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Lockdown Update Day 107 (a Trans post)
I seem to have collected a lot of Trans links, and because I saw this on Twitter today (comment: Well this just broke me), I decided to post them now. Found the video on youtube so I could embed it.
I'm not crying, you're crying. (Happy tears!)
~
This is SUCH a good article, and looks at things in a way I hadn't come across before:
Andrea Dworkin Was a Trans Ally
On the fifteenth anniversary of Dworkin’s death, her longtime partner observes that she is often invoked to support beliefs she actively repudiated in her work.
ETA: I completely forgot to mention this BEST OF ALL glinner interactions: Define a chair. (Huzzah he has been banned permanently from Twitter. And there was much rejoicing. I hope he now gets some help.) Seriously though - the chair thing, and the article above, both touch on the impossibility of defining 'woman' with a set of rules.
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The whole bathroom issue...
On the policing of toilets. (Clearly lays out the issues and has useful links at the end.)
And would you look at that, not all UK newspapers are transphobic. Nice article here by The Metro:
It’s dehumanising for trans people to have to worry about using the toilet
Apologies for the JK mention in the title, I'm deliberately trying to keep her out of this, but this article just made my heart hurt:
What JK Rowling should know about a transgender woman like me: Every day in public is risky
Trans people constantly adjust to the feelings of cisgender people. There aren't enough hours to fight every battle, enough rights to guarantee safety.
~
And then a podcast!
Love in a Time of Science w/Dr. Emmy Zje
On this week's episode of Oh Hey Kiri! I talk with Dr. Emmy Zje, professor, teacher, and prolific tweeter, about her mission to make personal, internal identity a lot less mystifying through science, stories of experience, strong, supportive community.
(If you are on Twitter and not following Emmy Zje, make haste and click that Follow button! Smart, informative, entertaining.)
~
And a couple more articles:
Ultra-Orthodox and trans: 'I prayed to God to make me a girl'
How The Matrix universalized a trans experience — and helped me accept my own
The film, now 20 years old, is probably the most famous art ever made by trans people. But its cultural legacy doesn’t end there.
~
And finally. The artist is Gerda Wegener, and the portraits are of her wife Lili Elbe (more commonly known as 'The Danish Girl'). More information here.
I'm not crying, you're crying. (Happy tears!)
~
This is SUCH a good article, and looks at things in a way I hadn't come across before:
Andrea Dworkin Was a Trans Ally
On the fifteenth anniversary of Dworkin’s death, her longtime partner observes that she is often invoked to support beliefs she actively repudiated in her work.
ETA: I completely forgot to mention this BEST OF ALL glinner interactions: Define a chair. (Huzzah he has been banned permanently from Twitter. And there was much rejoicing. I hope he now gets some help.) Seriously though - the chair thing, and the article above, both touch on the impossibility of defining 'woman' with a set of rules.
~
The whole bathroom issue...
On the policing of toilets. (Clearly lays out the issues and has useful links at the end.)
And would you look at that, not all UK newspapers are transphobic. Nice article here by The Metro:
It’s dehumanising for trans people to have to worry about using the toilet
Apologies for the JK mention in the title, I'm deliberately trying to keep her out of this, but this article just made my heart hurt:
What JK Rowling should know about a transgender woman like me: Every day in public is risky
Trans people constantly adjust to the feelings of cisgender people. There aren't enough hours to fight every battle, enough rights to guarantee safety.
~
And then a podcast!
Love in a Time of Science w/Dr. Emmy Zje
On this week's episode of Oh Hey Kiri! I talk with Dr. Emmy Zje, professor, teacher, and prolific tweeter, about her mission to make personal, internal identity a lot less mystifying through science, stories of experience, strong, supportive community.
(If you are on Twitter and not following Emmy Zje, make haste and click that Follow button! Smart, informative, entertaining.)
~
And a couple more articles:
Ultra-Orthodox and trans: 'I prayed to God to make me a girl'
How The Matrix universalized a trans experience — and helped me accept my own
The film, now 20 years old, is probably the most famous art ever made by trans people. But its cultural legacy doesn’t end there.
~
And finally. The artist is Gerda Wegener, and the portraits are of her wife Lili Elbe (more commonly known as 'The Danish Girl'). More information here.
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I have about a thousand links relating to JKR, but quite frankly I don't really want to give her the time of day.
And thankfully I had lots of other things all ready & waiting! :)
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I don't understand why it should undermine transgender people, who absolutely have the right to live a safe life and have complete autodetermination over their bodies.
But women's oppression is a sex based oppression. It's structural, it happens all over the world, with various degree of viciousness but it's always there. And while trans people should be accepted in the space they feel most comfortable, women also need sex-segregated spaces for safety reasons. It's a balancing act, but I don't believe it's vain to try to have this conversation and I believe we can have it while being respectful of each other, because that's how democracy works (Or should work).
But a thing I personally don't understand - and ultimately I kind of don't like - it's removing for the language all the "sexed" references as a form of inclusion. I understand that it's well-meaning for most people, but the world is a cruel place where nothing ever is neutral.
Recently there has been an increase in the FGM due to the pandemic, because girls who don't go at school are at higher risk of being cut and even at an higher risk of dying as a consequence of this horrible act (Will they be taken to hospital if the bleeding doesn't stop? Yeah, I don't think so)
And where I live, there are periodically news of young girls (adults, adolescents or even pre-pubescent) being raped in certain places before the sailing from Lybia, arriving here in our costs and disappearing after that or being sold and working as prostitutes in the streets.
It's shameful, inhumane, utterly horrific. And it happens on the basis of sex. We can't ever forget to address this point, if not for ourselves (We are the lucky ones, truly) for them.
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Re. J.K. Rowling, then it depends whether you believe she is arguing in good faith. I can't. It's been going on for a long time, and she is doubling down. Do I hope she'll change? Of course. It's basic radicalisation, but at this point she is using her platform against trans people (Republican senator quotes JK Rowling’s essay on trans people to shut down a vote on LGBT+ rights). It's very depressing. :(
Re. sexual violence, then yes, it's very sex based. Women are on the receiving end throughout our lives. But trans women, as a subset of overall women, are more at risk than cis women. More at risk of harassment, violence (any kind, including domestic, and are far less likely to report it), rape, murder etc etc. Excluding them from safe spaces (on a hypothetical 'predator' basis) is not helpful for anyone, and simply leaves trans women more at risk.
(Speaking of bathroom, I'm pretty sure that statistically you're more likely to be assaulted by a Republican Senator than a trans person. Plus, when North Carolina introduced it's bathroom bill, those suffering the most were cis lesbians, because they don't look 'female' enough...)
Mostly I'd say read the Dworkin piece. Genuinely complex, interesting thoughts on sex and gender and how the patriarchy has seeped into everything. (Possibly more tomorrow. Am v tired now.)
In short: Trans women are not a threat to cis women. Sex is complicated.
ETA: SO TIRED. Sorry if I come off as combative, I just want to talk. <3
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You didn't! (And I hope I don't too) I'm just trying to understand this issue, because it seems to me that in UK there's a particular legislation that allows self-id (Or will allow self-id)? And I get that, from this issue, there have been a fighting/debating among people.
(Speaking of bathroom, I'm pretty sure that statistically you're more likely to be assaulted by a Republican Senator than a trans person. Plus, when North Carolina introduced it's bathroom bill, those suffering the most were cis lesbians, because they don't look 'female' enough...)
LOL, I'm sure of it! American Right-wing seems particularly evil or is just my impression?
The problem is: when it comes to legislation, one should use an abstract and general criterion that can't contradict itself, because otherwise it would be unfair and would create too many loopholes.
So should this criterion be sex or gender? I understand that US-UK are more oriented towards gender, but personally I see the sex criterion as still fundamental.
Obviously, sex-segregated spaces don't solve everything! If you think that in males-only spaces, gay men experience aggressions and stuff, you see the faults in this system. Still, I believe it's a necessity, especially in certain circumstances/places. It could be useful to try discuss about a third space, maybe?
Generally, I believe that we have to be analytical and discuss about this issue respectfully and logically, without shouting insults at each other or death and rape threats. I've seen some allarming stuff on Twitter and, in general, on the Internet and I didn't like it.
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Oh good! And discussion is good. (Which is why LJ is so vastly superior to Twitter - Twitter is useful but on the whole terrible for discussion, which is why I only lurk.)
I'm just trying to understand this issue, because it seems to me that in UK there's a particular legislation that allows self-id (Or will allow self-id)? And I get that, from this issue, there have been a fighting/debating among people.
Well, they are trying to update the legislation so it's easier to self-ID. The government wanted to strike it down, but there has thankfully been a lot of push back.
LOL, I'm sure of it! American Right-wing seems particularly evil or is just my impression?
Not just your impression! Sadly in terms of influence, the American right-wing has a lot of influence over here when it comes to trans issues. :(
The problem is: when it comes to legislation, one should use an abstract and general criterion that can't contradict itself, because otherwise it would be unfair and would create too many loopholes.
Well, in terms of bathrooms then it has been legal for trans people to use the bathroom of the gender they identify as for 10 years already (ditto shelters etc). No problems reported (except for trans people being harassed by transphobes). The 'discussion' is creating a problem where no problem exists.
So should this criterion be sex or gender? I understand that US-UK are more oriented towards gender, but personally I see the sex criterion as still fundamental.
The issue is... how do you patrol that? Where does the dividing line go? What about intersex people? (See article above, it lays out all the issues quite nicely.) Also if you have, for example, a trans woman still waiting for surgery, but who otherwise looks like a woman - should she out herself by using the gents? That is a huge personal risk she would have to take. So, if the legislation comes down along sex lines, it means that trans people are effectively unable to access toilet facilities, which limits their lives hugely.
It could be useful to try discuss about a third space, maybe?
Make everything unisex!
Generally, I believe that we have to be analytical and discuss about this issue respectfully and logically, without shouting insults at each other or death and rape threats. I've seen some allarming stuff on Twitter and, in general, on the Internet and I didn't like it.
*nods* My advice (if you're on Twitter) is to follow trans people (I can provide a list!). They are lovely and tend to know the issues they face better than anyone. (One person has just started a chronicling the realisation that they're trans: https://reallifecomics.com/comic.php?comic=june-29-2020 - if you click on the image it takes you to the next page. Five posted so far. This is their Twitter handle: https://twitter.com/maegodhavemercy)
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I think Rowling's argument falls apart on the basis that "sex specific spaces" aren't safe no matter what. That safety is an illusion. And if it's not a matter of safety, it's a matter of comfort. Some women are uncomfortable sharing single-sex spaces with trans women. The specter of "the predator" is used to deflect the issue. I personally don't believe that getting an ID card is much more of an invitation than just the fact that these spaces exist. A determined predator will exploit any sex-safe space.
Luckily, the percentage of men who are determined predators is pretty low. Yes, sexual violence exists, but some cultures at least are not as steeped in it as radical feminists would have one believe. It is a nightmare to live your life on constant high alert brought on by fully one half of the population. It sucks that people who have been victimized have this kind of trauma. Building the world to their specifications of safety would take a lot of effort.
I think it's much more likely that a lot of people arguing for trans exclusivity are doing so from the perception that just being trans is somehow deviant. This is why I think the line of reasoning is disingenuous.
(But hey, I play co-ed ice hockey where we all get dressed in co-ed locker rooms, and the one time a rink tried to codify sex segregation for all teams on its premises it caused a furor.)
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As I wrote above myself: sex-segregated spaces aren't the solution to everything. The solution would be to completely eradicate male violence and we are, unfortunately, very far from that.
I wouldn't classify women who want to preserve single-sex spaces as "bigots" necessarily or think that they are doing so just in hate on trans people (Although, obviously there are haters and bigots, as for every issue) But I think that people who went through terrible traumas or are escaping certain violent situations are particularly vulnerable even to things we would classify "harmless", and I don't mean just trans women, btw, but generally. Women who are survivors of violence (domestic or otherwise) should receive a special care.
And again, Elisi pointed out another problem: what about people in the process of transition?
I'm thinking that providing third spaces could probably be the solution? Or maybe doing a bit of third spaces in some places and a bit of sex-segregated spaces in other places, just to provide multiple choices to people and see what they like the most and what works most.
I know all this process requires money though! Maybe the government could provide some founding or taxes cuts for those who want to try?
Yeah, I know. This is really naive of me. LOL.
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But I think that people who went through terrible traumas or are escaping certain violent situations are particularly vulnerable even to things we would classify "harmless", and I don't mean just trans women, btw, but generally. Women who are survivors of violence (domestic or otherwise) should receive a special care.
I was reading through your reply, and I thought of this.
Which ties in with eve11's comment:
'Some women are uncomfortable sharing single-sex spaces with trans women. The specter of "the predator" is used to deflect the issue.'
ETA: This is not new. Alison Bechdel (yes, she of the Bechdel Test) did a comic about this 25 years ago.
This is where differentiating between 'sex' and 'gender' requires... education [for cis people]. Like how white people have to educate themselves on their privilege. Because we are brought up with a very simple binary - boy or girl - that conflates sex and gender, and that also makes sex into an either-or. (XX or XY) When biologically, it's so much more complex, but it's not a conversation that is being had in society generally.
I'm thinking that providing third spaces could probably be the solution? Or maybe doing a bit of third spaces in some places and a bit of sex-segregated spaces in other places, just to provide multiple choices to people and see what they like the most and what works most.
It seems a lovely idea, except every country that has implemented self ID/letting people choose the bathroom they are most comfortable with, has reported zero problems. The issues are imaginary. But, because of what I mentioned above, the way women are conditioned to be wary of men (and rightly too) it's a very powerful scaremongering tactic. In reality you just have trans people who want to be able to use a toilet without being questioned/attacked. ETA: Again, see the comic. The people in danger, are the trans people as well as those who are not gender conforming, like butch lesbians.
In short: trans people just want to pee. They are not a danger.
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Hi! *waves* Thank you for joining. :)
I think it's much more likely that a lot of people arguing for trans exclusivity are doing so from the perception that just being trans is somehow deviant. This is why I think the line of reasoning is disingenuous.
This. It depends on your starting pov. And I think you put your finger on the crux of the matter here:
'Some women are uncomfortable sharing single-sex spaces with trans women. The specter of "the predator" is used to deflect the issue.'
(But hey, I play co-ed ice hockey where we all get dressed in co-ed locker rooms, and the one time a rink tried to codify sex segregation for all teams on its premises it caused a furor.)
Good for you! :)
The Laws of Commenting Are Mine and They Will Obey Me
(Anonymous) 2020-08-15 04:34 pm (UTC)(link)When it comes to the Matrix: everyone knows about the symbolism, and Switch, something wrong with the world, dysphoria and all that, yes. But had you noticed that Agent Smith essentially, keeps maliciously dead-naming Neo, or the significance of the scene with the subway train near the end, given Lana's attempted suicide?
;)
Re: The Laws of Commenting Are Mine and They Will Obey Me
I might do... I am actually thinking of writing A Huge Big Enormous Post about all the trans issues, because I have accumulated about a million links and someone on my flist got ensnared in GC talking points and... *waves hands* Trying consolidate All The Things makes sense. (Not sure when, but I'll get there.)
But had you noticed that Agent Smith essentially, keeps maliciously dead-naming Neo,
Oh yes!
or the significance of the scene with the subway train near the end, given Lana's attempted suicide?
Not having seen the movie in... at least 15 years, I don't remember many specifics, nor did I know about Lana's attempted suicide. I ought to read up on it all, and then re-watch!
Re: The Laws of Commenting Are Mine and They Will Obey Me
(Anonymous) 2020-08-15 08:40 pm (UTC)(link)Aww, man. That sounds... tremendously ambitious of you. And I bet there's all sorts of Doctor Who and Good Omens things waiting in line too... Anyway, take your time, look who's talking anyway, etc.
Not having seen the movie in... at least 15 years, I don't remember many specifics, nor did I know about Lana's attempted suicide. I ought to read up on it all, and then re-watch!
Well, ah, long story short:
Lana confessed –I think in an interview- that she had planned and almost followed through a suicide attempt on a subway track one time. Which is significant, because in the climax, Neo and Agent Smith fight in a subway station**, Smith kicks his ass, drags him in front of an oncoming train, taunts him, and he goes "My name is Neo", does a backflip, and escapes at the last second. So you know, cool.
(*Martial Artist Side-note: If you pay attention, you might notice that Smith has a very bland, straightforward fighting style. Punch, punch, punch, block, a straight kick if he gets excited; which is especially noteworthy since we’re talking about Kung Fu Jesus Does Wire Fu, The Movie. But. This makes total sense, I believe it's on purpose, and could be considered a cool piece of world and character-building.
Because a) he’s a program. So he thinks like one. Does it work? Is it efficient? Yes. So why do a bunch of fancy flips and triple kicks? And b) why would he need to know how to do anything more complicated? If you’re so fast you can dodge bullets and so strong you can punch through walls, well, who cares about technique? You don’t need to know how to sword-fight if you own a tank.)
Re: The Laws of Commenting Are Mine and They Will Obey Me
I seem to have a talent for composing posts with millions of links. I find organising soothing. And it seems silly to have all these links and *not* share them...
Which is significant, because in the climax, Neo and Agent Smith fight in a subway station**, Smith kicks his ass, drags him in front of an oncoming train, taunts him, and he goes "My name is Neo", does a backflip, and escapes at the last second. So you know, cool.
Ooooh, yes. Shades of Buffy there (and I mean that 100% as a compliment). I really need to re-watch it.
Because a) he’s a program. So he thinks like one. Does it work? Is it efficient? Yes. So why do a bunch of fancy flips and triple kicks? And b) why would he need to know how to do anything more complicated? If you’re so fast you can dodge bullets and so strong you can punch through walls, well, who cares about technique? You don’t need to know how to sword-fight if you own a tank.)
I like this. Yes.
(Sorry more later. Or tomorrow. Am heading into The Busiest Time at work.)