elisi | Get It Done.

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episode thoughts

Get It Done.

This is a great episode and I love it.

*waits for de-friending*

Heh. This was another one I hadn't actually watched for years - and I was very pleasantly surprised! It's a taut, well written episode, that continually pushes things further. And every time you think it's done, it ups the ante yet again.

It begins with Buffy's dream: Potentials everywhere, The First Slayer. "It's Not Enough!"

Then, in a very nice bit of co-ordination, we have Buffy showing Principal Wood what she's working with, what constitutes 'not enough': A load of potentials who are really only scared children, a formerly evil geek, a scary powerful witch who only admits to 'dabbling' and a legendary (dark) warrior who fights like a vimpire. Buffy is not doing well and she knows it.

And then comes Chloe's suicide.

This is obviously the last straw for Buffy ("I'm the one with the power. And the First has me using that power to dig our graves!") She can just about protect all these people from physical harm, but she can't protect them from despair. That's their own battle and not one Buffy can fight for them. But she knows it can be won - she knows what it's like to be told at 16 that you're going to die. She knows what it's like look on death as the comfy alternative. She's been there and done that. Buffy's speech is harsh, but she has some *very* good points:

The First isn't impressed. It already knows us. It knows what we can do, and it's laughing. You want to surprise the enemy? Surprise yourselves. Force yourself to do what can't be done, or else we are not an army—we're just a bunch of girls waiting to be picked off and buried.

You know what it reminds me of? The argument in 'The Yoko Factor':

Buffy: No! No, you said you wanted to go. So let's go! All of us. We'll walk into that cave with you two attacking me and the funny drunk drooling on my shoe! Hey! Hey, maybe that's the secret way of killing Adam?! Is that it? Is that how you can help? You're not answering me! How can you possibly help? So . . . I guess I'm starting to understand why there's no ancient prophecy about a Chosen One . . and her friends.

The thing is, now they can help. They are powerful, but they're not using their power. See this episode ties in directly with 'Help' - what do you do when you know you can't help? Buffy doesn't have an answer (yet), but she knows that giving up is definitely the wrong answer. Cassie gave up - and it nearly got her butchered.

This is what Buffy said in 'Bring On The Night':

From now on, we won't just face our worst fears, we will seek them out. We will find them, and cut out their hearts one by one, until The First shows itself for what it really is.

Now she forces Willow and Spike to face their worst fears, as she jumps through the portal towards goodness knows what.

About Spike... oh I love his scenes. He's been trying so very hard to keep his demon at bay, to be Angel Mark II, and now Buffy tells him that what she wants is Spike! That's a bitter pill to swallow. But - I think it's actually very helpful in getting Spike to become a balanced person. Remember this bit from 'Guise Will Be Guise' when Angel talks to the fake swami:

Magev: “Fight!"
Angel: "I am fighting!"
Magev: "Yourself. You're fighting yourself. Fight me! Why are you holding back? Why can't you let go?"
Angel: "Because."
Magev: "Why?"
Angel over their locked staffs: "If I let it, it'll kill you."
Magev: "It?"
Angel disengages and steps back: "The demon."
Magev: "Ha! But the demon is you!"
Angel: "No."
Magev: "Yes! That's the thing you spend so much energy trying to conceal!"
Angel shakes his head: "No, I just - I can't let it control me."
Magev nods: "Ah. I see. (Hits Angel's knee hard then hooks the staff behind his legs to drop him onto his back) You *don't* think it controls you?"

Spike has the same fear. But Buffy pushes him, and he dares to let go of the control, to *be* the demon that tried to kill Buffy when they first met:

SPIKE: Sod off! (laughs) Come on. When was the last time you unleashed it? All out fight in a mob, back against the wall, nothing but fists and fangs? Don't you ever get tired of fights you know you're going to win?
ANGELUS: No. A real kill. A good kill. It takes pure artistry. Without that, we're just animals.

As Spike becomes all fists and fangs in his fight with the demon, he lets out a howl, just like back in 'Doomed' when he discovered that the chip would let him fight demons:

That's right. I'm back. And I'm a BLOODY ANIMAL! Yeah!

Of course at the same time, Buffy is refusing to become less human in return for more powers, telling the Shadowmen that they're 'out of line'. And later wondering if maybe she was wrong...

I love the ending. The shot of all the Uber-vamps gives me goosebumps in the best possible way. What an episode.

Not nice. Not sweet. It doesn't pull it's punches and I love it because of that. I might even forgive Mr Petrie for AYW...

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I thought the shadow puppets were very nice and creepy, and I remember being happy to see the back of wimpy!Spike (except, not), but I recall being appalled at Buffy's thoughtlessness (telling Spike she needs him evil again? Please to see my stories Dangerous and Backward Glances for how I think that should have gone.)

That's the problem I have with it--Buffy pushes Spike and Willow to use their power at any cost. Yes, they do need to be at the top of their form, and it may be that Buffy has complete confidence that both of them can control that power - but she never tells either of them that. And doesn't really seem to care if they can handle it or not. In Willow's case, she can't handle it; luckily Kennedy can handle having life energy (or whatever) ripped out of her, but there's no guarantee that this will always be the case. (One of the big flaws in the season for me is that we never really see Willow learning that control.)

And then at the same time, Buffy refuses power at a cost which seems too high. And since we're never shown what would happen if she accepted the Shadow Men's offer--that the cost for her would have been--we don't really know if she bargained well or not.

All of which is fine. It's certainly not the first time Buffy's played the "do as I say, not as I do" card. But I'm not sure we are supposed to see her as hypocritical or making questionable decisions here, because it never comes up again. It just feeds into the "Buffy is right because she's Buffy, not because she's actually making good decisions" theme of the season, and we, like the Potentials, are just supposed to blindly accept her decisions lest rocks fall and we all die.

And then at the same time, Buffy refuses power at a cost which seems too high. And since we're never shown what would happen if she accepted the Shadow Men's offer--that the cost for her would have been--we don't really know if she bargained well or not.

I tend to think not. And it pissed me off that she wasn't willing to make the sacrifice of her personal wishes/fears, but she expected Spike and Willow to do so.

Also, the whole "I AM the law" tone - never repudiated during the season - rubbed me the very wrongest way. I would love to have seen her being taken to task for becoming the watcher heirarchy she was so opposed to in the beginning. (Not to mention that she was an idiot for not using slightly more up-to-date weaponry. I found myself more than once shrieking at the screen, "Molotov Cocktails, fucking google it, bitch!"

I tend to think not. And it pissed me off that she wasn't willing to make the sacrifice of her personal wishes/fears, but she expected Spike and Willow to do so.
Hmmmm. I don't see it quite that way. First of all, she jumped through the portal, not knowing if she could ever come back. That was a big risk.

Secondly, Willow and Spike are their powers. Willow has magic coming out of her ears - she just needs to control it better. Spike is a fantastic fighter, but he's been deliberately holding back. Buffy pushes them hard in this episode, and she admits as much at the end, but I can't fault her reasoning.

Third, Buffy has loads of power. Now she finds out how she got it - by something that comes disturbingly close to rape. She came to get knowledge, to maybe find out how to beat The First. What she gets is an attempt to cram more power into her, and then a vision of the army that lays in waiting. Which no Slayer could possibly defeat on her own.

Anyway, I must go and make tea (dinner) and stop writing! I sincerely hope what I wrote made sense.

In reverse order:

Bitch might not be so quick to assume Ubervamps are as flamable as vampvamps. It's sunlight does 'em in not fire.

I thought Empty Places pretty much showed her the limits of playing General. I assume that's what you mean.

Whether she was willing to tolerate becoming less human or not how would acquiring more personal power address the problem? Like First!Slayer said "It's not enough."

Buffy pushes Spike and Willow to use their power at any cost. [...] In Willow's case, she can't handle it; luckily Kennedy can handle having life energy (or whatever) ripped out of her, but there's no guarantee that this will always be the case. (One of the big flaws in the season for me is that we never really see Willow learning that control.)

I don't quite see it like that. Buffy shows a flash of frustration at Willow earlier ("a Wicca who won't-a") but doesn't really push her to use her magic here. It's the others who do that after Buffy's gone. (Which, incidentally, always struck me as odd: Buffy's only just gone through the portal and they're already trying to bring her back? Why not give her time to find out whatever she went for first?)

I don't think it's control Willow lacks. She's uncertain and feels out of her depth at first because she doesn't know what she's doing - which ties into her "only good in a crisis" personality. Once she actually starts casting the magic, I see it less as lack of control than of a ruthless over-focus on success, no matter the cost. As she explains next episode, she drained Kennedy's life force (and Anya's) because they apparently had the most to spare. It was deliberate, not uncontrolled. And it also sheds light on why Willow is now so reluctant to use magic: because she knows what kind of person it turns her into.

I think it's highly significant that Willow's big redemption moment in the show's finale is when she uses mega-powerful magic to empower other people, instead of benefiting herself.

less as lack of control than of a ruthless over-focus on success, no matter the cost.

Possibly...but throughout the season, Willow's presented as being unable to use magic without risking going veiny, which seems like a control issue to me. (And her discussion with Xander over Tara's grave is about control, not about ruthlessness.)

I think Willow used magic to benefit others all through the season. Indeed, I can't think of any times in S7 she used it purely for her own benefit, though I could be forgetting one. That's one lesson I think they showed her learning.

Control/ruthlessness isn't necessarily an either/or dichotomy though. Willow's presented as being afraid of going all veiny but what actually happens when she uses the big magic in GiD is the uncontrolled ruthlessness

stormwreath described. So if she's honest it's not the idea of some alien power taking her over that she's afraid of but that power brings out the darker aspects of her personality. In Chosen she learns that power can also be drawn from/bring out her better side and instead of drawing more power to herself she lets herself act as a conduit to release other people's.

Apparently my reply was too long, so I've had to split it into two parts. :)

All of which is fine. It's certainly not the first time Buffy's played the "do as I say, not as I do" card. But I'm not sure we are supposed to see her as hypocritical or making questionable decisions here, because it never comes up again. It just feeds into the "Buffy is right because she's Buffy, not because she's actually making good decisions" theme of the season, and we, like the Potentials, are just supposed to blindly accept her decisions lest rocks fall and we all die.

I disagree: I think we are meant to see Buffy's actions here as, if not wrong as such, definitely the product of extreme stress and trauma. After all, she's just found a dead girl hanging in her spare bedroom! She's embarked on the course of behavoour that will eventually lead to her being kicked out of her own house.

(And while she's pushing Spike and the others to take more risks, note that she didn't hesitate to jump right through that portal herself.)

For what it's worth, this is my schematic of what's going on in the second half of season 7:

1) Buffy gets worn down by stress and responsibility, and the belief (encouraged by Giles and Wood) that she has to act like a military commander: heirarchical and authoritarian, and sealing herself off emotionally from those she leads. She becomes harsh and demanding, even thought it doesn't come naturally to her, because she feels she has to.

2) In the end this drives her 'army' - and even her friends - to revolt against her leadership.

3) However, exposed to the fight without Buffy's leadership the Potentials learn that things aren't as simple as they assumed, and things can still go wrong without her there. Meanwhile, with Spike's help Buffy learns to trust herself again and recognise her real strengths.

4) She uses these in the fight against Caleb: not by opposing him strength to strength, but by using his own strength against him until he lays himself open, reveals his secrets and gives her the decisive weapon she can use against him.

5) Returning to her friends, Buffy tries out her new style of leadership: inclusive, not authoritarian; sharing instead of controlling. And giving her followers a choice instead of telling them what to do. (Notice the title of the last episode? The old Slayer line was chosen by outside manipulators; these girls made the choice themselves. And yes, I'm assuming (fanwank alert!) that Willow's spell only affected willing participants...)

Episodes like 'Get It Done' are setting up the first part of the story, gradually creating a rift between Buffy and the others. Of course, it's also very consciously a feminist analysis of power and leadership, setting Giles, Wood and the Shadowmen (and Caleb) up against Buffy & co; and she has to work out her own new style of leadership that doesn't fall into the traps that nearly caught her in these episodes.

I knew it was a great idea to get you onto LJ! :) Thanks for your comments. And re. this:

the belief (encouraged by Giles and Wood) that she has to act like a military commander: heirarchical and authoritarian, and sealing herself off emotionally from those she leads. She becomes harsh and demanding, even thought it doesn't come naturally to her, because she feels she has to.

I think that Giles' lecture at the end of 'First Date' probably influences Buffy a lot in GiD. It really does all hang together very well.

I knew it was a great idea to get you onto LJ! :)

Hee. You might not think so after I've wittered on long enough...

Incidentally, I bought 'Lost in Space' over the weekend thanks to your recommendation. Still not sure about vidding to it (I've got enough ideas planned out in my head to last about five years at my usual rate of vid creation) but I'm enjoying listening to it.

You might not think so after I've wittered on long enough...
I've just realised that it is my 2 year LJ anniversary today. When I started I was worried I'd have nothing to say. Now I can look back on... [checks user info] 732 posts and 10000+ comments. Wittering is the name of the game! :)

Still not sure about vidding to it
Please don't worry about it - I just love throwing ideas out there in case someone picks up on them. But I'm very glad you're enjoying the album. :)

And yes, I'm assuming (fanwank alert!) that Willow's spell only affected willing participants...)

Ah, see, I don't think one can make that assumption at all. If nothing else, I think the existence of Dana argues against it.

Most of my problems with the season boil down to the fact that while I can usually see what the writers are trying to do, they usually don't do it in a way that works for me. I'm no longer willing to fanwank that hard.

Ah, see, I don't think one can make that assumption at all. If nothing else, I think the existence of Dana argues against it.

it is my fanwank that the spell affected those who on Buffy's question "here is where you make a choice - are you ready to be strong?" answered "yes". Even if they were not. Even if they knew nothing about the whole thing.

and Dana wanted to be strong - it is a recurring motiv in her babblings "not weak anymore", etc. So, in this sense her becoming a Slayer argues for that, not against. She made the choice Buffy asked everyone to make, even though she wasn't in her right mind.

telling Spike she needs him evil again?
She's not telling him to be evil, but to be as good a fighter as when he was evil. But if he can't do that - if he can't stop holding back then he's no use to her in her fight. She doesn't have time for sweet romance a la Angel ("Fine. Take a cell phone. That way, if I need someone to get weepy or whaled on, I can call you." that line always sounded suspiciously like Angel's role in S2...). It's no longer about what she wants, it's about what she needs. Spike understands perfectly what she's saying.

And that's exactly why he doesn't believe she loves him, later on. I think it's at that point that he becomes convinced that she wants him around only for what he can do for her, not for who he is.

that's exactly why he doesn't believe she loves him, later on.

Hmmm, seems a bit rash. After all he'd never been discouraged before:

SPIKE: So we had a fight. Not our first, love. It doesn't have to change anything-
BUFFY: This changes everything. You're out, Spike. I want you out of this town. I want you off this planet. You don't ever come near me, my friends and family again. Ever - understand?
SPIKE: No. It's not that easy. We have something, Buffy. It's not pretty, but it's real.

'Get It Done' comes right after 'First Date' where Buffy tells Spike explicitly that she's not just keeping him around because she needs a fighter. What she does in GiD is say that since he is there, he'd better shape up. And she doesn't pull any punches, does she? She's not in the least worried about hurting his feelings - because she knows that he understands her. Their argument is one of the Spuffiest scenes ever - everyone else in the room might just as well not exist. And it's got nothing to do with feelings - it's obvious that Buffy has feelings for Spike, but she's stepping back from everything, cutting herself off again because she thinks she has to, to do her job. Did she stop loving Angel when she had to kill him? Of course not - feelings are not something you can control. The thing with GiD is that a girl just killed herself. Buffy is obviously deeply affected by this and it influences everything.

The other thing - that I'd never thought of before - is that Buffy makes it very clear that Spike is 100% a part of the team, something that only happened briefly at the end of S5, and then not again. Spike has always been the outsider, and he still sees himself as such before Buffy stops him, telling him that what she said to the others applies to him as well. This is a big thing if you consider it.

About the love thing... then I don't think that Spike maybe not believing Buffy has much to do with anything. As Giles says in First Date "I want more for you." This is probably also Spike's attitude - at least over time. Just like Angel said in 'The Prom':

Buffy: "I want my life to be with you!"
Angel: "I don't."

To quote

the_royal_anna since she has already said this so beautifully:

One of my favourite books in the world is EM Forster’s 'Where Angels Fear to Tread'. Its central character is, ultimately, redeemed through the woman he loves. And his character grows because of two things - because of his love for her, and because of his recognition of the truth – that she doesn't love him in return. But Spike has to go one whole level higher than that. Because, in loving Buffy, he has become the very best person he can be, and he, too, recognises the truth – but this is harder, so much harder – because the truth is that she does love him. And he knows that to acknowledge it would be selfish.

Hmmm, seems a bit rash. After all he'd never been discouraged before:

Err...that was two years previously. Before Buffy used him for self-hating sex, before he tried to rape her, before he got a soul, and learned to hate himself as the evil, disgusting thing Buffy saw him as. Buffy's now told him she believes he can be a good man, and I don't want to diminish the importance of that--for Spike, that's huge. But it's not a declaration of love.

I'm never quite sure how we can say that Spike's ability to change and adapt is one of his strongest points, and then turn around and say that on this one thing, no, Spike never changes or adapts.

And I think we've had the rest of this conversation before--I don't think reading that scene as Spike throwing Buffy's incredibly difficult admission of love back in her face in some lie 'for her own good,' makes it romantic or noble. It just means he's treating her like someone too immature and foolish to know her own mind.

It just means he's treating her like someone too immature and foolish to know her own mind.

Isn't that exactly what he's doing if he refuses to believe what she flat out tells him?

As for GiD being a reason not to believe in the possibility of love it makes Spike out to be a bit of a Victorian weenie if he thinks being told she could use him in the big fight precludes being in love with him.

You can interpret it that way if you like. I prefer to think that both of them are speaking the truth as they see it--that's about the only gift they can give to one another at that point. They just see different truths. Their last moment together is as fraught with miscommunication and lost chances as the rest of their relationship. Which is sad, but that's Joss for you.

I don't have anything against people who see it as some grand romantic moment. I rather wish I could see it that way. But I can't. I would have liked it better if Spike could have accepted her statement. But he didn't. Oh, well. Life's tough.

And GID's just one in a very long list of reasons why I think Spike really didn't believe Buffy loved him. Whether Spike was right in that belief is an entirely different question.

Err...that was two years previously.
Well exactly. He barely knew her then. He's spent the time in between knowing her more intimately that he'd ever thought possible. There is a certain element of 'You always hurt the one you love' in all of this, and I don't believe that Spike can't see that. They always understood each other, even way back in S2, and I can't see how years worth of knowledge and understanding can translate into them knowing each other less.

on this one thing, no, Spike never changes or adapts.
I'm not sure how much I like the word 'change' in this instance, since it infers changing into something else, like alchemy. Spike's changes are more like refinement, becoming more himself, growing. F.ex. I like the new Doctor Who very much. That is a change, but it doesn't change the love I have for BtVS one bit. If anything, it enhances how much I *do* love Buffy.

I think we've had the rest of this conversation before
Yes, we have deja'd this vu... so I'll rec you this little ficlet, that explains better than many an essay what the scene says to me. To me it's all about emotions - and I know what I feel when I watch:

Forget-me-not.

He's spent the time in between knowing her more intimately that he'd ever thought possible.

And that process couldn't possibly make him think he'd been mistaken? Spike's convinced all through S6 that Buffy will love him if only he does this, that, or the other thing, culminating in trying to rape her and then getting a soul.

Getting a soul made Spike understand all the reasons Buffy couldn't or wouldn't love him in S8. Buffy flat out tells Spike in NLM that he doesn't understand her or even himself. (And if you do take those cut lines where Spike's explaining that she likes men who hurt her as canon, then I'd say that she's right; he doesn't understand her at all.) Spike tells Buffy that he knows she's not keeping him alive because of love and Buffy doesn't contradict him. While that doesn't necessarily mean Buffy doesn't love him (Buffy may not understand herself as well as she thinks she does, either) it's just one more reason Spike has not to be blithely confident that Buffy loves him and all is well.

I know what I feel when I watch:

Well, there's the thing. What I feel is irrelevant to what the characters may be feeling. I want Buffy and Spike to love each other and know that the other loves them. But we don't always get what we want. Or even what we need.

And if you do take those cut lines where Spike's explaining that she likes men who hurt her as canon, then I'd say that she's right; he doesn't understand her at all
You mean these (which are on screen):

SPIKE: You like men who hurt you.
BUFFY: No.
SPIKE: You need the pain we cause you. You need the hate. You need it to do your job, to be the slayer.
BUFFY: No. I don't hate like that. Not you, or myself. Not anymore.

It ties in with their earlier conversation:

SPIKE: I'm feeling honest with myself. You used me.
BUFFY: Yes.
SPIKE: You told me that, of course. I never understood it though. Not until now. You hated yourself, and you took it out on me.
BUFFY: You figured that out just now?
SPIKE: Soul's not all about moonbeams and pennywhistles, luv. It's about self-loathing. I get it. Had to travel 'round the world, but I understand you now. I understand the violence inside.

She doesn't deny that she was in a bad place the year before or that Spike understands how she felt then. But she's moved past that now.

I'm not saying that he walks around in S7 singing "She loves me, she loves me!" to himself. It's a process, and I can't point my finger on an exact moment when Buffy starts loving him. The thing with Buffy is that she's not all that good with words - it's her actions you have to follow. And her actions say a lot in S7 when it comes to Spike.

What I feel is irrelevant to what the characters may be feeling.
Hmmm. I feel we are using the same words, but speaking different languages. When I watch something that's really well done (as BtVS mostly is), I get pulled into that world. I feel what the characters are feeling, I experience things with them - which is f.ex. why I still find it hard to understand that people came to hate Buffy after the alley-beating - I watch that scene and my heart bleeds for her because she's hurting so very badly.

Emotions always come first, analysis second - unless its something I don't like (when I'll distance myself and watch from a purely critical POV), or the characters don't work, in which case not even the best story can rescue it.

Interesting! I love the way you tie episodes, some of them far apart in the show, together.

Although, shallow me, I kinda think she wanted evil!Spike back because he was HOTTER.

I love tying stuff together - and S7 is wonderfully coherent in that way. The themes are carried through extremely well!

she wanted evil!Spike back because he was HOTTER.
I think every female fan just went *guh* when he put his duster on again... ::points to icon::

Actually quite a lot of them were convinced that the coat (and the smoking) were a horrible sign that Spike was going to slide into evil again. Not a view I agreed with at the time, but I can see why they might have thought so.

I'm not saying that I love or even like this episode, but I understand Buffy. I didn't like her lack of sensitivity towards her friends and the potentials, also calling a dead girl by idiot. These girls are scared 15 year old Buffy in LA, teenage Buffy who tried to run away from her responsibilities. If anyone would understand what they're going through it's only Buffy.

But I still understand her attitude. She's frustrated, she wants everybody to do beyond their power, she wants to beat The First. She feels that she's the only one working hard, while the others aren't, especially her biggest guns: Spike who still struggles with his new soul, and Willow who doesn't want to risk losing herself to darkness again.

The best bit in the episode was that Xander was the only one who asked to wait for Spike, that he might bring the demon back. Xander showing more faith in Spike's abilities than Buffy or anyone else, so spanderly cute.

She feels that she's the only one working hard, while the others aren't, especially her biggest guns
That's it - and it ties in directly with 'Bring on the Night' and Giles' "You're the only one who can do this!" Poor girl.

so spanderly cute.
I'll trust your word!

I loved this episode even when it initially aired. Hell, I loved it when the spoilers broke, so no defriending here. And I agree with stormwreath above in saying that it's Buffy's leap through the portal that should be paralleled with Willow and Spike's actions in the episode. The notion that allowing the demon essence to violate her body would be equivalent to Buffy asking Spike to stop being a wimp has just never worked for me. To me, that'd be more equivalent with Buffy asking Spike to get rid of his soul again. I love this episode for exploring the issues that the three lead characters are dealing with. It's incredibly dense and A LOT happens. I also remember feeling like the Buffy/Spike fight was strangely one of the shippiest moments of their entire relationship...there was an odd kind of intimacy there, they know where to hit each other and the rest of the room is just...gone, while they're verbally attacking each other.

Most of the people I know who hate this episode tend to hate it because it taints the Slayer origin and they don't like knowing that Buffy's power comes from being metaphorically raped. On the one hand, I can get that, but OTOH, I thought the overtones of that history had been there since Ep. 1 and that there was nothing shocking about finding out that rather than beauteous power of light, the Slayer power originated from something much uglier. I mean, dude, it's right there in the name, "Slayer"...obviously not meant to be something particularly lovely.

it taints the Slayer origin and they don't like knowing that Buffy's power comes from being metaphorically raped.

I like the episode for the same reason: it adds a lot of depth and complexity to the metaphor. (Unless you're 3DMaster, I suppose...)(in-joke for atbvs people...).

Yes, the origin of the Slayer line was dark and demonic and abusive - but that doesn't mean that the Slayer power itself is tainted, any more than a child conceived through rape is itself to blame for that. "It's not about right, it's not about wrong; it's about power." What you do with that power is far more important than where it came from.

On a meta level, BtVS is the story of a teenage girl growing into a woman. Adulthood brings power, and the Slayer energy can be seen as a metaphor for that power. What the Shadowmen did was force the First Slayer into an adult's role before she was emotionally ready: the parallel is child sex abuse rather than 'just' rape. Or alternatively, I was reminded of the child soldiers in places like Sierra Leone and Congo, given guns that are almost as big as they are and sent to fight in the grown-ups' wars without understanding why. (Disturbingly, this is also what Buffy is currently attempting to do with the Potentials - mistakenly, as I pointed out in my comment above.)

However, adulthood and everything that goes with it - including the sex and violence - are not bad things in themelves. Quite the opposite - as long as you have an adult's understanding and maturity to go along with the role. I thought it was hugely significant that the Shadowmen wanted to give Buffy power, and instead she insisted on being given knowledge instead.

In that moment, she became an adult.

Hell, I loved it when the spoilers broke, so no defriending here.
Yay! :)

The notion that allowing the demon essence to violate her body would be equivalent to Buffy asking Spike to stop being a wimp has just never worked for me.
Me neither - it's portrayed so completely differently as well. Spike is reclaiming a part of himself - Buffy is refusing to be used, literally.

It's incredibly dense and A LOT happens.
Dense! That's the word I was looking for.

I also remember feeling like the Buffy/Spike fight was strangely one of the shippiest moments of their entire relationship.
Mummy and daddy fighting in front of the children...

I thought the overtones of that history had been there since Ep. 1
::nods:: And it began to be almost explicit from S5 onwards. (Dracula describing her power as rooted in darkness f.ex. It makes a lot of sense.)

I like this episode, too... I have always thought that it does an amazing job of showcasing Buffy in a very bad place, and showcasing everybody else's pulled punches. I was always amazed that no-one said anything untilt he Survivor-style vote-out. it's almost like she was in Giles' place in OMwF, doing all kinds of over-the-top things in her frustration, trying to get people to spark just a little. Not that I intend to justify either one of their actions... More like your paralells make me notice paralells. :)

it does an amazing job of showcasing Buffy in a very bad place, and showcasing everybody else's pulled punches.
Exactly. If I want happy la-la land I can watch 'Friends' - with Buffy I want something deeper (and sometimes uglier).

it's almost like she was in Giles' place in OMwF
Oh that's a beautiful parallel. And unlike Giles she gets results!

She can just about protect all these people from physical harm, but she can't protect them from despair. That's their own battle and not one Buffy can fight for them. But she knows it can be won - she knows what it's like to be told at 16 that you're going to die. She knows what it's like look on death as the comfy alternative. She's been there and done that.
Excellent point! And I also think that she really doesn't know what's going to happen if both Willow and Spike unleash themselves; it could be a good thing, and fortunately was, but it would also have ended badly for both of them and then she might have to be The Law again. But the thing is, with Buffy, that not trying is much worse than simply sitting around no matter the ultimate consequences.
And yeah, this episode totally sets up the upcoming rebellion of the rank and file.

with Buffy, that not trying is much worse than simply sitting around no matter the ultimate consequences.
Yes. Giving up is the ultimate sin, as we saw in WOTW - she gave up for an instant and felt as though she'd killed Dawn.

I had nothing but sympathy for Buffy in GID. My reaction was always very visceral so I may come over a little strong, but I always thought Buffy was right. Plainly speaking, everyone had either told or looked at Buffy to be their leader, lead the way, save the day, but she was supposed to turn around and take care not to hurt their feelings or make them feel like they were left out of the decision making process. It's like they wanted it both ways. I've always felt all she was doing was tell the truth when she ripped into them. She can't be both their war leader and their emotional center - it's not fair to ask that of a girl who's barely twenty one years old, and has already died to save the world only to be dragged back into it.

Sorry. These are scattered thoughts, and probably don't tie into each other so well but again, my reactions are emotional, not intellectual.

She can't be both their war leader and their emotional center
::nods vigorously:: Giles in particular sets the parameters (his speech at the end of 'First Date' f.ex.) but leaves it to Buffy to reinforce them.

I've always felt all she was doing was tell the truth when she ripped into them.
Yes. It's harsh, but that's the situation - Chloe just killed herself! You can literally see Buffy turning the grief into anger. Buffy has always pushed herself, but now she needs the others to do it too - she can't win alone, and there's no chance if they're not giving 100%.

I had nothing but sympathy for Buffy in GID.
Me neither. She is so alone, it hurts. As she says at the end: "I was hard on you guys today." Separating herself again from the rest.

my reactions are emotional, not intellectual.
So are mine! I can go back and look at it analytically, but my primary reaction is always all about the emotions. (Which is why things such as 'Spike stopped believeing Buffy could ever love him because she said she wanted him to fight better' make no sense to me. It ignores where Buffy is at, and how attuned to her Spike is. *pets OTP*)

I agree it's a much better episode on second viewing. A lot of these season 7 eps are (with the exception of TKiM, I think, which is just a mess - and I can't stand Caleb so he buggers up the last 5 for me).

I honestly can't remember what my reaction was the first time round, but as usual I am incredibly grateful for not having found fandom until after I finished watching the series. Not that fandom isn't one of the most fabuluos things ever, but when I watched I quite simply enjoyed the show and didn't analyse. :)

TKiM was surprisingly OK - and I'm just getting to Caleb, so it'll be interesting to see how I like him this time round.

Argh, sorry about that first comment, I don't know where all that extra cut and paste came from! To repost:

I hadn't realized this was such a disliked episode? I always enjoyed it for the Slayer lore and also the great parallels between Spike and Buffy in it.

Now she forces Willow and Spike to face their worst fears, as she jumps through the portal towards goodness knows what.

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that. This was really one of my biggest beefs with S7 as a whole is that the First could have been used more effectively for this.

I like what you point out about that Tish Magev scene on Angel. I always liked that a lot, it was the higlight of that episode for me, perhaps because I always found the Angel character a bit difficult to understand.

I hadn't realized this was such a disliked episode?
'OMG Buffy is a heartless bitch! Warg!' Or something like... I love it for the same reasons you do - although if you want to expand on the parallels between Buffy and Spike I'd be very happy. :)

the First could have been used more effectively for this.
Well what The First does is make people doubt themselves. Buffy tried to make people believe.

it was the higlight of that episode for me
Me too! Because Angel is incredibly clam-like and doesn't talk about himself if he can help it. "Why does a vampire drive a convertible?" Oh it's wonderful stuff indeed!

The other side of that is that Angel has always seen himself as above others (humans). There's the conversation with Spike in FFL talking about killing being art, and there's also this bit in 'Dear Boy':

Darla: "Kind of trite, I know. What do you expect? They're only human."
Angel smiles at her: "You better embrace that mediocrity, honey. You're talking about your own kind now."

Which is why Pylea comes as such a shock - underneath it all, a vampire is just an animal and Angel really, really doesn't cope well with that. It's why he doesn't think he can ever face his friends again.

I seem to have run off on a tangent there, but I really do love Angel in all his flawed glory!

Ahh, ok. Well, yes, Buffy was definitely all about the tough love in S7 but then she and Spike rarely pulled verbal punhes with one another.

Which is why Pylea comes as such a shock - underneath it all, a vampire is just an animal and Angel really, really doesn't cope well with that.

Funny you should bring that up, we're currently moving through AtS S3 so saw the Pylea arc recently. I was pointing out that pool reflection scene to Mike. The first one where Angel is grinning at himself, Mike was seeing as just another example of his vanity such as with the mirror in the throne room. But it seemed to me emblematic of not just the vanity, but more his delight in seeing himself as he wanted to be seen, not as, what he knew was the evil within him, but rather the image of this appealing human. Of course later the scene is paralleled when he is the Angelbeast and his fears about his true face are revealed, something which horrifies even him.

although if you want to expand on the parallels between Buffy and Spike I'd be very happy

I'm trying to remember if I actually posted about this before, though I know I've talked about it to someone. It had to do with the inverse of Spike and Buffy finding their power in this episode. Buffy as is fairly clear, discovers the origins of Slayer power come from the Shadowmen harnessing a demon spirit and infusing it into a girl. Although she rejects it, it seems to me this is a somewhat pro-forma issue, she already contains it and as we already learned in "Helpless" she has no real wish to give it up. It seems what she's striving for there is balance, to keep her humanity from being overwhelmed by the demon essence.

On the other hand Spike is a demon who's recently had an infusion of human spirit, but he's been struggling to deny the demon side. When she forces him to start reintegrating it, he does so symbolically be redonning his coat, the mantle (or perhaps borrowed power) of the Slayer. So between the two of them there is something of a full circle there. A girl given the power of a demon, a demon given the power of a girl.

I find the juxtaposition interesting as well, as we cut from the demon trying to enter Buffy to Spike unearthing and whipping the coat on.

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