The Doctor's River.

[elisi]

First of all I want to point out that I am profoundly non-shippy when it comes to the Doctor. I’ve liked all his companions and enjoyed all the different relationships. This is just me delving into the meta side of things.

So - future companion River Song. I’ve only read a few other (reaction) posts, so I’m sorry if others have said this better already. Anyway I’ve been thinking, and I think that the most important thing about the Doctor/River relationship - what it all hinges on - is the fact that he knows how it ends. I know this seems obvious, and heartbreaking, but that’s not the point I’m trying to make.

A lot of people were put off by how very intimate and close the two of them seemed to be/become (old married couple?), but I think this is because he already knows how their adventures end - he knows that she is safe, that she won’t ever leave him (for good), or betray him, or want a normal life. Neither will he have to see her age and die, like he was probably dreading with Rose. He can literally trust her more completely than anyone else.

Which brings me to the whole ‘happily ever after’. Although first I must mention how much I loved the set up when they talked about Biographies in the start of the ep, and how people die at the end - brought full circle with the placement of River’s Diary amongst the other books. Except he can’t leave it there...

I have tedmaul to thank for this:

I suppose it depends on how you view these things, but it seems to me there's a slightly bitter aftertaste to the fact that the Doctor can't just let her go ... he can't let himself lose, so he sends her off to join her virtual friends in a virtual world forever. On one level, there's a sweet 'happy ever after' feel to it, but behind it there's a rather queasy sensation of a serious god complex at work...

Because it suddenly occurred to me that River’s ending is the *opposite* to the Family of Blood - one imprisoned, all of them lonely forever in a living hell, the other in the closest thing to heaven we have seen... but both groups held back from real death by the Doctor, unable to let go. And it reminds me of this...

COPPER: Of all the people to survive, he’s not the one you would have chosen, is he? But if you could choose, Doctor, if you decide who lives and who dies… that would make you a monster.
‘Voyage of the Damned’

But now I’m again getting into territory that I wrote about post S3 (essay here), since of course the Master showed us exactly what happens when a Timelord decides to play god for real. And the Doctor hovers on the line... how do you decide what is right, morally, when you are the highest authority there is? (This incidentally reminds me of the Doctor’s atheism - I think it is partly due to fear. Because if there really is someone up there, how will he judge the Doctor’s actions? He has the blood of his own people on his hands - as well as who knows how many others...)

Anyway, I think I started off talking about River. I really hope we get to see some of it play out on screen, because it’ll be a very interesting dynamic I think. I’m impressed that they still manage to find new ways of doing things. (Not maybe new in sci-fi terms, but new when it comes to companions.)

And that’s all for now, I really shouldn't be here...

Comments

[chloris67.livejournal.com]

The problem with knowing how it ends and knowing that he does show up on her doorstep and eventually tell her his name, is does he do it just because he knows he will (don't want to screw up the timeline) or because that what he wants to do.

As far as I'm concerned, the happily ever after isn't. He gets to save her but not really, and echo to Astrid. Only this time some level of consciousness survives.

It's interesting that you bring up Family of Blood because I thought that the ending had the same fairy tale feeling.

[elisi]

does he do it just because he knows he will (don't want to screw up the timeline) or because that what he wants to do.
Mostly the latter I think - although it has to be bitter going into it knowing that he'll lose her. On the other hand, as I said, he also knows that she is *safe*, so probably relies on her more than he otherwise would - which probably makes her feel more special than she is (does that make sense?).

He gets to save her but not really, and echo to Astrid. Only this time some level of consciousness survives.
Oh that's a good parallel - he can't bear to lose people, and saves them when they should have been left alone. (And boy, did Jack pick up on that trait!)

It's interesting that you bring up Family of Blood because I thought that the ending had the same fairy tale feeling.
Actually, there are parallels between Martha in those eps and River in these - knowing things about him that he doesn't. Tenuous link though...

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

the most important thing about the Doctor/River relationship - what it all hinges on - is the fact that he knows how it ends. I know this seems obvious, and heartbreaking, but that’s not the point I’m trying to make.

A lot of people were put off by how very intimate and close the two of them seemed to be/become (old married couple?), but I think this is because he already knows how their adventures end - he knows that she is safe, that she won’t ever leave him (for good), or betray him, or want a normal life. Neither will he have to see her age and die, like he was probably dreading with Rose. He can literally trust her more completely than anyone else.

I am confused. I can see that when he next meets River he will already know how she ends and therefore maybe be happy to let her come a little closer than he would most companions (although there isn't that much difference - he knows he is going to lose her eventually, he just happens to know exactly how, but it will still leave him alone afterwards). But when he met River in the library he had no idea what her ending would be until it happened, so how does that explain anything?

[elisi]

But when he met River in the library he had no idea what her ending would be until it happened, so how does that explain anything?
This is where the biting-itself-in-the-tail part comes into play, because she already has a relationship so close to him that she signs her messages with a kiss and calls him 'Sweetheart' - and she has that closeness because her Doctor knows how it ends. She therefore project the closeness onto the current Doctor, who gets incredibly confused right until the end.

I'm sorry if I'm terrible at explaining it, it all makes sense in my head.

[frenchani.livejournal.com]

If you listen, you can hear it call
Wailaree ! Wailaree !
There is a river
Called the River of No Return
Sometimes it's peaceful
And sometimes wild and free
Love is a traveler
On the River of No Return
Swept on forever to be lost
In the stormy sea
Wailaree !
I can hear the river call
No return, no return
(Wailaree !)
I can hear my lover call
"Come to me"
No return, no return
I lost my love on the river
And forever my heart will yearn
Gone, gone forever
Down the River of No Return
Wailaree ! Wailaree ! Wailaree !
You never return to me
No return, no return ...

[elisi]

Thank you, that's beautiful.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I liked the Doctor/River thing a lot. I loved how confused he was about it. He couldn't believe that he would ever let someone come that close to him.

I think, knowing how it ends, might even make him try to keep more distance from her, when he actually travels with her, but somehow that obviously didn't work out. And I would very much like to see how that happened one season.

[elisi]

I liked the Doctor/River thing a lot. I loved how confused he was about it.
So very sceptical also. I noticed that he sent Donna to safety first.

I think, knowing how it ends, might even make him try to keep more distance from her, when he actually travels with her
Yes, that's true. Although I could see him doing the opposite and just for once let it all out. Not because he loves her more than f.ex. Rose, but because he knows River can take it/isn't so worried about hurting her.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Although I could see him doing the opposite and just for once let it all out. Not because he loves her more than f.ex. Rose, but because he knows River can take it/isn't so worried about hurting her.

That's true. And it'll also depend on how the whole thing starts for her. How does she come to fall in love with him and so on.

[elisi]

Exactly. I'm beginning to hope that one (or more?) of the specials will feature River as companion. The year after we could have Jenny! :)

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

hehe, all the possibilities.

I wonder what they'll make of Jenny on Sarah Jane, I read she's going to be there next season.

[elisi]

Don't tell me I have to start watching Sarah Jane! I just don't have the time.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

he, if you don't mind that it's mainly for kids, it's really worth it. It got better with every episode in the first season.

[elisi]

I know a lot of people like it... *sigh* Maybe.

ETA: Sorry if I'm sounding awfully negative, but it's been a LONG HOT day and my favourite thing about DW/TW is the darkness.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

No worries. Everybody likes different stuff :)
But it gets not so undark in the later episodes.

[elisi]

I sort-of intended to watch it - or at least to get the children to watch - but I kept forgetting when it was on. Will try to check it out if it's repeated.

[torn-eledhwen.livejournal.com]

Here via the professor_song link.

Interesting parallel to "The Family of Blood" - hadn't considered that but I think you've got a good point. The Doctor plays god far more than he'd admit to himself, I think.

[elisi]

Welcome. :)

The Doctor plays god far more than he'd admit to himself, I think.
Actually I'm reminded of something DT said in the Confidential for 'The Doctor's Daughter':

"The Doctor has his own drawer full of double standards when it comes to behaving like a soldier. It's something he's clearly done, and done on an epic scale."

I think you can easily substitute 'god' for 'soldier'...

[torn-eledhwen.livejournal.com]

Mmm, yes; I think the Doctor's soldiering is more than just being a footsoldier. He's more the guy who dropped the bomb.

[elisi]

He's more the guy who dropped the bomb.
Oh yes. To quote this excellent post:

There was a line in the BBC7 audio "Phobos" where he kills an empathatic species with an overload of his memories and thoughts. What finally kills isn't what he's done, or what he's afraid of, it's what he's capable of doing. I think a full-out Time Lord meltdown would bring down galaxies and that's always lurking just below the surface with this Doctor.

(I so need more Doctor icons...)

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

Gah! I havn'e had a chance to d/l (my folks have whimpy DSL, and it takes forever. But I keep hearing all about this fascinating new wank!

Must. Stay. Away...

[elisi]

It isn't wank as such... Just interesting. OK, I'm sure that somewhere there's wank, but not here! *g*

(PS I posted more fic the other day if you need a distraction?)