elisi | A thought about 'saint!Cordy'

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A thought about 'saint!Cordy'

People have been bitching about Saint!Cordy in the AOQ thread for 'Provider':

> Cordy was always
> the one making sure they got paid for what they did (she went 30 miles
> out of her way by cab just to collect a payment and ended up with a 3rd
> eye for her trouble!) but now suddenly she's the one "keeping things in
> perspective" ???? It makes me sick that they are turning her into a
> goody two shoes when she never was one, especially since it doesn't suit
> her at all. Cordy being the "heart" is just wrong, no matter what the
> writers say through Fred.

Now I'm not going to argue that 'Provider' is a good episode, all I'll focus on is this bit that I'm guessing is what makes people annoyed:

Cordy: "Angel - I'm glad you wanna take care of your son. I am. I just wanna make sure we don't lose sight of the mission."
Angel: "Well, we have to earn a living. I mean, not just for Connor, but for all of us."
Cordy: "I agree. But first and foremost we work for the Powers, help the helpless. Promise me we won't neglect that."

Soooo, what happened to 'money is IMPORTANT!!!'Cordy? Well partly she has been changing a lot over the last many years - not to mention dating Xander! She'll do what she wants, no matter how lame. Anyway, what we must remember is that in the previous episode(!!!!) she gave up fame and fortune to continue as Angel's link to The Powers. And not just that, but she chose to become part-demon in the process. She now has an awful lot invested in that side of things. When Angel talks about making money, she can't help but take it slightly personally: 'Don't forget about me!' she's saying. Because in a very literal sense Cordelia has become the mission. They help the helpless through her, they work for The Powers through her. And I think that Cordelia likes to feel important [ETA: Maybe a better word would be 'needed']... not that she isn't becoming a better person, but there is a good deal of pride wound up in being 'special'. I really don't think she's quite a saint-like as she wants to think she is... ;)

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I don't think it's a matter of wanting to be 'special' so much as wanting to be needed. This goes back to her Btvs days. In Out of Mind, Out of Sight' she lets Buffy in on her frustration with not being taken for being anything other than rich and cute and popular - it's beginning to not work for her. She has air pockets and wants more, even though that part may go unsaid. But it's there when she very delibertely saves Jenny and Willow at the end of Prophecy Girl, when she approaches Buffy and the others and promises to keep their secret and when she follows Willow and Xander into the library in SAR, at the start of Btvs s2. She has no reason to be there but it was my impression that she wanted to help. What got lost in all the angst over Buffy's impending death was Cordelia losing the first guy she really cared about, the boy whom she and Willow found dead in the audio/visual room. There's a scene later of her in her car, parked at night and she's pensive. I believe this is where she made her decision to be part of the fight.

In AtS, she's the heart and she's practical. First she witnesses Doyle's sacrifice, then she gets a huge, day long dose of the helpless up close at the end of TSILA. That firms up her resolve, makes it personal. In s2, she's fired along with Wesley and Gunn and has to deal with having visions with no Angel to attend to them, and she's worried, rightly so, about having no income. She's been at that poverty level before.

But in s3, she's put her faith in TPTB, and become demonized in order to continue to help. That makes the mission extremely important to her, because as you said, she's investe in it more than she ever was before.

And everyone forgets by the end of Provider, she tells Angel they earned that money and gives the go ahead to collect it up from the floor and take it with them. Then in that beautiful ending scene, she's thinking of ways to spend the money as they fall asleep on Angel's bed.

So yes, Cordelia likes to feel needed, and maybe takes pride in being needed, but I don't think it had anything to do with hubris.
If you aren't necessarily needed for most of your life, it's a nice feeling when you are.

Sorry, jumbled thoughts but I hope I made sense.

Sorry, jumbled thoughts but I hope I made sense.
It makes perfect sense. It is what I would have written if I had the time. Thank you for laying it all out so neatly! :)

Well said! It actually wasn't until the next season that the writers ~~completely lost their minds~~ screwed up Cory. And in their defense she was possessed by a demon at that point!

I do like how they handled Cordelia coming back to visit in season 5. She was recognizably Cordelia once again.

in their defense she was possessed by a demon at that point!
Exactly. It's like blaming Fred for what Illyria's doing.

(Can't say that I love the Pod!Cordy storyline, but they were obviously despairing of what to do with her. As a sleeper agent at least she had a purpose.)

It makes me sick that they are turning her into a goody two shoes when she never was one, especially since it doesn't suit her at all.

Translation: "I hate character development!"

You can't even say it's a surprise: Cordelia's been more and more about self-sacrifice and devotion to the mission, more so as every season goes by. This is the woman who willingly risked social death to help Buffy and co; who accepted the visions, and hid the fact they were killing her from her friends; the one who renounced the fairy-tale dream of being a princess in Pylea. She may still have a practical side; she might even still have a desire to be in the spotlight; but saying her behaviour here is out of character is IMO very wrong.

And of course, Jasmine's ruthlessly exploiting and manipulating her newly-expressed compassion and selflessness...

Translation: "I hate character development!"
Bwahahahaha! How dare the writers change her from a shallow bitch into something better? *g*

saying her behaviour here is out of character is IMO very wrong
::nods:: It just annoys me how people throw opinions aroundas though they were facts: Cordelia was turned into a saint, S7 was only about all the Potentials... ah well.

And of course, Jasmine's ruthlessly exploiting and manipulating her newly-expressed compassion and selflessness...
It's *so* well done - I have a huge post coming up on this subject...

Bwahahahaha! How dare the writers change her from a shallow bitch into something better? *g*

"Better" is clearly very, very subjective. IMO, they removed the very things I liked about Cordy and turned her into someone I couldn't stand at all.

Character development is all very well (it certainly worked for Wesley), but different people are going to enjoy different types of characters, and so it's hardly surprising that a lot of us fell out of love with Cordy when she stopped being the person we loved.

it's hardly surprising that a lot of us fell out of love with Cordy when she stopped being the person we loved.
Not at all - and people who disliked Old Cordy often love the new one. The main problem is that the writers quite simply didn't really know what to do with her, and it shows. I think I like her story more in theory than in actual execution.

I think that's a spot-on reading of her.

Thanks! :)

I always found Cordelia's character development very believable. Can even (if I grit my teeth and try to ignore all the stuff I hated that they did with her in season 4) see what happened to her with Jasmine as a result of a touch of hubris on her part, just as Skip said. Why on earth should she think she'd qualified to become a higher power etc?

On the other hand, I agree entirely with Stormwreath. People who inveigh against the changes in her character in season 3 are either crazy Bangel 'shippers, who are invested in having her not change because then Angel couldn't possibly fall in love with her or people who wanted the Scoobies to stay at High School forever and never change.

Eh, dear! Hadn't realised I was still so bitter.

Jasmine exploited her *superbly* well (there is a post forthcoming), but I honestly can't get too bothered about Pod!Cordy - Pod!Cordy and Real!Cordy are like Illyira and Fred: Two completely entities.

people who wanted the Scoobies to stay at High School forever and never change.
Which I guess in many cases includes the Bangel shippers... To be honest I quite like the tragedy of C/A - the ship that never happened.

Me too. It's sad, because she was so very good for him.

Poor them...

I don't see anything OOC or bad writing with Cordelia becoming a better person, developing into a 'saint' woman. Hee! But I do like early Cordelia more. She was amazing as the bitch with a good heart. Loved her when she was dating Xander, loved her when she first started working for Angel, but when somehow she and Angel started feeling for each other, I lost interest in her. I think it's more because I loved her friendship with Angel, valued it a lot. And the fact that they became two people in love just ruined what I liked about them.

I do like early Cordelia more.
Early Cordy is definitely a lot of fun - just like Evil!Spike! :)

the fact that they became two people in love just ruined what I liked about them.
You know I'm not sure they were in love. I think they loved each other - deeply - but I'm not sure they were actually ever *in* love. The thing about C/A though, is that it never actually happened. Every time they were almost there it got snatched away. (Go read 3rd Wheel Monologue by

frimfram - it might make you change your mind. If nothing else it's a fantastic fic!)

To me, it happened, just not at the same time or even around each other. Angel's having convos with Lorne about her, with Fred about her, having dreams and imagining something more, and all the while she's lalala ::dying from the visions:: and then when she got to the point where she realized what she felt was more than friendship, she ran into Skip on the way to Point Dume.

God, I hate Joss sometimes.

But the last scene in YW shows there was something very real, very adult and very special there. Washer at the Ford by

lostakasha. Dude, read it.

To me, it happened, just not at the same time or even around each other.
Ah yes - how you described it! And Joss *is* a bastard, 'tis a proven fact.h
And thanks for the rec - will run over there asap. (Which means tomorrow - hopefully!)

To me that indicated that something was VeryWrong with Cordy, which makes sense in retrospect, at least in my own little theory world, in which the "demonization" Cordy experienced in the previous episode was actually essence de Jasmine. It's not really Cordy at this point, at least not completely.

It's not really Cordy at this point, at least not completely.
That's quite a good point - she's been crammed full of demon-y goodness...

Oh! Also, I forgot that AOQ was still doing his reviews. I guess mbangel10 stopped posting the links. Do you know the best way to access them? Cause that usenet group or whatever looked a little messy to me.

You might like to follow through the Angel group - a lot less cluttered than the BtVS one, which is very full of pointless stuff. If you've got a news reader you can use that, although I'm not clear on how that works.

Oh, OK. Thanks!

My pleasure. :)

I collected the links to all his reviews here

Oooh thank you! Have put it in my memories! :)

Thanks, but actually, I was referring to the Angel reviews season 3 on. I think I will just follow the link that

elisi provided.

I saw a lot of parallels between Cordy and Buffy's journeys - both are reluctant heroes who hate their mission in the beginning then accept it and get transformed by it.

I saw a lot of parallels between Cordy and Buffy's journeys
Yes, me too. And of course Cordelia started out as mirror!Buffy.

I also think that Cordy is not a saint, but grow up as a better woman. Her change is totally belivable to me, but then again the authors play a lot with the whole "hybris"-thing. In fact, when she goes in heaven she makes the most terrible mistake in her life.
About the fandom, I "met" crazy bangel shippers who think that everything Cordelia does is pure egocentrism, even when she saves Angel from the visions; and I also met Buffy haters who write about saint!Cordy vs slut!Buffy.
I hate them both. ._.

Mmmm, I don't understand that attitude. If you have to put someone down in order to feel good about your own ship, then really you should think very carefully about what you're doing. Cordy was Cordy, and the writers did screw up at various points, but that's hardly the character's fault. Plus, Angel needed someone to hit him over the head. :)

Absolutely! Angel is like the Doctor, he really needs a companion to put him down, to give him some human prospective. This is basically Cordy's job in the first seasons and Spike's job in the fifth.
I still believe that what Buffy did to him was important, crucial. She was like a "nurse" to a damaged Angel.

Ps: your icon is so cute! XD

Absolutely! Angel is like the Doctor, he really needs a companion to put him down, to give him some human prospective. This is basically Cordy's job in the first seasons and Spike's job in the fifth.
So much word!

I still believe that what Buffy did to him was important, crucial. She was like a "nurse" to a damaged Angel.
Buffy was Rose. :)

And Puppet!Angel is the cutest thing ever. <3

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