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What price your soul...
A good while ago (back in Novemeber) there was the rape-icon kerfuffle. ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
spikeylover made a post about it and in one of the threads shipperx made one of the best explanations for why Spike needed the soul that I have ever seen. Since spikeylover was so kind as to find it for me, I will copy it out here for future reference.
All credit and much love toshipperx:
See, I think there are fundamental differences in interpretation because I think the point of the Crypt scene in Seeing Red is to show that Spike really never comprehended the difference in a real way. That's the point of being soulless. It's not that they cannot intellectualize the difference between right and wrong, it's that they cannot FEEL it. The significance of the crypt scene, and what spurred him on to Africa, is because for one moment he glimpsed what he didn't understand (it's the old you don't know what you don't know... until of course, you're faced with your ignorance). Spike THOUGHT he was as good as souled, but he was confronted with the dichotomy of the AR. It violated the promise that he had intended to keep, that he meant to keep, and that meant something to him... and he didn't even feel the point where he crossed the line. When he, in shock, was forced back to look and to realize, he finally "got" that he was missing something, that something was wrong. And it was wrong because he's in such confusion. A vampire SHOULDN'T care. A vampire DOESN'T care, and yet this wasn't something he had intended. He loved her. He really truly loved her and he would never have intended that, but there it was. And he wanted to change that, to fix it.
The point, to me, was that he finally "got" that without the soul he was missing an internal boundary so in a very visceral way (instead of an intellectual one) he didn't "get" the difference between right and wrong. He might well be able to read the labels between "this is right" and "this is wrong" but he couldn't FEEL it and know it on a gut level until he had the epiphany... and that was in the wake of "the incident."
spikeylover made a post about it and in one of the threads shipperx made one of the best explanations for why Spike needed the soul that I have ever seen. Since spikeylover was so kind as to find it for me, I will copy it out here for future reference. All credit and much love to
shipperx:See, I think there are fundamental differences in interpretation because I think the point of the Crypt scene in Seeing Red is to show that Spike really never comprehended the difference in a real way. That's the point of being soulless. It's not that they cannot intellectualize the difference between right and wrong, it's that they cannot FEEL it. The significance of the crypt scene, and what spurred him on to Africa, is because for one moment he glimpsed what he didn't understand (it's the old you don't know what you don't know... until of course, you're faced with your ignorance). Spike THOUGHT he was as good as souled, but he was confronted with the dichotomy of the AR. It violated the promise that he had intended to keep, that he meant to keep, and that meant something to him... and he didn't even feel the point where he crossed the line. When he, in shock, was forced back to look and to realize, he finally "got" that he was missing something, that something was wrong. And it was wrong because he's in such confusion. A vampire SHOULDN'T care. A vampire DOESN'T care, and yet this wasn't something he had intended. He loved her. He really truly loved her and he would never have intended that, but there it was. And he wanted to change that, to fix it.
The point, to me, was that he finally "got" that without the soul he was missing an internal boundary so in a very visceral way (instead of an intellectual one) he didn't "get" the difference between right and wrong. He might well be able to read the labels between "this is right" and "this is wrong" but he couldn't FEEL it and know it on a gut level until he had the epiphany... and that was in the wake of "the incident."
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Thanks for remninding me about it.
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Some people have a wonderful way with words.
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So true.
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Here are some links to my favorite SR discussions:
http://superplin.livejournal.com/43274.html
http://the-royal-anna.livejournal.com/7737.html
http://onetwomany.livejournal.com/99383.html
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Still a really painful episode to watch, though!
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I always loved the soul. BtVS was must-see TV since FFL, but it was the very end of Grave that threw me into obsession. I can't remember ever looking forward to anything more! (Except possdibly AtS S5, but that was different!)
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Me too!
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It was beautifully worded.
It's not that they can't intellectualize the difference between right and wrong, it's that they cannot FEEL it.
If we regard the soul as a principle separated from the body , the sensitiveness, I get that Spike didn't FEEL it until he had the epiphany.
..for one moment he glimpsed what he didn't understand Oh this was perfectly put. I always understood Spike's speech back to the crypt as the realization that he FELT that he did something unforgivable ( he KNEW it as soon as Buffy pushed him away from her in the bathroom) to the woman he loved , to the one he was sure to never hurt.
His words I can' t be a man were , for me , a confession : I lack something essential to feel like a man. His soul.
I personally never thought that he was thinking of getting rid of the ship. His tortured demeanor didn't fit with this.
Things were deliberately left uncertain by J.Whedon , making fans speculate wildly but it didn't work with Spike's state of painful confusion.
I believe he went to seek his soul for himself as much as for Buffy.
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..for one moment he glimpsed what he didn't understand
That's my favourite part too. And I love that you brought up the 'I can't be a man', because it so perfectly illustrates it.
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::nods::
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However, Spike-with-a-soul might have never done the AR, but lots of people with souls do end up in abusive relationships where the line between "no" and no meaning no gets very obscured.. And where they are pushed over the edge into sexual violence. I think this interaction between the two of them is very human. Fucked up, but human. I didn't see this as a time where he was evil anymore than I thought Buffy was evil when she pounded the shit out of him in "Dead Things." I mean, it was sick, and wrong, and incredibly unhealthy, but not evil (according to the definition that I think the show creates, at least). I think about how Angelus might have behaved in a similar situation with Buffy - that's evil, in the sense of the show. In the sense of needing a soul to stop being evil. I mean, at the same time, I'm not sure why Spike is so different from Angelus. Should they be held to similar standards of evil versus non-evil?
See, I feel like I shouldn't even be writing all of this down because I don't have a really solid thesis statement here. Sorry for the ramble! But you do set out a really great point. I'm just not sure I agree that a soul makes the difference between seeing and not seeing that "line" when two people are already involved in an unhealthy relationship that has included quite a bit of violence in the past.
Does that make any sense?
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And yes, there are lots of people who do terrible things - just look at Warren! If you want the mother of all essays on this, I have written one:
Souls and redemption in the Buffy verse.
(I used to call myself The Queen of Meta, but it sounded a little pompous, so I just go with Mrs Darcy these days.)