elisi | Last 'Why We Fight' thoughts

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episode thoughts

Last 'Why We Fight' thoughts - promise!

First of all, look at the wonderful icons moscow_watcher made! *loves*

Now I think that one reason Spike fans in particular have a problem with ‘Why We Fight’ is because of Spike-in-the-Nazi-coat. It’s a funny thing, but a couple of years ago Prince Harry (around 17 at the time I think) turned up at a fancy dress party in Nazi uniform. Obviously this was a PR disaster, and he had to do a public apology etc. But it illustrates my point rather nicely - this ep. is about Angel as the father, and here we see Spike as the eternal teen tearaway (which goes for most of unsouled!Spike - and vampires generally - of course). We see how he’s rather proud of having a ‘famous daddy’, and yet won’t stop being annoying and difficult. *But* - he does as Angel tells him.

Now going back to Angel-as-the-father (yet again, sorry), then we see he is not at all interested in helping the Initiative - their tales of dying soldiers leaves him cold. But then we get this moment:

MILITARY MAN (takes a top-secret file out of his briefcase, stands, tosses the file in Angel's lap):
We think we know what attacked our boys.

Angel reads that - and his face changes. And I’ll bet anything that Spike’s name was on that list. It’s like the old crook grudgingly agreeing to help the cops, because his kid’s involved... after all he *was* the one who taught him how to open a safe. He feels responsible. And possibly, maybe, just the tiniest bit worried. ~~But notice that they still strap weights to his feet...~~ ETA: Herself pointed out that he needed the weights to sink... But still - he didn't get a sudden burst of patriotism (he’s Irish!), and he really didn’t care about the war (he jumped ship off the coast of Maine and went underground till the war was over).

But of course once onboard the sub he gets attached to the crew - Lawson particularly, because I think Angel is drawn to people who believe they can make a difference - and then he has to destroy him. Is it any wonder that he decides that people generally are better off without him?

ETA:

deborahc made me look at this bit of dialogue again:

LAWSON: I don't know. It's technical. (grabs the report, leafs through it) Something about stimulation and... control. They've been experimenting on them... and cutting into their brains.
SPIKE: That what got the Prince's coronet in a twist, isn't it? Found out you were gonna pop our tops and melon-ball us.
LAWSON: They're trying to create an army... out of things like you.
SPIKE: (looks at Angel) That explains why they nicked us. Cream of the crop. Wanna build an army of vampire slaves, you start at the top—with the generals.
LAWSON: (to the German) It's not enough what you're already doing in the world, is it? Only you and your fuehrer could come up with something this sick.
GERMAN: (laughs) Da sind wir nicht die Einzigen, mein Junge... (to Angel) nicht wahr?
ANGEL: Genug!
SPIKE: I am the only one don't speak Kraut?!
LAWSON: (to Angel) You knew about this?
SPIKE: He did?
ANGEL: It was part of the mission.

I hadn't actually thought about this in detail before - but Angel came to save Spike from being chipped (and used as gun fodder)! 'Why We Fight' indeed...

It's just so cute! *loves Angel*

ETA2: Oh! Brainwave! Maybe Angel sent Lawson and Spike off so they wouldn't be captured by the Americans! Remember Angel jumped ship as well and stayed 'underground'... Maybe his orders included bringing back the vampires as well as the info - and then he'd get a free pass himself or something. Hmmm...

This idea also puts his smile in a new light - he'd succeeded in his mission, keeping Spike safe. :)

"You gotta do what you can to protect your family. I learned that from my father."
Connor, Origin

So we see that Angel in both cases was willing to take on a mission he didn't want for the sake of his offspring. Very nice paralleling.

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I think the weights to the feet were so he'd be able to GET to the sub--not because they were still forcing him to do it at that point. But this is a great analysis, I'm sure you're right!

Personally I had no problem with the Nazi uniform, I was annoyed on first viewing by how adolescently stupid and annoying Spike was~~though on subsequent viewings I realized it was just totally in character for him to be like that. I was also annoyed because the black hair detracted from his looks~~I wanted him to be more handsome. It's the little things.

I think the weights to the feet were so he'd be able to GET to the sub
*hits self over head* Duh!

on subsequent viewings I realized it was just totally in character for him to be like that
It does show beautifully how much he has grown. And makes the last scene that more poignant.

I wanted him to be more handsome. It's the little things.
I know. Me too.

You already know I agree with you. I've always thought that Angel accepted the mission because he read Spike's name on the paper.

Good connection to Prince Harry! As

shadowkat67 pointed out 4 or 5 years ago in her studies of characters, soulless Spike is the representation of Peter Pan's syndrome, and WWF showed it again.

I've always thought that Angel accepted the mission because he read Spike's name on the paper.
And of course it also mirrors the end - Angel and his boys vs. the soldiers. Angel tries to bridge the gap and only ends up making it wider. Poor Angel.

Good connection to Prince Harry!
Thanks. :) It just suddenly struck me.

soulless Spike is the representation of Peter Pan's syndrome, and WWF showed it again.
Oh I like that. I remembered everyone complaining that he acted *stupid*, but he doesn't really. Annoying yes, but then he is really trying to get under Angel's skin!

Oh and I love the ending... the way Angel (beginning with 'Damage' of course) begins to confide in Spike. And the way Spike picks up on his moods and knows exactly what to say.

Besides it wasn't about the way Spike really was but the way Angel saw him.

On Ats, and especially on certain episodes things and characters are showed from Angel's perspective or at least in relation to Angel.

but the way Angel saw him.
Also an excellent point!

It's also telling that the government operative says to Angel, "We need you to deal with..." (pauses) "what's on it." They choose Angel *specifically* for this task, because they're aware of his prior relationship with Spike.

Also, Angel doesn't seem the least bit surprised to see Spike there. There's no doubt in my mind... Angel goes there to help out his boy. It's why he fights, after all.

They choose Angel *specifically* for this task, because they're aware of his prior relationship with Spike.
It does raise some questions about where they get their information... they know about Angel's soul (The Council doesn't!) and yet 50 years later they have no clue about The Slayer - or Spike!

There's no doubt in my mind... Angel goes there to help out his boy.
Bloody kids... By far my favourite character on 'Malcolm in the Middle' was Francis. Do you think maybe I have a type? *g*

It does raise some questions about where they get their information... they know about Angel's soul (The Council doesn't!) and yet 50 years later they have no clue about The Slayer - or Spike!

Well, you know how bureaucracy works. Records get lost or destroyed, people retire, institutional memory starts to disappear... and pretty soon no one even knows why they were set up in the first place. It happens all the time. :D

and pretty soon no one even knows why they were set up in the first place
Sadly that is very, very true!

Late to the party, but having fun rereading your old meta as I do a Season 5 rewatch. Just thought - what if the reason they knew all this back then but don't know it now - mindwipes. Maybe a powerful sorcerer got wise to governments collecting research and did a spell to keep them in the dark. It bought the demon world another 50 years of secrecy. Kept the lid on by removing all demonic records from the governemnt. And that definitely seems like something that W&H would be interested in doing - keeping the government in the dark. We already know that evil is working to infiltrate the government through the Circle's Senator who's hoping to become President. What if she was just one in a long line of demonic politicians (Captial D).

Just thought - what if the reason they knew all this back then but don't know it now - mindwipes.
Oooh, good thought! Especially since W&H wouldn't want the government to mess with Angel.

And I love people reading my old posts - there's plenty of them! :)

I'd always assumed that the paper the army guys showed him merely disclosed the presence of vampires on board that sub; it never occurred to me that it actually mentioned Spike by name. I wonder whether it gave any reason for the presence of the vampires and, if so, what that reason was. If not, wouldn't Angel have asked the army guys what they were up to before he left?

Now that I think about it, if all Angel knew was that there were vampires aboard, I can't really feature him giving a flying'. We certainly never saw him expressing any particular concern for the species in general - on the contrary - generally speaking, in the buffy/angelverse vampire unlife is considered cheap among both the living and the undead alike (as it says in the song) "outside of a small circle of friends." So, if patriotism didn't motivate him, and he wouldn't have cared about the survival of (unrelated) vampires, then it only makes sense for him to have accepted that mission if he found that something or someone he cared about was at stake.

Huh. I'll have to check that episode out again tonight - it's been awhile.

And the uniform didn't bother me - I thought Spike's reason for wearing it was funny and found it to be entirely in character. That black hair did nothing for him, though.

generally speaking, in the buffy/angelverse vampire unlife is considered cheap among both the living and the undead alike (as it says in the song) "outside of a small circle of friends."

I take it back. After further consideration, I recall that it's mostly Angel and Spike who we see killing other vampires without a qualm. Most of the time, the other vampires (and demons) are indignant that they kill their own kind.

Most of the time, the other vampires (and demons) are indignant that they kill their own kind.
Well it depends - I think killing minions it par for the course. But being a White Hat is someting else.

I wonder whether it gave any reason for the presence of the vampires and, if so, what that reason was.
Now this is quite interesting, because (I noticed this time) Angel is told about what the mission is:

LAWSON: I don't know. It's technical. (grabs the report, leafs through it) Something about stimulation and... control. They've been experimenting on them... and cutting into their brains.
SPIKE: That what got the Prince's coronet in a twist, isn't it? Found out you were gonna pop our tops and melon-ball us.
LAWSON: They're trying to create an army... out of things like you.
SPIKE: (looks at Angel) That explains why they nicked us. Cream of the crop. Wanna build an army of vampire slaves, you start at the top—with the generals.
LAWSON: (to the German) It's not enough what you're already doing in the world, is it? Only you and your fuehrer could come up with something this sick.
GERMAN: (laughs) Da sind wir nicht die Einzigen, mein Junge... (to Angel) nicht wahr?
ANGEL: Genug!
SPIKE: I am the only one don't speak Kraut?!
LAWSON: (to Angel) You knew about this?
SPIKE: He did?
ANGEL: It was part of the mission.

I hadn't actually thought about this in detail before - but e came to save Spike from being chipped!

That's so cute! *loves Angel*

Huh. I'll have to check that episode out again tonight - it's been awhile.
Do! I've written three posts about this ep now... (just click on the 'episode thoughts' tag if you want to read them all.)

That's a really intriguing thought and it makes the most sense in terms of Angel's motivation. Reminds me a bit of what he says to Dru in BtVS S2.

ANGEL: Drusilla, leave here. I'm offering you that chance. Take Spike and get out.
DRUSILLA: Or you'll hurt me? No. No, you can't. Not anymore.
ANGEL: If you don't leave it'll go badly. For all of us.
DRUSILLA: My dear boy's gone all away, hasn't he? To her.
ANGEL: Who?
DRUSILLA: The girl. The Slayer. Your heart stinks of her. Poor little thing. She has no idea what's in store.
ANGEL: This can't go on, Drusilla. It's gotta end.
DRUSILLA: Oh, no, my pet. This is just the beginning.

He's pointing out that things will go badly for all of them. One could assume he means it would go badly for him because Buffy might die, but it could just as well mean he'd hate to see Spike and Dru killed. After all, he's appealing to the one person Spike would probably listen to about leaving. Rather odd though that Dru doesn't seem to realize it's the end for her relationship with Spike. But then she doesn't see everything.

That's a really intriguing thought and it makes the most sense in terms of Angel's motivation.
He went to save his boy! *is very happy* (That's why he fights. It's always about family!)

He's pointing out that things will go badly for all of them.
Indeed. And he's *hopeless* in 'School Hard'. He tells the gang that Spike is 'worse than anything they've ever faced', then tries to sweet talk Spike into a truce (or something) and then vanishes... he's not the one saving Buffy's life. Hmmm... He's already killed Darla, me thinks he's had ebough of slaughtering his family. I have to re-watch S2 now from that angle! :)

But then she doesn't see everything.
Drusilla: "I can't see her. The Slayer. I can't see. (looks back up) It's dark where she is. Kill her. Kill her, Spike. Kill her for me?"

And he's *hopeless* in 'School Hard'.

He is! Joyce is more useful than he is. Given the fact that he should be worried for Buffy he certainly doesn't do much to go against Spike the whole time he's in Sunnydale. I think he's more willing to die himself than kill them -- which goes a way to explain the otherwise inexplicable weakness he demonstrates in Becoming when he is so easily captured and taken away by Spike.

"I can't see her. The Slayer. I can't see. (looks back up) It's dark where she is.

Which makes sense. Especially where her own future is concerned I would expect Dru's vision to be murky. Otherwise there'd be all sorts of things she could avoid, such as being burned by Angel on AtS.

I think he's more willing to die himself than kill them.
Yes, I think you're right. And also puts in a new light Spike's offer of staking Dru for Buffy's sake in 'Crush' (I really *must* finish that essay one day...) - it's the ultimate sacrifice.

Especially where her own future is concerned I would expect Dru's vision to be murky.
*nods*

I still just love that Spike's failure to finish destroying the Nazi research papers is presumably what led to the American DRI vampire scientists working on and on to invent the feedback chip by the 1990s. That kind of seriously evil idea would have to start with Nazis (or a major cosmetics company).

And then in 1999 Spike gets one of those chips in his very own noggin.

I still just love that Spike's failure to finish destroying the Nazi research papers is presumably what led to the American DRI vampire scientists working on and on to invent the feedback chip by the 1990s.
Hee! I know! (It's that fire fobia...)

That kind of seriously evil idea would have to start with Nazis
Oh but the Americans were catching up! Although I guess they needed someone like Maggie Walsh to get the thing off the ground properly. Actually this episode explains why they were doing chip-experiments on vampires, when what they really were interested in was making demon/human hybrids. But if you're an evil scientist with access to Nazi experiment notes, you just have to have a go...

I still just love that Spike's failure to finish destroying the Nazi research papers...

I am slow and confused; as I said, it's been a long time since I watched this episode. Was it a Nazi sub they were on or an American? I don't remember. Hadn't the Americans captured a Nazi sub? If so, then where was the American sub? Had the Americans captured the Nazi sub and then taken most of the Germans on board the US sub as prisoners? And had the Americans left a boarding crew of US soldiers aboard the Nazi sub to bring it back to the USA? Had these Americans then found the vampire *cargo* aboard the Nazi submarine?

I know I must not have this right because the one Nazi guy left aboard was the sole survivor of the Nazis killed by the vampires, right? But, I guess that the major point I'd forgotten was that it was the Nazis who'd collected and imprisoned the vampires, with the object of experimenting with behavior modification chips on them, right? And the Americans get hold of the plans and get the idea that eventually gives rise to the Initiative?

I really have to watch it again and un-muddle my head.

the major point I'd forgotten was that it was the Nazis who'd collected and imprisoned the vampires, with the object of experimenting with behavior modification chips on them, right? And the Americans get hold of the plans and get the idea that eventually gives rise to the Initiative?
That's it, pretty much. Although the Americans had obviously thought along the same lines, because they captured the Nazi sub *specifically* to get hold of the research.

And yes, it's an American sub they're all on - it's not made clear if the vampires escaped before or after it captured the Nazi one.

If they're on an American Sub then what happened to the Nazi sub?

Dunno. Never thought about it. When you re-watch maybe you'll find out. My guess is that they 'lost' it in the panic.

I am positive they are still on the Nazi sub:

Military Man: Everybody’s gotta do his part. That’s all I’m sayin’. Doenitz has been kickin’ the holy hell out of us in the Atlantic. Allies are losin’ up to 100 ships a month to his u-boats. Their damn submarines are faster, stronger, and more powerful than anything we’ve got in the water. Say what you will about the Krauts, them sons-of-bitches know how to build a boat. Up till now, we haven’t had much luck figuring out what makes ’em tick, but 2 days ago our boys managed to capture what appears to be a T-class German-prototype submarine.

Angel: unenthusiastically That’s... great news.

Military Man: Yes, it is. Unfortunately, when they were bringin’ it back here, something went wrong. Late last night, we received fragments of a distress call. Something was on that ship. Have you ever heard dying men screaming for their lives, Angel?

AtS 5-13 – Why We Fight

(Actually a T-class is a British sub, but historical detail was never ME's strong point.)

Lawson and his mates were just the prize-crew on the Nazi sub. Whatever vessel they were originally from was presumably somewhere else by the time the sub stopped and needed rescuing, and it probably wasn't a sub anyway - I am pretty sure subs didn't go up against other subs under normal circumstances, a sub would be captured by a surface vessel forcing it to the surface with depth charges. Because you can't really capture under water - it would be nigh impossible to transfer men from one sub to another under the surface. That was why they needed to send a diver down, and it needed to be a diver who despite arriving alone was capable of dealing with vampires.

So a surface vessel must have captured the u-boat, sent off the cargo manifest to headquarters by radio, put a prize-crew on the u-boat, and moved on to its next mission. It would be sensible to leave the Nazi prisoners on board the u-boat since they would get them back to the U.S faster that way. The vamps then escaped from their crates somehow (perhaps not kept drugged once the Nazis were no longer looking after them?) and they ate the Nazi prisoners first, then started on the prize-crew.

Lawson and his mates were just the prize-crew on the Nazi sub.
Thank you! :) Techinical details just sort of pass me by, but it all makes sense now.

I just noticed something odd.

LAWSON: (to the German) It's not enough what you're already doing in the world, is it? Only you and your fuehrer could come up with something this sick.
GERMAN: (laughs) Da sind wir nicht die Einzigen, mein Junge... (to Angel) nicht wahr?
ANGEL: Genug!
SPIKE: I am the only one don't speak Kraut?!
LAWSON: (to Angel) You knew about this?

Now unless my German has totally deserted me, what the German is saying is 'We are not the only ones, my boy... (to Angel) Isn't that so?'
To which Angel snaps 'enough'.

Spike doesn't speak German, so Angel is trying to prevent Lawson hearing the German claim that the U.S government is using demons, presumably because he doesn't want Lawson realising Angel is a vampire. But how did the German know? Or perhaps he didn't know, in which case he was not simply referring to the fact that the U.S. were using Angel to do their dirty work, it means he knew the U.S. were already experimenting. The later seems likely since you don't set up a Demon Research Initiative and then do nothing with it and very few people have ever realised Angel was a vamp just by looking (for example Buffy!)

Anyway, if Angel has just heard from a German that the U.S government are experimenting he has every reason to get his offspring to safety, and himself. And it would be unlike Angel to leave dangerous evidence behind - he had plenty of time to go back and finish Spike's half done burn job. So the Initiative would be starting without the Nazi research, which would help explain why they knew so little about Angel and Spike and also why it took them so long to get up and running in Sunnydale.

What I don't understand is why Lawson didn't pick up on what the German had said - his German was easily good enough to follow it. Yet Lawson doesn't seem to care that his beloved government is tarred with the same brush.

The later seems likely since you don't set up a Demon Research Initiative and then do nothing with it and very few people have ever realised Angel was a vamp just by looking (for example Buffy!)
*nods* Also he called Angel 'Junge' (kid).

Anyway, if Angel has just heard from a German that the U.S government are experimenting he has every reason to get his offspring to safety, and himself.
Now I think that he was actually told this by the Initiative guys - that retreiving the papers on the chip experiments was his main mission.

he had plenty of time to go back and finish Spike's half done burn job.
That's a good thought and makes sense - and Maggie Walsh might just know that the German's tried and have to have a go herself.

Yet Lawson doesn't seem to care that his beloved government is tarred with the same brush.
Oh he does - although at first his reaction is denial:

"We wouldn't do that. You don't win a war by doing whatever it takes. You win by doing what's right."

And then moments later the 4 destroyers turn up and they're busy fighting - and then he gets stabbed. He has precious little time to worry. But we see later that he *did* take in the information:

ANGEL: We're out of air. Crew's not gonna make it if we don't vent.
LAWSON: They swore to give their lives for their country... just like me. Besides, I'm hungry.
ANGEL: They're still your men.
LAWSON: But they're not the mission... are they?

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Last 'Why We Fight' thoughts - promise!

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