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buffy has taken over my brain

is tired

Hey, LJ changed the layout thing - I knew they were going to, but it's just a little odd. Don't mind, I think it'll make things easier.

Sorry I'm so absent. Partly life is omg busy and partly my internet is really, seriously wonky. If this gets posted when it's written it'll be a miracle!

And to make this post have a point, here's a snippet from the shooting script of 'Him', that got cut. Which is a shame, because it is very interesting:

DAWN
(sincere)
No. I'm trying to understand. I
mean, nothing makes sense. First you
say Spike disgusts you but, secretly,
you two are doing it like bunnies.
And Spike says he'd die for you, but
he tries to rape you.
(then/hesitant)
And I'm even trying to understand
that. A little. The rape part.

BUFFY
He didn't. I mean, he tried-

DAWN
Not that. I just... You guys had
sex a lot, right? It's not like you
were strangers. Weren't you ever...
(hard to say)
... being kind of rough with each
other?
(off Buffy's look)
Anya said some stuff-

BUFFY
I really should've killed her. Dawn,
it was complicated. But I'd broken
it off with him. I didn't want to
anymore.

DAWN
(gets it)
Oh. Oh... That must have been...
(then)
I'm sorry. I'm sorry for even asking.

BUFFY
It's okay. I get the question. I've
asked it myself a few times.
(then)
For the record? Spike knew how wrong
it was. That's why he went away.

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We were there with Spike and Buffy so we know what it was like.

But these lines would be interesting to hear for what they say about Anya and Dawn. Imagine the conversation where Anya expresses cynicism about Xander and Buffy's accounts of the bathroom scene and what that would send spinning through Dawn's head. Doubtless with graphic descriptions of more than the spanking we already know Xanya did.

Plus, I bet SMG would do a great job with the line, "I really should've killed her."

On the other hand Dawn with even a slightly more sympathetic attitude toward Spike would make it harder when they never reconciled. And it's necessary they never reconcile so that we can have twenty-two more episodes of Spike on Angel.

Imagine the conversation where Anya expresses cynicism about Xander and Buffy's accounts of the bathroom scene
Hmmmm, now I'm almost pleased that line didn't make it on screen! ;) And I don't think Xander ever said more than what we saw in 'Villains' (which was bad enough of course), and I doubt Buffy would go round reviling Spike's name. She was willing to let him watch Dawn after all, and never de-invited him.

S7 is interesting actually, because Buffy has just slotted Spike in amongst her other ex-boyfriends:

BUFFY: Again, wrong sister. I'm the one that dates dead guys. And, no offense, but they were hotties.

I think the AR was a bigger deal for the fans than for Buffy - just like the alley beating was a bigger deal for the fans than for Spike.

And it's necessary they never reconcile so that we can have twenty-two more episodes of Spike on Angel.
Huh? The writers have admitted that they wish they'd done a scene with Spike and Dawn making up, and they had hoped to use her in TGiQ, but I hardly see how their relationship was pivotal. If anything unfinished business would have been a reason for Spike to *leave* LA.

Actually, I personally think that Spike and Dawn did reconcile a bit - completely offscreen, and completely fanwanked, but I read a lot into the scene in "Lies My Parents Told Me," where Spike and Dawn express concern about each other.

Wishes, wishes.

Yeah I'm sure it happened. There's nothing to say it didn't! :)

I don't think Xander ever said more

No, but Dawn probably wanted to discuss it with someone and Buffy and Willow and Xander weren't going to do it, so it's either Anya or her peers.

writers have admitted that they wish they'd done a scene with Spike and Dawn

Writers will tell you anything they think you want to hear.

If Spike and Dawn had really become friends again, wouldn't it be inexcusably awful for him to conceal his reanimation from her? As it was, he really didn't have any reason to hope or expect that she wanted to know whether he was back on the Earth.

Dawn probably wanted to discuss it with someone
Well I think Buffy would have talked a bit, if Dawn asked. They're very open at the beginning of S7, so it's entirely possible. I'm just wondering when exactly she would have talked to Anya... maybe they realised the folly of this and that's why they cut the lines.

wouldn't it be inexcusably awful for him to conceal his reanimation from her?
Not worse than Buffy, no. And yes he and Dawn had a good thing going back at the end of S5, early S6, but it fell by the wayside when Buffy was brought back. Their friendship was lovely, but always secondary to Spike's relationship with Buffy.

I keep telling myself I'm going to read all the scripts and still they sit. Interesting find.

I'm just wondering when exactly she would have talked to Anya... maybe they realised the folly of this and that's why they cut the lines.

In S6 Dawn was working off her shoplifting at the Magic Shop so maybe during the summer she was helping Anya clean up? There was certainly a lot of it to be done.

I keep telling myself I'm going to read all the scripts and still they sit.
I tend to look stuff up if I'm discussing an episode, or I'm trying to find out more about a scene (notes for the actors, cut lines etc). The only one I've read through the whole way is 'Chosen'.

maybe during the summer she was helping Anya clean up?
Possibly...

Well I think Buffy would have talked a bit, if Dawn asked. They're very open at the beginning of S7

Agreed. Though see the response above about Dawn and Anya.

inexcusably awful for him to conceal...Not worse than Buffy, no

Really? I think I disagree.

I can see myself giving a friend advice to do exactly what Spike did. Though I can't imagine following such advice. I suppose there's a difference in that I can give advice to do something that is in the best interests of a friend without concern for how it affects others but in my own acts I have an obligation to take other people into account.

I have a hard time, on the other hand, imagining suggesting to anyone to do what is implied in this discussion between Spike and Dawn. [Context, Owen, context!]

I'm trying to work out exactly what you mean, but as far as I remember you think that if they parted on bad terms he'd be less likely to contact her?

See I see it the other way round. If they parted on good terms, then things are good. Finished. But if they hadn't made up, then that would be unfinished business, and something he'd want to make up for. So he'd be more likely to call.

But that's just my perspective. ;)

...here's a snippet from the shooting script of 'Him', that got cut. Which is a shame, because it is very interesting:

Too right, it's a shame and yes, it's very interesting indeed. Interesting that they went so far as to write dialog that considers what role the nature of S & B's previous sexual relationship may have played in Spike's sexual assault on Buffy. It certainly makes sense that Dawn (or Willow or even Anya for that matter), at some point would have tried, albeit it ever so cautiously, to broach the subject with Buffy. Of course, I would have had the conversation go even further; include Dawn confess to Buffy that she'd gone to his crypt earlier that day, found him drunk and despondent, and questioned him about his liason with Anya and his feelings for Buffy. I'd like to have heard her tell Buffy how she'd told him that he'd really hurt her (Buffy).

In the end, what counts is that Buffy had said no and meant it. But apart from the fact that from a characterization standpoint it would have been only natural for the subject to have come up, ME did the audience an injustice by electing to withhold almost all discussion of the context surrounding such a pivotal and inflammatory event.

I'd like to have heard her tell Buffy how she'd told him that he'd really hurt her (Buffy).
Ah yes, Dawn the catalyst. Although what she did *was* important, and not just because it set up the AR. Before then (since the end of AYW), Spike had been feeling sorry for himself, and half-wondering if it was possible to get Buffy back. Suddenly he understands that now he has something to be sorry for.

ME did the audience an injustice by electing to withhold almost all discussion of the context surrounding such a pivotal and inflammatory event.
Hmmmm, yes and no. The subject comes up quite a few times in early S7 episdoes, but (after the end of Beneath You) it's more in a 'well it happened, and hopefully sometime soon we can just forget about it'. Because Spike has his soul now, and what he did unsouled (evil) gets swept away, more or less, just like with Angel or Willow or Anya (Selfless - Buffy goes to kill her. Next episode, she tells her they're still friends). None of them can afford to hold grudges, because they've all screwed up.

I think it's something that is far more important to the fans than to the characters (like the alley beating). Post S6 Buffy quite simply slots Spike into her list of ex-boyfriends and that's that. :)

I have got to run so this is going to be a piss-poor response - but while I agree that as we got into S7 character attitudes largely shifted to viewing Spike much as Angelus/Angel, they did and they didn't. Or they did, but with a difference. The difference being that while with Angel, ME was fine about presenting him being physical with Buffy, they shyed away from letting Spike and Buffy so much as even kiss because of what Spike had done before he'd gotten back his soul. This isn't a matter of me complaining that we didn't get to see Spike and Buffy get together physically in S7 - I appreciated the slow rebuilding of their relationship as one of trust, respect and affection (although by the end there it would have seemed natural to me for their sleeping together to advance to at least some smooching). But nothing. What bothers me still to this day is Joss/ME's staunch contention in interviews - in commentary - that they knew they couldn't have Buffy and Spike get back together because it would be wrong and send the wrong message blah blah blah. This view - this decision - contradicts the whole sweeping the bad done without a soul under the rug thing, and goes against the established mythology of the show. If they'd had the backbone to adhere to the show's mythology, even if they still never showed B&S going further than a cuddle and kiss if that much, then an important part of preparing the way to come back from the AR would have been for them to have shown the characters to have had some discussion of the the greater context of that incident and that that it was the catalyst for Spike's soul quest.

This isn't very coherent but I've got to get ready to go to work. Sorry.

Don't worry about being coherent, I understood it perfectly (seldom coherent myself...) and yes, I get what you're saying. It irks me a little, but having almost finished watching S3, I can honestly say that I prefer the way they handled Buffy/Spike to Buffy/Angel. A real kiss would have been nice, but if I have to choose between kisses & cuddles, and emotional honesty & true understanding - then I'll always choose the latter.

And we can always kick the writers if we ever get close enough... *g*

A real kiss would have been nice, but if I have to choose between kisses & cuddles, and emotional honesty & true understanding - then I'll always choose the latter.

Me too - emotional honesty & true understanding trump kisses & cuddles any time. But they're not mutually exclusive either, nor were the lack there-of my main bitch - just an aside.

My main bitch isn't that they never showed Spike & Buffy kiss in S7, but WHY they didn't. It was their illogical (in terms of the BtVSverse established mythology and order) assertion of the Luke & Laura wrongness of them ever having a physical relationship again - which to me was nothing short of a cowardly betrayal of the rules of their own game and the fans that had learned to follow the rules and to consider and judge what happens in that 'verse according to the internal logic and rules of that 'verse. In this instance, Joss/ME abandoned their own playbook and imposed RW standards on characters and circumstances that have no RW equivalent. The (anti)Luke & Laura standards only would have applied if the AR had involved two humans or if the vampire aggressor had been ensouled at the time. Does that make sense?

I've always had a very hard time explaining this...And what made it worse for me - the added insult to the injury - was the unspoken message I took from Joss' concession to the Spuffy block of his audience - the ambiguity that they took such pains to thread throughout S7, most notably with the fade to black final night and the ambiguous I love you/denial scenes in Chosen, to try to have something for everyone while alienating no one (a difficult balance to achieve that rarely works well). I mean, I appreciate the the difficulty they faced in trying to satisfy everybody, but seeing and hearing Joss declare outright that S&B ever having a physical relationship would be wrong and that they didn't want to send the wrong message, but at the same time they knew they had a lot of fans that regardless, still really wanted that to happen anyway, and they had to ~~toss us some crumbs ~~give us something. Well, by implication, he was calling us morally bankrupt. At the very least, he's definitely disparaging our moral standards.~~~~

Oops - forgot to close the strike-out command. Meant:

~~toss us some crumbs~~ give us something. Well, by implication, he was calling us morally bankrupt. At the very least, he's definitely disparaging our moral standards.

but WHY they didn't.
Oh I get that. And yes I understand where you're coming from, but I just adamently look at the positive side of things! ;)

Also I'm currently arguing with someone on AOQ's 'Him' thread, who had this to say about the Buffy/Dawn scene discussing the AR:

And here we have one of the show's worst moments ever - Dawn comparing
Xander's leaving Anya at the altar with Spike's attempted rape of
Buffy, as if there were some equivalency between the two actions. This
is the kind of thing I'd expect to see from crazy Spike
fangirls/fanboys on the internet. To see it from the actual writers of
the show was pretty much the biggest WTF moment ever for me on Buffy.

And in this very same scene, we also have Buffy at least partially
excusing Spike trying to rape her because he "knew how wrong it was."

I remember thinking back when I first saw this that we were going to be
in for a hell of a lot of Spike canonization this season, often at the
expense of the other characters. I really hoped I was wrong about
that....

There are some weird people out there, who apparently can't even understand what they see on screen...

Anya said some stuff-

I think this line implies the Spuffy relationship rather than the AR. I can't possibly believe anyone would tell Anya about the AR. Not Buffy obviously, nor Dawn, and Xander barely spoke to Anya as he said in Beneath You. So I guess it's the relationship. But even so, why was Dawn talking to Anya? I never really thought they were close. Actually, of the whole Scooby Gang, Anya was close to Xander only and to some extent Giles and Tara.

All of which goes to show that it was probably for the best that the line was cut!

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