elisi | Why the soulquest *couldn't* have been a ret-con.

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buffy has taken over my brain

Why the soulquest couldn't have been a ret-con.

Look! A fandom post! I've been meaning to write this down for ages, and suddenly remembered today. And then thought - why not? It is after all why I'm here.

Also, if I remember correctly, I have

stormwreath to thank for this flawless proof.

So, let's look at some dates. 'Seeing Red' aired on 7th of May 2002 and tried to make us think Spike blamed the chip for everything:

SPIKE: It's the chip! Steel and wires and silicon. It won't let me be a monster. And I can't be a man. I'm nothing.

'Villains' aired on the 14th of May and it was this episode that more than any other tried to make people believe that Spike wanted the chip out:

SPIKE: Thinks she's better than me. Ever since I got this bleeding chip in my head, things ain't been right. Everything's gone to hell.
DEMON: And you want to return to your former self.
SPIKE: Yeah.

So, did they change the outcome at the last minute? Or is it just that the execution of their mislead was rather clumsy? Well, lets look at the script for 'Grave', dated 27th March 2002 - that is MORE THAN A MONTH before SR aired:

SPIKE (cont'd)
So, give me what I want. Make me
what I was... so Buffy can get what
she deserves.

VOICE
Very well.

A GNARLY DEMON HAND reaches out to Spike's bare chest

VOICE (cont'd)
Your soul is returned to you.

As the hand touches him, Spike throws his head back and SCREAMS in agony...

QED (Unless of course Joss can travel in time...)

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

I never realized this was such a controversy. To me, it was always a pretty obvious misdirect right from the start (for starters, why would Spike go to Africa - better yet, an obviously pretty rural part of it - to get a top-secret hi-tech US-made chip removed from his head? Spike is impulsive, but not stupid.)

But still, I'm not sure your logic quite works: surely what counts isn't the air date but the filming date? If Seeing Red was *filmed* before 27th March, then theoretically, it could be a retcon, couldn't it?

I never realized this was such a controversy.
Neither did I until I found fandom (post-Chosen, thankfully). But trust me, there are people out there who'll swear blind that the whole thing was a ret-con, that Spike was EVIL, wanted to the chip out so he could kill Buffy (although - hey! He could do that anyway) and everyone just lied about it. *shakes head*

If Seeing Red was *filmed* before 27th March, then theoretically, it could be a retcon, couldn't it?
*wraps mind around the concept* (Sorry, I've got a cold, my head ain't working right.) But... I guess you could say that - technically - although that would change the reason for the ret-con from 'trying to placate fans' to... Um not sure.

Oh wait, let me check when SR was written... Feb. 21. Which doesn't really help.

Well, the dates aren't really solid because the scripts are written after the story is broken down by the group.

But yeah, your basic argument is sound. Buffy filmed more than one episode at a time and that part of Grave would have most likely been in the can by the time Seeing Red even aired, much less Villains.

Haters need to let it go 'cause, you know, even it was *was* retcon (which it wasn't), it's still canon.

Buffy filmed more than one episode at a time
My guess would be that they filmed all of Spike's Africa scenes at the same time (since he had to go away for another job). So filming-wise there's probably just days between 'Villains' and 'Grave'.

it's still canon
Exactly. (Unlike, say... S8! Heh.)

My guess would be that they filmed all of Spike's Africa scenes

Yep. That and the entire sequence with the battles and all isn't really *that* long, so to wrap up the set, then come back to it just isn't efficient filmmaking. It's similar with the scenes at Revello (filmed in Torrance), they were usually done in chunks rather dumbly hauling the production back and forth.

S8 and this are apples and oranges. ;) If they were 4 years earlier and we didn't have both Joss and Marti lamenting how exhausted and out of ideas they were, I might include it. Also if they were on TV (I mean they could've recast the characters since apparently having the artwork look like the actors isn't important). :P

But... I guess you could say that - technically - although that would change the reason for the ret-con from 'trying to placate fans' to... Um not sure.

I suppose it all comes down to exactly what one considers a retcon. It's all very zen tree-falling-in-the-woods; can canon be retconned before there is a broadcast canon to retcon? At what point does canon become canon - when it's thought up by Joss, when it's written, when it's shot, or when it's seen by fans? Etc. It's quantum canon theory! :-)

Personally, I think the more interesting "retcon" of this is the one which the eternal romantic Spike (canonically) does himself:

SPIKE: I fought for my soul. Went through the demon trials. Almost did me in a dozen times over, but I kept fighting. 'Cause I knew it was the right thing to do. It's my destiny.
ANGEL: Really? Heard it was just to get into a girl's pants.

Which, to me, puts a pretty good spotlight on why so many of these retcon debates miss the point: Jossverse characters lie, repress, rationalize and are not always to be trusted - especially those (Spike, Willow, Wesley and Connor for instance) who have a tendency to believe their own spin. Spike fancies himself a poet; if you take everything he says as canonical literal truth, you're bound to think you're looking at contradictions and retcons where there is actually character development.

/Off topic for this particular piece, I guess.

Please excuse these blonde moments.

What is ret-con?
What is QED?
And, while I've got you here, what is META?

Your icon is so *cute*! Is it your boys?

Retroactive continuity or retcon is the adding of new information to "historical" material, or deliberately changing previously established facts in a work of serial fiction.
(Like say Spike saying that Angel is his Sire in 'School Hard' and then showing that it was Dru in FFL.)

Q.E.D. is an abbreviation of the Latin phrase "quod erat demonstrandum" (literally, "which was to be demonstrated"). In simple terms, the use of this Latin phrase is to indicate that something has been definitively proven.

(Thank you wikipedia! *smooches*)

And meta... is essays and stuff. Talking *about* something, analysing it etc.

Oh and I went and set up another journal with the name I always wanted...

147days! :)

Also it's great to see you! ::hugs::

Yes, it's of the boys. Here is a bigger picture. :) I love it.

Thanks for all the info! I was in the dark. :)

I friended

147days. Holy cow. Can't believe you got that one.

But still, I'm not sure your logic quite works: surely what counts isn't the air date but the filming date?

It's about the context... which in this case, was some ~~idiots~~posters on atbvs claiming that 'Seeing Red', 'Villains' and 'Two To Go' were all filmed on the understanding that Spike really did want to get the chip out. However - according to these ~~dingbats~~people - Joss was so horrified by the negative reaction from Spike fans that he did a last-minute re-write of the last scene of 'Grave', to make it that Spike wanted his soul all along.

The fact that 'Grave' had already been written before the preceding episodes even aired kind of destroys that theory, doesn't it?

I love it.
It truly is adorableness itself! I know they're beyond hard work, but wow. *squishes boys*

Thanks for all the info! I was in the dark. :)
My pleasure. I still remember tentatively asking what OTP stood for... people use these phrases every day and sometimes it's like another language. (Still not sure what exactly RPG stands for...)

And you friended me! Aw thanks! I have no idea what to do with it now though. Might put original fiction in it... Hm.

Holy cow. Can't believe you got that one.
Hee! That's what I've been thinking. Or rather I thought of it like 2 1/2 years ago, and *still* no one has taken it! *is pleased*

The fact that 'Grave' had already been written before the preceding episodes even aired kind of destroys that theory, doesn't it?

Utterly and completely. Then again, it sounds like a pretty stupid theory to start with.

It true! Joss caved to pressure! Spike is ev0l!!11!!!

Thank you for explaining the background (and for the proof itself)! :)

Well these guys don't claim to have God talking to them, but...

That and the entire sequence with the battles and all isn't really *that* long, so to wrap up the set, then come back to it just isn't efficient filmmaking.
Especially since they did it becaue JM was going off to film something else...

If they were 4 years earlier and we didn't have both Joss and Marti lamenting how exhausted and out of ideas they were, I might include it.
It's like you read my mind... (And incidentally this is why I'm much more excited about AtS S6 - they were planning it out and then couldn't do it!

I mean they could've recast the characters since apparently having the artwork look like the actors isn't important
Ouch! But I'm right there with you! (My davice - buy Spike:Asylum. I'll write up a proper review of some sort after issue 4 comes out, since I don't feel like tearing S8 to pieces before I discover to what degree it deserves it.)

Oh and I should be posting schmoopy Spuffy soon (either tomorrow or Monday) which I think you should enjoy! :)

Joss caved to pressure! Spike is ev0l!!11!!!

RPG = role playing game.
(Or rocket propelled grenade. You have to look at the context. :) )

What? You don't believe that the evil Spuffy fans completely ruined BtVS by forcing Joss to give in to their whims and allowing Spike to get a soul, thus proving that it doesn't matter if you're an evil mass-murdering rapist, you can still get your girlfriend to forgive you and accept you back?

Bwaa-haa-ha!! I think I just may love you :D

Of course not. We all know it was the homosexual mafia who ruined BtVS by forcing Joss to make Willow catch teh gay.

Hee-- I feel all nostalgic just thinking about it! I remember well the great "Was Spike fooled" debate of '02!

For the record, ME fooled me at the time. I honestly thought he was going to get his chip out, and the glow-y demon pulled a fast one; I remember debating it all summer. (I actually sort of thought he might come back human-- what was I thinking!) It was pretty clear from season 7 though that he'd gone after soul; but I can see how the argument came about. I didn't realize it was still an on-going point of contention though!

Bwah! Actually that thing might explain S8... except it'd have to have a different name. (This is my Spike the Cat btw!)

Thank you! I figured it was something along those lines, but didn't know what exactly. (And it says something about the cirlces in which I travel that I *do* know what RPS stands for...)

For the record, ME fooled me at the time.
It's odd, because I have NO recollection of what I thought. This is, partly, because when stuff like that unfolds I automatically try not to second guess anything. The other part is that the moment when he *did* get his soul pretty much obliterated anything else... whatever I thought, it in no way prepared me for what I got. I don't think anything has ever affected me as much as that. It's what turned me from an avid watcher to an obsessive.

It's quantum canon theory! :-)
Or: How To Make Yourself Go Insane In 3 Easy Steps! *g*

Jossverse characters lie, repress, rationalize and are not always to be trusted
Spike can't even remember his own age! ;)

if you take everything he says as canonical literal truth, you're bound to think you're looking at contradictions and retcons where there is actually character development.
An excellent point. And going off topic is always fun!

I don't get what this proves. I've always been more than happy to take Joss at his word that Spike went to Africa with the objective of winning back his soul, because that's what I want to believe - it's what feels right to me. But to this day, even knowing Joss' unequivocal pronouncements on the matter, I can detect nary a hint of that possibility in the lead-up to the big reveal. Or no - I tell a lie; there was one big, honkin' hint at the time: the ambiguous dialog that signaled a JW mind-f**k was coming. I never will understand why Joss thought it was a good idea to keep JM in the dark about what Spike wanted. Apparently he thought the soul reward would have a greater impact if people thought Spike wanted to get the chip out so he could what - hurt the Scoobies - 'cos he could hurt Buffy already - go back to his former evil ways? Whatever. All it accomplished was a lead-up portrayal of Spike that IMO, can't be reconciled with his subsequently revealed intentions. It doesn't play.

So, proving that Joss always intended Spike to get his soul back doesn't prove that getting his soul back was what Spike had intended.

Or, am I missing something. I haven't read any of the Comments to your post and I'm probably missing something which makes my post moot. But whatthehell, I'll post it anyway.

Oh and I should be posting schmoopy Spuffy soon (either tomorrow or Monday) which I think you should enjoy! :)

Yay!

hahaha...that's awesome

So, proving that Joss always intended Spike to get his soul back doesn't prove that getting his soul back was what Spike had intended.

But Spike says he went to get his soul in S7...Spike the character can't change his intentions, right? So unless Spike's supposed to be a big fat liar throughout S7, you have to assume that the soul is what he wanted all along. This is confusing, lol

Your icon is me. Perpetually bewildered & confused me.

But Spike says he went to get his soul in S7...

Sure he did. And therein lies the possible retcon.

Spike the character can't change his intentions, right? So unless Spike's supposed to be a big fat liar throughout S7, you have to assume that the soul is what he wanted all along.

Clearly, that's what we were meant to think (and I went along willingly). I believe that the purpose of Spike's repeated assertions in S7, not to mention throughout AtS S5 - was to make that point very clear, and to settle the issue once and for all (not that it ever did). Because the S6 mis-direct was so successful that thousands believed (and many never will be convinced otherwise) that Spike's carelessly imprecise language gave Lurky the scope to restore his soul when that wasn't what Spike had in mind at all (at least not consciously).

You're right, in that unless we decide Spike lied about it, there can be no question that he'd gone after his soul. But that doesn't mean that that Joss couldn't have retconned Spike's intentions after fan reaction to the re-souling, or to the way it was played out on the show. Since S6 ended without ever spelling out in so many words what his specific intentions had been, but showed Spike apparently taken by surprise, there's nothing to say that Joss intended to go another way but later changed his mind. Personally, I have no problem believing Joss and believing Spike about the soul being Spike's goal all along. But the way Joss left it at the end of S6, it could have gone either way.

The other part is that the moment when he *did* get his soul pretty much obliterated anything else... whatever I thought, it in no way prepared me for what I got. I don't think anything has ever affected me as much as that. It's what turned me from an avid watcher to an obsessive.

Hee-- I know what you mean. Prior to the soul I was a big Buffy fan, and occasionally checked the usual sites for spoilers. Then that moment came. I very clearly remember standing up and yelling "what??" at the TV. My roommate at the time thought I'd lost it! It was all downhill from there :D

I haven't read any of the Comments to your post and I'm probably missing something which makes my post moot.

stormwreath spells it out here. That said I get your point, but the emphasis is different. Yes the misdirect was stupid and clumsy, but as for Spike's anger then I think there's a lot of FFL in it - "You're beneath me!". He's *always* been beneath her, and with the AR he finally proves it for good. So I think that a lot of his motivation comes from "I'll show her!" He'll be good enough for once, even if the route is desperate.

Actually, just another point...

Sure he did. And therein lies the possible retcon.
The thing is, they worked it all out backwards. JM had a filmrole coming up and said he'd not be around much towards the end of the season. So they thought - maybe we could send Spike off somewhere? Oh - maybe he could go get a soul? But why? What could motivate him to do that? And so the AR was born...

(Also if he'd wanted the chip out he could just have gone to W&H. He knew they were there and what they were capable of!)

*is in a hurry*

See my responses to

deborahc! :)

Then that moment came.
Exactly. I wasn't even taping the show at that point (except for OMWF). But then everything changed...

Since S6 ended without ever spelling out in so many words what his specific intentions had been, but showed Spike apparently taken by surprise, there's nothing to say that Joss intended to go another way but later changed his mind.

I've actually written some meta about Spike's soulquest, the misdirect and his true motivations here, if you're interested?

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

Why the soulquest couldn't have been a ret-con.

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