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Good Omens Meta: Trust Me: Aziraphale in the Final Fifteen
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maia. It doesn't really deserve the meta café tag, because it's literally just thoughts that have been knocking around in my head for months and that I never got round to writing down. And I'm still not sure that I'm contributing anything of note. But hey ho, here you go. This is not well-written, but at least it exists:
Trust Me: Aziraphale in the Final Fifteen
This is a weird one, because I guess that it should be labelled as a ‘theory’ whereas I feel like I am simply just trying to chronicle what we saw on screen…
ETA: Belatedly I realised that I should have specified that this is specifically about the stuff below the surface. Take the miscommunication, all the trauma etc as given.
Sidebar: I’m not keen on any of the theories. No I don’t think there was a body swap (way to utterly destroy any emotional impact — and if I know anything about storytelling, I know you should always follow the emotions); no I don’t think Aziraphale was drugged (this one’s just weird); and no I don’t think he lied either. Although the Lie Theory is probably the closest to my own take because it deals with the same points that bother me. My main issue with it is where is the lie? We see the Metatron’s offer and Aziraphale repeats it verbatim — for there to be a lie, lies have to be told. And again, the emotions don’t track. If Aziraphale wants to push Crowley away why is he so devastated when it works?
Anyway, let’s get back on track. So — Aziraphale is whisked off by the Metatron for his talk and gets offered a) The Supreme Archangel Job and b) the opportunity to re-instate Crowley to angelic status.
We know that he is not interested in the former, and we only see the offers in restricted flashbacks. Much has been made of ‘Coffee or Death’ so I ask: We see the carrot. Where is the stick?
It has been pointed out that Aziraphale seems very hesitant and uncertain as he leaves the Metatron, only to be bursting with excitement once he starts talking to Crowley. And this is indeed weird. I’m not quite sure how to organise my thoughts, so I’ll just go with bullet points.
- What else did the Metatron say? I don’t think there will have been any overt threats, he works with flattery and manipulation and unspoken intimidation. However I can easily imagine that after the offer to resort Crowley he could have added: “Of course, you saw how very disruptive the whole issue with Gabriel and Beelzebub has been, we quite simply can’t let these sorts of associations continue.” Remember that Aziraphale thinks that Gabriel was thrown out and mind wiped because of his relationship with Beelzebub. He and Crowley have been living on borrowed time for six thousand years, and it’s very clear that now the time is up.
So Aziraphale (imho) returns to the bookshop and his meeting with Crowley with a single thought: It’s this or nothing. He has to somehow sell a bad offer because the alternative is worse. Knowing Crowley like he does, of course he knows how unpalatable this will be to him, but again: I don’t think there is an alternative where they walk away together.
- Aziraphale’s enthusiasm, which seems out of proportion to his earlier apprehension. I see this threefold:
1) He is doing his damnedest to sell a bad offer, hyping it up for all he’s worth.
2) He is doing something my mother always does (my mother is very Aziraphale-like in many ways): Once she has made a decision, she will then go on to reinforce said decision by listing as many reasons she can think of why it was the correct choice. Which leads me to:
3) He is trying to convince himself also: Yes, this is the right choice. Yes, the Metatron is being helpful and kind, despite how weird it feels. Yes this is a wonderful opportunity! I can do good, Heaven is the place of goodness and truth after all. (Or rather: I can make it so! Make it what it should be, what it was always supposed to be.) Crowley will be safe! We can finally be together, without constantly worrying! Yes, this solves all the problems, it’s the best possible thing, everything will work out great!
There is also the fact (like many people who have come from abusive religious backgrounds have pointed out) that the offer aligns everything he wants and everything he has been taught: Validation in the most overt way from the closest thing to God Herself that he was right and Heaven was wrong; his wish for Crowley to be safe; his idea that Heaven is good, it’s just lost its way a little. It works with all his issues, hitting allllll of his weakest spots in one. (It also hits Crowley’s strongest spot, the one issue where he will never budge — “I will do anything for love, but I won’t do that.”)
And again — does Aziraphale even have a choice? There doesn’t need to be a hidden stick (it works fine on its own), but there is enough there to make me suspect something more.
- So, to ‘Trust me’. Now Sendarya did a video analysis a few weeks ago (Good Omens || Trust Me || Scene Analysis and Theory) and I got terribly excited because I thought ‘omg maybe they can see what I can see, I won’t need to write this meta after all, hurrah!’. Except they took a different tack. I don’t disagree with their take at all, but it’s not the same as mine. So here I go.
I think there are parallels to be drawn between the Bullet Catch Trick and the Final Fifteen. In both, something has to be pulled off in public and thus things have to be communicated without ‘the audience’ realising. It’s not about magic, it’s about trust.
The very first thing Aziraphale does after Crowley starts his pitch is to look outside, and then stop him and launch into his own spiel. I think that below all he enthusiasm he is saying:
“Trust me trust me trust me, this will work, this is the solution, let me protect you! Yes, it's not ideal, just like it's not ideal when we were doing a deadly magic trick and had no miracles, but we can do this! I can’t explain, there is no time, we are being watched, but THERE ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS, JUST PLEASE TRUST ME!”
Looking back at their conversation in 1941 we have this bit of conversation:
Aziraphale: “I… knew you’d come through for me. You always do.”
Crowley: “You said trust me.”
Aziraphale: “And you did. (Pause) You could have walked away.”
And indeed, here Crowley does. (Someone even made a heartbreaking gif set to illustrate the parallels.)
I was also struck by "I don't think you understand what I am offering you!" / "I think I understand a lot better than you."
We automatically take Crowley's side, but what if it isn't that simple? What if he doesn't understand because Aziraphale hasn't explained it all? (/might not be at liberty to explain it all).
After the rejection Aziraphale is angry and hurt and lashing out (imho), partly because this was their ONE chance to be free and be together; in as far as freedom is possible.
There is also the sheer desperation of “I need you!” — those words were wrenched from his very soul, not a playact for the unseen audience.
~
I think, whatever you think of the ending, the main takeaway is: They would not be allowed to continue as they were. The point was either to control them both, or to split them up.
People chide Aziraphale for his choice, but what alternative is Crowley offering? The same as before: Running away. Which is of course his trauma response, but also it doesn’t solve anything: Heaven & Hell will still destroy Earth.
There is very much a sense of ‘Do you have a single better idea?’ to Aziraphale at the end. The thing is, that Aziraphale doesn’t have a better idea either. He is unable to say ‘No’ to the Metatron. And ALSO unable to say ‘Yes’ to Crowley. And Crowley can’t say ‘Yes’ to Aziraphale’s offer.
There is no way this could end well — armageddon is still there, and they can’t avoid it. It simply has to be dealt with before they can have their happy ending.
I have no clever ending, no particular final point. Although if I had to sum this up, I think I’d say that I agree that The Final Fifteen quite probably has an extra dimension that we don’t know yet. But, I think it’s something that works with the narrative, not against it.
I also want to add my own little meta: The Three Stages of Aziraphale’s Acceptance of the Supreme Archangel Role, which fits in with all of the above, but I didn't fancy writing it all out again. :)
ETA2: Oh and I've just come across this delightful meta: www.tumblr.com/fellthemarvelous/737479202727657472/aziraphales-talk-with-the-metatron, which touches upon a lot of my thoughts.
maia. It doesn't really deserve the meta café tag, because it's literally just thoughts that have been knocking around in my head for months and that I never got round to writing down. And I'm still not sure that I'm contributing anything of note. But hey ho, here you go. This is not well-written, but at least it exists:Trust Me: Aziraphale in the Final Fifteen
This is a weird one, because I guess that it should be labelled as a ‘theory’ whereas I feel like I am simply just trying to chronicle what we saw on screen…
ETA: Belatedly I realised that I should have specified that this is specifically about the stuff below the surface. Take the miscommunication, all the trauma etc as given.
Sidebar: I’m not keen on any of the theories. No I don’t think there was a body swap (way to utterly destroy any emotional impact — and if I know anything about storytelling, I know you should always follow the emotions); no I don’t think Aziraphale was drugged (this one’s just weird); and no I don’t think he lied either. Although the Lie Theory is probably the closest to my own take because it deals with the same points that bother me. My main issue with it is where is the lie? We see the Metatron’s offer and Aziraphale repeats it verbatim — for there to be a lie, lies have to be told. And again, the emotions don’t track. If Aziraphale wants to push Crowley away why is he so devastated when it works?
Anyway, let’s get back on track. So — Aziraphale is whisked off by the Metatron for his talk and gets offered a) The Supreme Archangel Job and b) the opportunity to re-instate Crowley to angelic status.
We know that he is not interested in the former, and we only see the offers in restricted flashbacks. Much has been made of ‘Coffee or Death’ so I ask: We see the carrot. Where is the stick?
It has been pointed out that Aziraphale seems very hesitant and uncertain as he leaves the Metatron, only to be bursting with excitement once he starts talking to Crowley. And this is indeed weird. I’m not quite sure how to organise my thoughts, so I’ll just go with bullet points.
- What else did the Metatron say? I don’t think there will have been any overt threats, he works with flattery and manipulation and unspoken intimidation. However I can easily imagine that after the offer to resort Crowley he could have added: “Of course, you saw how very disruptive the whole issue with Gabriel and Beelzebub has been, we quite simply can’t let these sorts of associations continue.” Remember that Aziraphale thinks that Gabriel was thrown out and mind wiped because of his relationship with Beelzebub. He and Crowley have been living on borrowed time for six thousand years, and it’s very clear that now the time is up.
So Aziraphale (imho) returns to the bookshop and his meeting with Crowley with a single thought: It’s this or nothing. He has to somehow sell a bad offer because the alternative is worse. Knowing Crowley like he does, of course he knows how unpalatable this will be to him, but again: I don’t think there is an alternative where they walk away together.
- Aziraphale’s enthusiasm, which seems out of proportion to his earlier apprehension. I see this threefold:
1) He is doing his damnedest to sell a bad offer, hyping it up for all he’s worth.
2) He is doing something my mother always does (my mother is very Aziraphale-like in many ways): Once she has made a decision, she will then go on to reinforce said decision by listing as many reasons she can think of why it was the correct choice. Which leads me to:
3) He is trying to convince himself also: Yes, this is the right choice. Yes, the Metatron is being helpful and kind, despite how weird it feels. Yes this is a wonderful opportunity! I can do good, Heaven is the place of goodness and truth after all. (Or rather: I can make it so! Make it what it should be, what it was always supposed to be.) Crowley will be safe! We can finally be together, without constantly worrying! Yes, this solves all the problems, it’s the best possible thing, everything will work out great!
There is also the fact (like many people who have come from abusive religious backgrounds have pointed out) that the offer aligns everything he wants and everything he has been taught: Validation in the most overt way from the closest thing to God Herself that he was right and Heaven was wrong; his wish for Crowley to be safe; his idea that Heaven is good, it’s just lost its way a little. It works with all his issues, hitting allllll of his weakest spots in one. (It also hits Crowley’s strongest spot, the one issue where he will never budge — “I will do anything for love, but I won’t do that.”)
And again — does Aziraphale even have a choice? There doesn’t need to be a hidden stick (it works fine on its own), but there is enough there to make me suspect something more.
- So, to ‘Trust me’. Now Sendarya did a video analysis a few weeks ago (Good Omens || Trust Me || Scene Analysis and Theory) and I got terribly excited because I thought ‘omg maybe they can see what I can see, I won’t need to write this meta after all, hurrah!’. Except they took a different tack. I don’t disagree with their take at all, but it’s not the same as mine. So here I go.
I think there are parallels to be drawn between the Bullet Catch Trick and the Final Fifteen. In both, something has to be pulled off in public and thus things have to be communicated without ‘the audience’ realising. It’s not about magic, it’s about trust.
The very first thing Aziraphale does after Crowley starts his pitch is to look outside, and then stop him and launch into his own spiel. I think that below all he enthusiasm he is saying:
“Trust me trust me trust me, this will work, this is the solution, let me protect you! Yes, it's not ideal, just like it's not ideal when we were doing a deadly magic trick and had no miracles, but we can do this! I can’t explain, there is no time, we are being watched, but THERE ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS, JUST PLEASE TRUST ME!”
Looking back at their conversation in 1941 we have this bit of conversation:
Aziraphale: “I… knew you’d come through for me. You always do.”
Crowley: “You said trust me.”
Aziraphale: “And you did. (Pause) You could have walked away.”
And indeed, here Crowley does. (Someone even made a heartbreaking gif set to illustrate the parallels.)
I was also struck by "I don't think you understand what I am offering you!" / "I think I understand a lot better than you."
We automatically take Crowley's side, but what if it isn't that simple? What if he doesn't understand because Aziraphale hasn't explained it all? (/might not be at liberty to explain it all).
After the rejection Aziraphale is angry and hurt and lashing out (imho), partly because this was their ONE chance to be free and be together; in as far as freedom is possible.
There is also the sheer desperation of “I need you!” — those words were wrenched from his very soul, not a playact for the unseen audience.
~
I think, whatever you think of the ending, the main takeaway is: They would not be allowed to continue as they were. The point was either to control them both, or to split them up.
People chide Aziraphale for his choice, but what alternative is Crowley offering? The same as before: Running away. Which is of course his trauma response, but also it doesn’t solve anything: Heaven & Hell will still destroy Earth.
There is very much a sense of ‘Do you have a single better idea?’ to Aziraphale at the end. The thing is, that Aziraphale doesn’t have a better idea either. He is unable to say ‘No’ to the Metatron. And ALSO unable to say ‘Yes’ to Crowley. And Crowley can’t say ‘Yes’ to Aziraphale’s offer.
There is no way this could end well — armageddon is still there, and they can’t avoid it. It simply has to be dealt with before they can have their happy ending.
I have no clever ending, no particular final point. Although if I had to sum this up, I think I’d say that I agree that The Final Fifteen quite probably has an extra dimension that we don’t know yet. But, I think it’s something that works with the narrative, not against it.
I also want to add my own little meta: The Three Stages of Aziraphale’s Acceptance of the Supreme Archangel Role, which fits in with all of the above, but I didn't fancy writing it all out again. :)
ETA2: Oh and I've just come across this delightful meta: www.tumblr.com/fellthemarvelous/737479202727657472/aziraphales-talk-with-the-metatron, which touches upon a lot of my thoughts.
no subject
For me, the communication thing just sticks out because they have had how long now to learn one another? And there is still *something* holding them back. (also how Aziraphale cannot see the complexities of Crowley's relationship with heaven and the fall, when he has seen first-hand so many times how *unjust* god is... and how Crowley tries again and again to find what is as close to justice as possible).
no subject
So this is... on top of the communication. Because obviously they have learned to speak in code - and basically ONLY speak in code - so it's no wonder this goes terribly.
no subject
He and Crowley have been living on borrowed time for six thousand years, and it’s very clear that now the time is up.
Yes.
So Aziraphale (imho) returns to the bookshop and his meeting with Crowley with a single thought: It’s this or nothing. He has to somehow sell a bad offer because the alternative is worse. Knowing Crowley like he does, of course he knows how unpalatable this will be to him, but again: I don’t think there is an alternative where they walk away together.
Yes.
He is trying to convince himself also
Yes. (I think this is key; more on that in a separate comment.)
Validation in the most overt way from the closest thing to God Herself that he was right and Heaven was wrong; his wish for Crowley to be safe; his idea that Heaven is good, it’s just lost its way a little.
Yes.
And again — does Aziraphale even have a choice? There doesn’t need to be a hidden stick (it works fine on its own), but there is enough there to make me suspect something more.
Yes.
(“Nice demon you have there. Would be a real shame if something happened to him...”)
“Trust me trust me trust me, this will work, this is the solution, let me protect you! Yes, it's not ideal, just like it's not ideal when we were doing a deadly magic trick and had no miracles, but we can do this! I can’t explain, there is no time, we are being watched, but THERE ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS, JUST PLEASE TRUST ME!”
Yes.
What if he doesn't understand because Aziraphale hasn't explained it all? (/might not be at liberty to explain it all).
Yes.
There is also the sheer desperation of “I need you!” — those words were wrenched from his very soul, not a playact for the unseen audience.
Yes.
I think, whatever you think of the ending, the main takeaway is: They would not be allowed to continue as they were. The point was either to control them both, or to split them up.
Yes.
People chide Aziraphale for his choice, but what alternative is Crowley offering? The same as before: Running away. Which is of course his trauma response, but also it doesn’t solve anything: Heaven & Hell will still destroy Earth.
Yes.
The thing is, that Aziraphale doesn’t have a better idea either. He is unable to say ‘No’ to the Metatron. And ALSO unable to say ‘Yes’ to Crowley. And Crowley can’t say ‘Yes’ to Aziraphale’s offer.
Yes.
The Final Fifteen quite probably has an extra dimension that we don’t know yet. But, I think it’s something that works with the narrative, not against it.
Yes.
Thank you so, so, so much for writing and posting!! <3
no subject
You're welcome! Thank you for (very very nicely) bullying me into actually getting it down. It's been months... Am glad you like it and look forward to further thoughts. <3
An Aziraphale divided against himself...
If Aziraphale wants to push Crowley away why is he so devastated when it works?
This is the only place where I disagree. I’m certainly not persuaded that Aziraphale is trying to push Crowley away (far from it!) (though I do think it’s possible). But if Aziraphale were trying to push Crowley away, then of course he would be devastated when it works. He doesn’t want to push Crowley away. If that is what he is trying to do, then he’s trying to do it not because he wants it but because he believes it’s the only way to protect Crowley. So of course he would be both trying hard to make it work and utterly devastated when it does work.
The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the reason we all are seeing so many different motivations for Aziraphale in that scene is that Aziraphale is at war with himself, and Mr. Microexpressions Sheen is so superb at conveying that.
Maybe he is genuinely trying to persuade Crowley...but if so, then I think that part of him wants it not to work. Maybe he is trying to push Crowley away to protect him...but if so, then I think that part of him wants it not to work.
Whatever Aziraphale’s conscious intentions are, his unconscious intentions are at odds with it. That’s why screencaps show so many different and contradictory expressions, and we all can seize on one screencap or another and argue that he’s really happy or really terrified or really excited or really trapped or really full of hope or really full of despair...because he is all of the above. His body language and facial expressions and words are all at odds with each other because Aziraphale is at odds with himself.
Aziraphale wants contradictory things. He wants to have an influence in Heaven, he wants to make a difference...and he wants to stay in his bookshop and have extremely alcoholic breakfasts with Crowley. He wants to change everything...and he wants everything to stay the same. He wants to be free of Heaven...and he wants Heaven to be the side of Good. He wants to be with Crowley...and he wants to save Crowley and save the world. He wants to do what he wants, and he wants to do the right thing.
But Aziraphale, more than anything, is a good soldier. He does what he believes he must do. In the Final Fifteen, he’s doing what he believes he must do, and he’s fighting it, desperately. (The way, during the kiss, he keeps moving to fully embrace Crowley and then pulling back, over and over again...it’s heartbreaking.)
Aziraphale wants to persuade himself, and he doesn’t want to persuade himself. He wants to persuade Crowley (and / or he doesn’t want to persuade Crowley), and he doesn't want to persuade Crowley (and / or he does want to persuade Crowley). He’s devastated when it works / he’s devastated when it doesn’t work. He doesn’t want what he’s trying to do, and he’s trying to do what he doesn’t want.
no subject
And indeed, here Crowley does.
Yes. Though in this instance, Crowley needs to walk away...not only for himself, but (I think) for the world.
Whatever Aziraphale is going to do: he needs to do it alone. Whatever Crowley is going to do: he needs to do it alone. They have to separate to be together. They are both wrong and they are both making terrible mistakes, and they are both right and they are both doing what they must do…and their terrible mistakes will be what saves them and saves the world.
In losing each other, they’ll find each other. In hurting each other, they’ll heal each other. In betraying each other, they’ll save each other – and the world.
Re: An Aziraphale divided against himself...
I get what you are saying, but it just doesn't work. He'd be differently devastated. Which is a truly impossible thing to claim, I know, but... "I need you." Nothing about that fits with trying to push Crowley away. (ponders) You know when Spike went off to get his soul, and they wrote it so it'd look like he wanted the chip out? There is nothing here to indicate anything like it. No ambiguity in anything. There is no 'there' there. And yes, I take your point about Mr Micro-expressions and using caps to illustrate anything and everything, but this just kills me. The brief, momentary hope.
Now I very much agree that Aziraphale is wildly conflicted and wants contradictory things. But I just came across this post which says a lot of the things I was trying to lay out in this post:
Aziraphale is terrified. Look at the nervous smile and the way he is so confused as to why Crowley is mad at him. He's trying to tell Crowley he needs helps because he's in trouble.
If he wanted to push him away he could have done ANY number of things. Say: 'I've been recalled to Heaven, can't get out of it, please mind the bookshop'. I mean, yes they're both idiots, and Aziraphale is a terrible liar and has zero time to think about it, but... there were options other than just repeat the offer word for word, whilst going effusive and over the top. Which has been his MO the whole season - when he wanted to borrow the Bentley, when he was organising the ball - he just overdoes it here.
I mean, you can argue that he is being over-the-top to push Crowley away, but I don't see why he would do that? It's his 'persuading Crowley' go-to MO.
*cries* It just makes no sense to me! He is desperate and needs Crowley's help and they are terrible at communicating and it all falls apart. That's what's on screen. Clearly we all watch the same scenes and see different things, but I can't see it.
no subject
Oh yes, there is no way he should have gone to Heaven. (Have you ever read Busman's Honeymoon? There's a perfect example, but it doesn't make sense out of context.)
In losing each other, they’ll find each other. In hurting each other, they’ll heal each other. In betraying each other, they’ll save each other – and the world.
I love how you turn everything to poetry. <3
Re: An Aziraphale divided against himself...
And...while Aziraphale believes he needs Crowley's help...I'm not convinced he actually does? I think he may need to go to Heaven alone. Leaving may be the greatest gift Crowley can give Aziraphale.
Re: An Aziraphale divided against himself...
And I think you are definitely onto something about how conflicted Aziraphale is.
And...while Aziraphale believes he needs Crowley's help...I'm not convinced he actually does? I think he may need to go to Heaven alone. Leaving may be the greatest gift Crowley can give Aziraphale.
Maybe. I think they are stronger together, but they do need to be on the same page.
Re: An Aziraphale divided against himself...
I think it’s a mistake to assume that Aziraphale is behaving coherently and rationally? I wrote (in a conversation with
People are not consistent. People are bundles of contradictions. We want things and then do the opposite of what will get us what we want. We transcend ourselves for brief shining moments and then fall back into our worst patterns of thought and behavior. We see what we want to see and hear what we want to hear and convince ourselves of what we want to believe. We know something is true and behave as if we don't.
I saw a tumblr post asking why, when anyone who has met Crowley would know he would never go back to Heaven, does Aziraphale, who knows him better than anyone, believe he could be persuaded to do so? But that’s how it works: our greatest blind spots are about the people we love the most.
Aziraphale undermines his own intentions because that’s what people do.
I think they are stronger together
Oh, I absolutely agree! But I think they need to be separate for a bit before they can truly be together? There’s something Aziraphale needs to do or learn or see or understand or all of the above that he can only do alone in Heaven, and there is something that Crowley needs to do or learn or see or understand or all of the above that he can only do alone on earth? They need to go through those solitary journeys before they can, as you say, be on the same page – and save the world together.
They both project their issues with God onto each other, and they need to stop projecting and face themselves before they can truly see and understand each other?
I keep thinking of the words in C.S. Lewis’s Till We Have Faces:
When the time comes to you at which you will be forced at last to utter the speech which has lain at the center of your soul for years, which you have, all that time, idiot-like, been saying over and over, you’ll not talk about the joy of words. I saw well why the gods do not speak to us openly, nor let us answer. Till that word can be dug out of us, why should they hear the babble that we think we mean? How can they meet us face to face till we have faces?
I also keep thinking about something I wrote in my own meta:
There’s a horrified recognition on Crowley’s face, and it’s not just because the scene recapitulates the bandstand, and it’s not just because Aziraphale is saying things that Crowley thought Aziraphale no longer believed. There’s something else going on there.
Aziraphale: If I’m in charge, I can make a difference.
Crowley: Oh. Oh, God. Right. Okay.
Crowley recognizes something. (Also, it's the only time either of them mentions God.)
And:
Does Crowley see in Aziraphale the reflection of his own choice? Is he thinking: you’re making
the same mistake I made, I fell in with Lucifer, you’re falling in with the Metatron, I thought I could make a difference, you think you can make a difference, I was wrong then, you’re wrong now?
...
There is something old and wise about Crowley in that scene. And while he is so angry...he seems less angry at Aziraphale and more angry at the situation – as though he doesn’t really blame Aziraphale – as though he’s watching a child make a terrible mistake that he himself made, and he’s powerless to stop it, and it’s devastating, but...he understands.
And:
Is it possible that Crowley is projecting his own fall onto Aziraphale so much that it is blinding him to what is actually happening – and to how trapped and desperate Aziraphale really is?
Aziraphale: I don’t think you understand what I’m offering you.
Crowley: I understand. I think I understand a whole lot better than you do.
Crowley says that so compassionately, with such profound sadness. There’s almost a tenderness there.
But does he really understand, or is he blinded by his assumption that Aziraphale is doing what he did, and not seeing how desperate Aziraphale is, and how Aziraphale believes he has no choice?
They can’t communicate because they’re under surveillance and it’s not safe to speak freely (though Crowley seems bizarrely unaware of that in the Final Fifteen). They also can’t communicate because they’re not seeing each other, they’re only seeing their own pain and fear.
It seems to me that Neil Gaiman takes images and symbols and themes from mythology and religion and alters them in a way that at once complicates and clarifies?
I do think that both Aziraphale and Crowley are – or will be – or always have been – at once Christ figures and Judas figures – and their mutual betrayal will be essential to the redemption of the world.
Re: An Aziraphale divided against himself...
*nods* Also it plays into the whole issue of Aziraphale believing that Crowley didn't deserve to fall - that's his angle. I don't think he thinks beyond that (certainly not in the moment) - Heaven is ready to admit they were wrong, how can he not grasp that opportunity?
There is something old and wise about Crowley in that scene. And while he is so angry...he seems less angry at Aziraphale and more angry at the situation – as though he doesn’t really blame Aziraphale – as though he’s watching a child make a terrible mistake that he himself made, and he’s powerless to stop it, and it’s devastating, but...he understands.
I think I mentioned this already, but my first instinct after watching S2 was to label this 'Aziraphale's Fall'. And maybe in those moments that is correct. But it's momentary, fleeting. Then everything comes crashing down - Crowley walks out, the Metatron manipulates him out of there - and he's left utterly lost. (Until he hears about the 2nd Coming, and then he's all in for the sake of stopping it.) I think that's part of the issue - there are about 20 different things going on, one after the other after the other, everything changing every 30 seconds.
But does he really understand, or is he blinded by his assumption that Aziraphale is doing what he did, and not seeing how desperate Aziraphale is, and how Aziraphale believes he has no choice?
Oooh, now that is interesting. I don't remember seeing that thought before, but that works very well indeed. (Both of them projecting!)
They can’t communicate because they’re under surveillance and it’s not safe to speak freely (though Crowley seems bizarrely unaware of that in the Final Fifteen). They also can’t communicate because they’re not seeing each other, they’re only seeing their own pain and fear.
Very much. And yes, Crowley is... odd. I still don't know what to make of him. But I think they both need to work on their issues and learn to see beyond their pain and understand each other.
It seems to me that Neil Gaiman takes images and symbols and themes from mythology and religion and alters them in a way that at once complicates and clarifies?
Yeah, that's a good way of putting it! He digs into it beautifully.
Re: An Aziraphale divided against himself...
Yes.
Oooh, now that is interesting. I don't remember seeing that thought before, but that works very well indeed. (Both of them projecting!)
It's the only interpretation that makes any sense to me?
Very much. And yes, Crowley is... odd. I still don't know what to make of him.
Neither do I!
they both need to work on their issues and learn to see beyond their pain and understand each other.
Yes.
Re: An Aziraphale divided against himself...
*nods* He believes he is seeing Aziraphale making his own mistakes. In one of your previous replies (before you edited it out *g*) you wrote (in response to the observation that Aziraphale being utterly lost) But isn't that what the Fall was, really?, which I think is a very thought-provoking idea. I don't think Aziraphale 'falls' as such (I think he's being manipulated/coerced in some way), but he might be 'falling' from his relationship... except of course Crowley is still right there. He can't follow, but he's not abandoned Aziraphale the same way God abandoned him. (It's early, but right now this is making sense to me.)
Re: An Aziraphale divided against himself...
It’s worth noting what Aziraphale is not afraid of in that scene: he’s not afraid of his own obvious attraction to Crowley... Aziraphale is afraid of breaking rules and getting into trouble, but he’s not afraid of his own attraction to another angel....Aziraphale doesn’t see any conflict at all between obedience and his feelings for the angel-who-will-become-Crowley.
But if there are no obstacles to a relationship between Aziraphale and the angel-who-will-become-Crowley, that means that Crowley’s fall ended the potential for a relationship between them. Perhaps it ended an actual relationship.
But that means that when Crowley did get into trouble and did fall, Aziraphale must have felt something on the order of: If you’d just kept your mouth shut, if you’d just done as you were told, if you’d just obeyed God as angels are meant to obey, then we could have been together. If you hadn’t had to go asking questions and getting into trouble, we could have been together, in Heaven, obeying God and doing good (and having transcendent angel sex, “Easier than Air with Air”).
In other words: “We could have been...us.”
I've backed away from this (partly because
But I have to admit that I am still intrigued by the idea that the Final Fifteen could be a mirror for something that happened between them before the fall: if the angel-who-will-become-Crowley wanted Aziraphale to come with him, and Aziraphale said no.
I'm not arguing for that, really - I think it's highly unlikely - but it is something I keep thinking about.
Re: An Aziraphale divided against himself...
Sorry! I wasn't sure about it (I'm not sure about any of this!)
I think he's being manipulated/coerced in some way
I think so too.
Part of the reason I've backed away from the idea that Aziraphale's decisions in the Final Fifteen might be analogous to Crowley's decisions before the fall is that I don't think Crowley's decisions leading up to the fall were coerced in any way, and I do think it's likely that Aziraphale in the Final Fifteen is being coerced.
But while I think it's unlikely that Aziraphale's decisions in the Final Fifteen are actually analogous to Crowley's decisions before the fall...I think it's very likely that Crowley sees it as analogous (especially since he seems so bizarrely unaware of the possibility that Aziraphale is being coerced).
He can't follow, but he's not abandoned Aziraphale the same way God abandoned him. (It's early, but right now this is making sense to me.)
It's late, but it makes sense to me! <3
Re: An Aziraphale divided against himself...
I've seen people comment on the fact that Aziraphale is already cautious about upsetting things (and Crowley is the innocent one here) - and I can definitely see Aziraphale thinking to himself: "If only you had listened to me, everything would have been fine!" A thought/mindset which he probably carries with him. A quiet conviction that he knows best.
Oooh, you're very clever!
Re: An Aziraphale divided against himself...
But that's the fun of it! Poking at stuff and interrogating it and wondering how it holds together. Although it's also why it took me so long to write this up - not that I'm not sure about it, but because it's so difficult to pin down.
But while I think it's unlikely that Aziraphale's decisions in the Final Fifteen are actually analogous to Crowley's decisions before the fall...I think it's very likely that Crowley sees it as analogous (especially since he seems so bizarrely unaware of the possibility that Aziraphale is being coerced).
*nods* They are both projecting and not listening (because that's all they've ever been able to do). And again, that's one reason I wrote this... If there is coercion (which I do think there is), then it falls in line with everything else. Crowley doesn't suspect, because Aziraphale *would* be happy to 'fix' Heaven, and has always defaulted to 'Angels good, demons bad'... The Metatron is cleverer than the whole rest of Heaven put together!
It's late, but it makes sense to me! <3
<3
Re: An Aziraphale divided against himself...
I think it may run even deeper than that?
It occurs to me that there is a well of rage buried deep in Aziraphale, buried so deep that not only can he not admit it, he isn’t aware of it at all. He buries it partly because he’s afraid of anger, both his own and other people’s (and God’s) – and partly because he doesn’t like anger and he doesn’t approve of anger. Aziraphale’s default response to the world is, “Why can’t we all just get along?” Aziraphale wants to avoid conflict; Aziraphale wants everything and everyone to be nice.
Many people have pointed out how cold and sterile and loveless Heaven is, and how there seems to be no friendship, no warmth, no affection, not even any camaraderie among the angels we see. But it seems highly unlikely to me that that was the already the case before the war and the fall.
If the war and the fall changed Heaven for the worse, if the casting out of the rebels also cast out all the warmth and affection from Heaven...then Aziraphale may have quietly blamed Crowley not just for ruining the possibility of a happy relationship between them as two angels but also for ruining Heaven for everyone. Everything was perfectly lovely until you had to go asking questions: you’re why we can’t have nice things anymore.
Aziraphale tells Maggie, “I’m very good at forgiveness” – but that’s a lie. He’s not good at forgiveness. Maybe he keeps saying “I forgive you” to Crowley because he doesn’t. Maybe he’s carrying a deep, deep well of rage at Crowley that he is not consciously aware of at all?
Of course, his anger at Crowley is misdirected: he shouldn’t be angry at Crowley, he should be angry at God, at Heaven, at the system.
But he won’t be able to recognize that his anger at Crowley is misdirected until he is able to recognize that his anger exists, and...he doesn’t. His anger comes out in his words and his actions sometimes, but he isn’t consciously aware that it exists. He can’t allow himself to become aware of it, because if he did, then he would have to recognize that he’s not actually the nice one and he’s not actually good at forgiveness and he doesn’t actually know best...and then the whole edifice of his self-image would crumble.
(I’m not sure about this, just...pondering...)
Re: An Aziraphale divided against himself...
And - through Gabriel/Jim - we see how toxic Heaven's atmosphere is. Without Heaven's influence Gabriel was a sweetheart.
Plus, don't forget Aziraphale gave away the sword, he's hardly a paragon of virtue.
Wrt forgiveness, then I have yet to see a better take than this meta - I linked to it before, but it was incomplete then. Part 4 especially is brilliant.
Re: An Aziraphale divided against himself...
[And how systemic issues exacerbate that tendency. Think of a family in the US (where there is no social safety net and for-profit healthcare tied to employment means that even people with health insurance are one health crisis away from bankruptcy), a family just getting by, and then one parent gets cancer and the family falls from just-getting-by into poverty and they lose their home…and the healthy parent, deep down, blames the parent who got cancer for getting cancer, and they could never admit it consciously, but deep down the blame is there…and it’s exacerbated if they’ve been taught – as so many in the US are taught – that a safety net and universal healthcare are socialism and socialism is evil and if bad things happen to you then it’s your fault…and it’s easier to blame someone you love for getting sick than it is to recognize that the system is sick.]
But...I’m getting away from Aziraphale here...sorry!!!
Re: An Aziraphale divided against himself...
I think that Aziraphale might blame Crowley for falling (subconsciously), but I doubt he would extend that. Just like the healthy parent wouldn't blame the sick parent for the lack of social safety net, just for getting sick.