can be there for in a genuine working relationship.

Ok I have to stop. And I said I wasn't a Spuffy shipper *snorts*

Everything the_royal_anna wrote is brilliant. I know whole swathes of her essays off by heart... Me too! I've actually printed some and have reread them several times because there is so much THERE there. (I don't think I've even read them all.) Has she written anything on Buffy since 2004, though?

Thank you again for your comment - I love new people entering fandom, it marvellous. ♥ It's an amazing fandom, and I'm glad to find my little corner of it. And, I'm glad now in a way that I wasn't around "back in the day" = it seems much more civilized now, from what I've read.

Edited 2012-08-27 23:01 (UTC)

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The Kiss. (EoD/Chosen)

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