Blah blah Bangel, blah blah Spuffy...

[elisi]

This is my way of avoiding complaining about having a cold and children being awkward...

In AOQ's 'Never Leave Me' post, I left a comment focussing on the whole 'I love you' Vs 'I believe in you', that I mentioned the other day, ending with this bit:

Spike in essence asks the same question, and Buffy comes out with a
resounding 'Yes'. He *is* worth saving. Not because of any feelings she
might have, but for his own sake. The look on his face is amazing.

And I love that. To me, that's more important that a world full of 'I
love you's, and it's one of the reasons Spike/Buffy is so much more
satisfying to me than Buffy/Angel. Don't get me wrong, B/A is a great
story, in all its doomed glory, but take away the love and what's left?

Someone else replied to my comment with quite a few good thoughts, but then went on to say this:

But to answer your question, take the love out of Buffy/Angel and what
you have is Buffy/Spike.

Not surprisingly, this nearly made my brain implode. Here is my response, re-posted mostly for my own convenience, although feel free to read (unless of course you feel bored to tears by this subject, which wouldn't be surprising).

No. No no no. If you take away the love from Buffy/Angel, you barely
have a relationship at all. See B/A happened because the two if them
fell in love. This is the normal way for people to start a
relationship, and if he hadn't been a vampire, and she hadn't been a
Slayer, they might have ended up married in the suburbs. But... what if
they hadn't fallen in love? The reason Angel hung around Buffy was
because he loved her, not because they had any shared interests - as a
matter of fact he has great difficulty understanding her, but makes the
effort because he loves her. She rarely knows what goes on in his head,
but tries to find out, if she can, because she loves him. Everything
these two do stems from the love they have for each other. Yes he comes
to Sunnydale to help fight evil, but he was sent there by The Powers.
Until S2 he just turns up, delivers a warning and leaves again. When
The Powers wanted him elsewhere he'd have moved.

Now Spike and Buffy started out as opponents. And they were well
matched, because they right from the start understood each other
extremely well. Just look at how quickly they negotiate their terms in
'Becoming' - they've worked each other out pretty well already then.
'Lovers Walk' shows this even clearer:

Buffy: Need him? He's probably just got them locked up in the factory.
(she knows exactly how he thinks, and is already ahead.)

Buffy: And I can fool Giles, and I can fool my friends, but I can't
fool myself. Or Spike, for some reason.
(He's got her number, and she knows it.)

The love that eventually appears in S5 (on Spike's side only of course)
comes from their 'relationship' (speaking not romantically, but meaning
all their interactions). They have a connection - one so strong that
Dru can see it:

Drusilla: But you're lying! I can still see her floating all around
you, laughing. Why? Why won't you push her away?

And it isn't romance and it isn't love... it's something deeper I
think. As SMG put it in an interview way back in S5:

Sarah Michelle Gellar: "There's a part of me that will always believe
that Angel was Buffy's true love. That there will be a piece of her
heart that will always be with him for the rest of her life. It
doesn't mean that's the person that she's meant to be with
eternally. The thing about Buffy and Spike is they understand each
other on a level that nobody else understands her. They've both lived
a hundred lives and I think there's a connection there that we will
see evolve over the next couple of years where she realizes that he
really is someone that she can trust, someone that's a companion to
her and someone that really understands her unlike anybody else."

To me B/S is interesting because the drama comes from the characters,
not from outside sources. Take outside influences away from B/A and you
have IWRY with all-day-in-bed eating ice cream etc. It's sweet, but not
very exciting to watch. Do the same with B/S and you have 'Something
Blue', with plenty of fun and bickering. Differences create good
sparks.

Just a final thought, now I'm posting: There are a lot of discussions about whether Spike believed Buffy's 'I love you' in Chosen, but in one sense it doesn't matter. Her attachment to him goes much deeper than that ("That's not why I need you here").


And now I'm going to go to bed. *yawns*

Oh and pardon bad grammar etc. I know it jumps between past and present like a frog on a pogo stick.

Comments

[missy7280.livejournal.com]

I really liked your final thought. I totally agree with that. Ultimately Buffy's feelings for Spike went deeper than love, hense why even "I love you" is not sufficient and is not over-used. Umm... did that make sense?

[elisi]

I really liked your final thought..
Thank you - and you even have the icon to match! :)

Ultimately Buffy's feelings for Spike went deeper than love
It always makes me think of the song 'More than words'.

[shadowscast.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to let you know I read this and I like your thoughts!

I'm glad you're thinking and writing about these things. :)

[elisi]

Thank you. :)

And honestly I can't help myself in when it comes to the thinking and writing... it's automatic.

[gillo]

I think you've hit it perfectly. For me Bangel is static, while Spuffy is dynamic - endless variety, endless progression. (And endless Hot!James, mustn't forget that of course.)

[elisi]

For me Bangel is static, while Spuffy is dynamic - endless variety, endless progression.
::nods:: My favourite quote that illustrates this is by the_royal_anna:

All I can say is when I think of some of the key scenes each of them share, I think of them this way.

When I think of Buffy and Angel, they are always standing opposite one another, face-to-face. They are looking only at each other, caught in the moment, still, timeless, static.

When I think of Buffy and Spike, most often they are side by side. I think of the back doorstep in Fool For Love, in Flooded, the moment he sits down beside her in Touched, the night he holds her while she lies awake in Chosen.

That says it all for me.

[gillo]

Absolutely precisely. Or they are "dancing" - moving in synchrony with each other, whether fighting, dancing, fighting others, snogging - it's all about interacting.

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

To me B/S is interesting because the drama comes from the characters,
not from outside sources. Take outside influences away from B/A and you
have IWRY with all-day-in-bed eating ice cream etc. It's sweet, but not
very exciting to watch. Do the same with B/S and you have 'Something
Blue', with plenty of fun and bickering. Differences create good
sparks.
Yes, yes and yes.

[elisi]

Yes, yes and yes.
:D

[timeofchange.livejournal.com]

I always enjoy your thoughts on BtVS, and not just because I totally agree with you! You put into words my jumbled, incoherent thoughts, and you bring me new insights. Every time I read your meta, I remember again why I love the show and the writing and the characters so very much.

[elisi]

You put into words my jumbled, incoherent thoughts, and you bring me new insights
Considering the fact that my posts often seem jumbled and incoherent to me, that's nice to hear. :)

I remember again why I love the show
Me too. :)

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

I've always loved that quote by SMG, which everyone seems to forget when they insist that she's a B/A shipper. :-)

And I totally agree, the reason I love S/B is that the conflicts in their relationship come from character, rather than circumstance. And that is so much more interesting to me.

[elisi]

which everyone seems to forget when they insist that she's a B/A shipper. :-)
Ah yes, it' rather... inconvenient for them. ;)

that is so much more interesting to me.
Me too. I'd be stuck if I had to write B/A.

[spuffyduds.livejournal.com]

Huzzah for your brain!

[elisi]

Heh. I can't help it I'm afraid...

[thesuthernangel.livejournal.com]

I don't think I could say it any better. Good job!

[elisi]

Thanks! :)

[shapinglight]

I agree with you of course. Give me Spuffy any day.

[elisi]

Give me Spuffy any day.
Or Spangel for that matter... it's all about the history and the sparkage. :)

[bearfacedcheek.livejournal.com]

Read this and got a flash of instant inspiration for a seasonal spuffy drabble.
Got quite excited for a moment then, could hardly get word opened fast enough to write the slippery little fella down.

[elisi]

I *love* it when that happens! And I'm honoured to have been your inspiration. *bows* ;)

[calturner.livejournal.com]

I love your brain! :D I don't think I really need to tell you that I completely agree with you, do I? ;)

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Oh, absolutely! It's like, my thoughts = your words.

I've often wondered whether a relationship based on love, such as B/A could withstand something like S6. Somehow, I can't imagine Angel being able to handle Buffy, who he practically put on a pedestal as his salvation, acting the way she did throughout the season. I think he would be disillusioned, at least. (Although perhaps not. I'm still working my way through watching Angel, where he seems to have actually sprouted a personality).

I think it's also valuable to look at their relationship in terms of how they were written. Angel was written with the express purpose of being Buffy's love interest. Their romance was scripted. On BtVS, Angel had little character of his own and only existed to love Buffy.

OTOH, Spike existed independently from Buffy. He was introduced as an antagonist and had his own fully-formed character that then, years later, entered into a romance with Buffy.

Personally, I find the latter much more interesting. It's unpredictable, realistic, and exciting.

And this became tl;dr. Thanks for linking me to this (From the comment on the other post you linked me to ;) ). Mind if I friend you?

[elisi]

Oh, absolutely! It's like, my thoughts = your words.
I know the feeling! :)

I've often wondered whether a relationship based on love, such as B/A could withstand something like S6. Somehow, I can't imagine Angel being able to handle Buffy, who he practically put on a pedestal as his salvation, acting the way she did throughout the season. I think he would be disillusioned, at least.
I... might have sort-of written fic exploring that. (It all started because of a stupid promise to re-write 'As You Were' to include S/B/A threesome sex and... well the B/A stuff took me by surprise. But then Angel has been though a lot himself by then. How far are you in your AtS watch?)

Although perhaps not. I'm still working my way through watching Angel, where he seems to have actually sprouted a personality
*laughs* I adore Angel, and he is one of my favourite characters *ever*, but it is mostly because of his own show.

On BtVS, Angel had little character of his own and only existed to love Buffy.
Yes. And we see in IWRY that he will never be happy being nothing more than 'the mission's boyfriend' - he has a *need* to be a hero in his own right. Buffy helped set him on that path, and he can't go back to being nothing more than a sidekick.

OTOH, Spike existed independently from Buffy. He was introduced as an antagonist and had his own fully-formed character that then, years later, entered into a romance with Buffy.
Nothing to add, you echo my thoughts.

Personally, I find the latter much more interesting. It's unpredictable, realistic, and exciting.
Same here. All this time, and I still adore them together.

And this became tl;dr.
Rambliness is encouraged and applauded in this LJ! (As you will see if you decide to browse my meta/fic. I tend to go on at great length on any subjects that interest me.)

Mind if I friend you?
Friend away! I love getting to know new people! :) I'm afraid I'm rather absent at the moment, and not terribly chatty about the Buffy verse, but then I have that much stuff already written that I might be pretty much talked out... (meta-wise. Not fic-wise. Oh no. There are still plotbunnies aplenty eating my brain.)

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

How far are you in your AtS watch?

Almost through S3. I'm actually posting my reactions as I watch it on my LJ. :)

*laughs* I adore Angel, and he is one of my favourite characters *ever*, but it is mostly because of his own show.

Uh...I adore making fun of Angel...eh, honestly I'm not a fan of the guy. I thought he was a dumb character on Buffy (That's why I held off so long on watching his show). Now that I'm watching Angel, I'll agree that he's more interesting than a plank of wood, but I'm fairly neutral on him. Except when he's acting like a doofus. Then that's just funny.

Er, yeah, Buffy made me biased against Angel. I don't think I'm ever gonna get over that. Ah well.

And consider yourself friended. I'll probably go through your meta when I have a chance. :) And, besides, I'm not exclusive to Buffy. I watch Doctor Who. I gave up on Torchwood after the first season, though (I did watch Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang just to see James Marsters, but that's it).

[elisi]

Almost through S3. I'm actually posting my reactions as I watch it on my LJ. :)
Might have to friend you back - I love reading first-time viewers' thoughts. :)

Now that I'm watching Angel, I'll agree that he's more interesting than a plank of wood, but I'm fairly neutral on him. Except when he's acting like a doofus. Then that's just funny.
Angel being 12 is never not funny. But I do love him to tiny itty bitty pieces. Wait and see - you might still grow to love him.

I'll probably go through your meta when I have a chance. :)
Should keep you occupied for *quite* a while if you get round to it...

I watch Doctor Who.
*cheers*

I gave up on Torchwood after the first season, though (I did watch Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang just to see James Marsters, but that's it).
Oh no! You can't do that. S2 is *lightyears* better than S1. Seriously. S1 should come with some sort of disclaimer, or warning - something along the lines of 'Yes this is horribly depressing and v. often uses a sledgehammer, BUT if you stick with it you will be rewarded with fun and awesomeness in S2!' (OK, so S2 has its moment of stupidity, and plotholes that are large enough to drive trucks through, but... it turned me from casual viewer to obsessive. Also, Jack! And Ianto. And Jack and Ianto together. And Tosh and Owen and Gwen and Rhys and Andy and the pteradactyl and weevils and angst and sex and character stuff that's BRILLIANT!)

OK, shutting up now. I just love Torchwood, possibly *because* it's just a bit... over the top and ridiculous.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Feel free to friend back. Mine's a purely BtVS journal. Just episode reviews, me watching Angel, some fics, and the occasional provocative meta that nobody else posts about anymore (Joys of being new to the fandom).

Torchwood...lol. By the end of S1, I *hated* all the characters and wanted them all to die horrible, painful deaths. Even Jack, who I had loved on DW. Sorry, but S1 was just awful. A cyberwomen in a metal bikini with high heels? An apocalypse pulled out of their ass for the finale? Oh, man, it took itself way too seriously, too.

I have the first couple episodes of S2 downloaded on my comp, but I haven't felt compelled to watch beyond the first one. I may change my mind at some point. It's just hard when I don't like any of the characters.

[elisi]

Mine's a purely BtVS journal. Just episode reviews, me watching Angel, some fics, and the occasional provocative meta that nobody else posts about anymore (Joys of being new to the fandom).
Sounds pretty irresistible...

By the end of S1, I *hated* all the characters and wanted them all to die horrible, painful deaths.
Really? I don't think I *cared* enough to hate. ::tries to remember:: Mostly, I was annoyed at the wasted potential - the writers seemed to think that 'adult' translated to 'angst, sex and death', rather than darkness, sexiness & depth. But I loved the Jack/Ianto thing. The stopwatch scene was undoubtedly the highlight of the season for me, partly because it was so opaque and subtle.

A cyberwomen in a metal bikini with high heels?
I *detested* that episode. Now... well I've read so much fic, and S2 has redeemed the show so much, that I'm actually looking forward to re-watching it. :) (Yes the costume is STUPID! But the trick with TW is to focus on the character stuff, and ignore anything stupid.)

An apocalypse pulled out of their ass for the finale?
I KNOW! I cannot take that giant demon seriously, no matter how much I try. Also, the little old guy was stolen straight off Buffy.

I may change my mind at some point.
You should probably finish Angel first! :)

It's just hard when I don't like any of the characters.
Well they are all a lot more likeable in S2, I can guarantee you that. *pets them all*

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Mostly, I was annoyed at the wasted potential - the writers seemed to think that 'adult' translated to 'angst, sex and death', rather than darkness, sexiness & depth.

Very well-put.

Once I finish Angel up, I might give S2 of Torchwood a try. I have heard that it improves from S1, but I've still been reluctant to take the time. Can't hurt, though. :)

[elisi]

Very well-put.
Thank you. :) And it grows up & fulfills quite a lot of potential in S2. Keeps a fair amount of Teh Crazy, but I don't think I'd really want it any other way. I mean with Captain Jack as the central character...

But - enjoy Angel. I shall probably be commenting a fair bit on your posts. :)

PS. You might want to stay away from any of my meta until you've finished AtS btw (not that I think you're going to throw yourself at it, but just in case...) - I tend to use examples/parallels/etc from all over the two 'verses, and I don't want to spoil you!