elisi | Brief thoughts on Joss

The bigger issue is "The Media" using this to make feminists look like crazy people. I think that is why Joss tried to make it clear he wasn't leaving because fans were saying anything or even "feminist attacks" but that he knew he needed to leave for work reasons. Though prior to Twitter, most of his online fan interaction was through Whedonesque which is relatively troll free space.

The other issue is that I think people are reacting to Black Widow out of the context of the story. I didn't even blink when I saw the scene, it all made sense in service of the story, her character, and her relationship with Hulk/Banner.

But I'm also avoiding Googling anything because I'm sure there will be a slew of crazy people hating on all the things because that is how it is and the internet seems to go from awesome to awful in 1.21 seconds.

The bigger issue is "The Media" using this to make feminists look like crazy people.
Yes, sadly. :(

I think that is why Joss tried to make it clear he wasn't leaving because fans were saying anything or even "feminist attacks" but that he knew he needed to leave for work reasons.
Yeah, that was v. nice of him. (And Moffat said the same thing when he left Twitter.)

Though prior to Twitter, most of his online fan interaction was through Whedonesque which is relatively troll free space.
Because the mods ban every dissenting voice. (There are icons. Which I have spent best part of half an hour to find. I'll get back to you.)

The other issue is that I think people are reacting to Black Widow out of the context of the story. I didn't even blink when I saw the scene, it all made sense in service of the story, her character, and her relationship with Hulk/Banner.
Oh I'm sure. I know Joss said that originally he'd put lots more background story in the film, but it was way too long, so he had to cut loads. (The answer to all of this is: Give Natasha her own movie!!!)

But I'm also avoiding Googling anything because I'm sure there will be a slew of crazy people hating on all the things because that is how it is and the internet seems to go from awesome to awful in 1.21 seconds.
Yeah, this is just stuff that's popped up on my Tumblr dashboard, and I generally stay away from the drama... (I know Tumblr is 95% drama, but I still try to stay away.)

Haven't seen it either, but I'm looking forward to it. People I know and trust have said BW's arc and characterization is plenty good. I do not agree that it diminishes a female character to have her fall in love with someone. All the male Avengers get booty, why can't she? A woman can be kick ass and in love/have sex at the same time.

OTOH, one of the best tweets I saw (second hand, I am not on Twitter) was definitely this one: Hey Joss, we see you. You don't get to call yourself a feminist just because you made 5 good seasons of Buffy 20 years ago.

I do disagree though. He can call himself whatever he wants. It does however open him up to criticism, some of which unfortunately is crazypants.

Haven't seen it either, but I'm looking forward to it. People I know and trust have said BW's arc and characterization is plenty good. I do not agree that it diminishes a female character to have her fall in love with someone. All the male Avengers get booty, why can't she? A woman can be kick ass and in love/have sex at the same time.
I was actually thinking of a separate issue, although yes, they complain about the love story too... And as I have no particular investment in the 'verse, I shall be enjoying the film I'm sure when I see it. :)

OTOH, one of the best tweets I saw (second hand, I am not on Twitter) was definitely this one: Hey Joss, we see you. You don't get to call yourself a feminist just because you made 5 good seasons of Buffy 20 years ago.
::snerk::

I do disagree though. He can call himself whatever he wants. It does however open him up to criticism, some of which unfortunately is crazypants.
Yeah, this. Fandom, sadly, far too often produces extreme reactions...

Right, apparently there was an issue with BW's speech to Hulk re why she was a monster. Since I haven't seen it, I can't comment on it.

Recently I did however hear there was also a rape joke. Which, not surprising given Joss' history. But if true, terribly disappointing. (Info from Lynne, actually who I very much trust.)

Right, apparently there was an issue with BW's speech to Hulk re why she was a monster. Since I haven't seen it, I can't comment on it.
Yeah, I haven't seen it either, so am not sure how it comes across, but I know people who are upset.

Recently I did however hear there was also a rape joke. Which, not surprising given Joss' history. But if true, terribly disappointing. (Info from Lynne, actually who I very much trust.)
Yes I remember something about that. Apparently it's a Latin pun...

I honestly didn't catch the joke, as it's somewhat obscure, but it's also baffling because the line wasn't in the previews. As he's trying to lift Thor's hammer, Tony Stark says something about reinstating the custom of prima nocta, or the right of a lord to have sex with/rape a peasant woman on her wedding night, before her new husband could sleep with her. In the previews, he said something about promising to be "fair but firmly cruel." That was at least a little bit funny. The line that made it into the film was just kind of gross.

I personally saw some hate posts and messages on Tumblr and I was disgusted by them. Why people who claim to be feminist go on bullying a person on Twitter? What's wrong with them?

That said, of course some criticism is on point. But I esp ecially think about the casting of Wanda Maximoff, tbh. Also Joss has his responsabilities, of course, but these kind of movies depend on so many people and surely they should be blamed too.

I still have to see the movie, but honestly I hoped for Natasha/Clint, mostly because it was hinted in the previous movies and I was hoping for more. Bruce/Natasha feels too much Angel/Buffy like to me.

I personally saw some hate posts and messages on Tumblr and I was disgusted by them. Why people who claim to be feminist go on bullying a person on Twitter? What's wrong with them?
Yeah, that I can't answer.

That said, of course some criticism is on point. But I esp ecially think about the casting of Wanda Maximoff, tbh. Also Joss has his responsabilities, of course, but these kind of movies depend on so many people and surely they should be blamed too.
::nods:: Good point.

I still have to see the movie, but honestly I hoped for Natasha/Clint, mostly because it was hinted in the previous movies and I was hoping for more. Bruce/Natasha feels too much Angel/Buffy like to me.
See I... barely know which is which. It's lovely not to care! ;)

Yeah, that's the thing -- if Natasha were not the Only Major Female Character, the stuff he does with her would be a lot less controversial. Maybe bringing in Scarlet Witch would help, except I get the impression that the 'old' Avengers are supposed to retire and leave future movies to the new ones, which leaves Wanda as The Only Major Female Character, and the same old problem.

The sensible complaints I've seen about her character arc, btw, are not that she falls in love (and you can bet half the people making THAT complaint are bitter because she fell in love with the wrong guy) but that a major conversation she has with Bruce is structured so that it sounds like she's saying she's a monster not because she's a trained assassin, but because she's infertile. Which, if accurate, is... super unfortunate.

Edited 2015-05-10 00:11 (UTC)

The issues are pretty much all in the execution. It's frustrating, because there were ways to do it well, or to write it in such a way that it wasn't hitting all the wrong notes, and yet.

Maybe bringing in Scarlet Witch would help, except I get the impression that the 'old' Avengers are supposed to retire and leave future movies to the new ones, which leaves Wanda as The Only Major Female Character, and the same old problem.
It's almost like comic books cater to boys...

but that a major conversation she has with Bruce is structured so that it sounds like she's saying she's a monster not because she's a trained assassin, but because she's infertile. Which, if accurate, is... super unfortunate.
Yes, that's the stuff I've seen going around. Apparently it makes sense in the context of her story & arc, etc, but I don't think the execution is brilliant. Like I said, I've not seen it, so I can't personally judge, but it doesn't sound great. (Incidentally, are there any male superheroes who are infertile? Is that even a thing? Ever?)

Part of it is just that the majority of superhero movies have been very male-centric. We haven't even had Wonder Woman yet.

And, I do agree, that there seems to be this slant in the media that women are there to be the love interest. It's a cultural thing. Not necessarily a good one, but fairly inevitable if they stay with the current types of stories that require there to be a romantic interest in all movies (regardless of what the movie is about)and because we are still using the cultural norms of a patriarchal society, regardless of any changes we've undergone in the past few decades of female emancipation.

(It is, honestly, one of the reasons I hate the inclusion of the Doctor romances and emphasis on Companion romances in New Who. Doctor Who used to be, largely, the one place I could go to see stories where the characters weren't defined by their romantic relationships.)

In the first Avengers movie was that out of all the heroes in the show, it was only the woman who didn't have any superpowers. Which I thought was funny. Because she was kickass anyway.

I will say, that I did always love Whedon's Firefly and his variety of women in that show. I thought that was a very well balanced and great mix of characters. Not characters separated out as the "women" and the "men" but simply great characters all around, each one unique and individual to themselves. Even their relationships were all different. It felt like there was nothing "cookie cutter" about his characters.

As for being on Twitter. If I was a famous person I wouldn't be on Twitter either. It just seems a formula for gaining abuse. Simply from the fact that you are opening yourself up to such a huge audience, there's always bound to be some who take advantage and misbehave.

Just for my own sanity, as a person who is "known" to millions of people. I wouldn't think it was safe, or especially sane, to leave yourself open to that type of backlash.

Plus, honestly, who has time to read or respond to millions of Tweets? It's literally impossible.

Better to use his time more constructively.

Part of it is just that the majority of superhero movies have been very male-centric. We haven't even had Wonder Woman yet.
And they've been talking about it for how long?

And, I do agree, that there seems to be this slant in the media that women are there to be the love interest. It's a cultural thing.
I believe you are right.

(It is, honestly, one of the reasons I hate the inclusion of the Doctor romances and emphasis on Companion romances in New Who. Doctor Who used to be, largely, the one place I could go to see stories where the characters weren't defined by their romantic relationships.)
And now all I can hear is Donna saying she'll have none of that nonsense! <3

In the first Avengers movie was that out of all the heroes in the show, it was only the woman who didn't have any superpowers. Which I thought was funny. Because she was kickass anyway.
Apparently she does have superpowers of some sort in the comics, but they've not mentioned them in the movies, so WHO KNOWS? Certainly, she is amazing.

I will say, that I did always love Whedon's Firefly and his variety of women in that show. I thought that was a very well balanced and great mix of characters. Not characters separated out as the "women" and the "men" but simply great characters all around, each one unique and individual to themselves. Even their relationships were all different. It felt like there was nothing "cookie cutter" about his characters.
Firefly is one of the only shows where I remembered every character (and their names!) after watching the pilot.

As for being on Twitter. If I was a famous person I wouldn't be on Twitter either. It just seems a formula for gaining abuse. Simply from the fact that you are opening yourself up to such a huge audience, there's always bound to be some who take advantage and misbehave.
Totally. And it steals time as you note below.

I don't even go here, but I'm glad Joss clarified things about his Twitter exit -- and acknowledged that whatever h8 he was receiving isn't anywhere near as bad as what female activists get on the regular (which is a point people like to raise as to why death threats are Not That Bad when they're directed at white dudes -- or something).

Anyway, I think Joss is in a weird place insofar as he's called himself a feminist, ergo people expect all his work to be sufficiently progressive, whether or not he means for the work in particular to have a feminist agenda. BtVS claims to be a feminist work, and should therefore be open to feminist criticism. AFAIK, The Avengers claims no such thing. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be criticised. It should, just as every piece of media should. But should we have higher expectations for a Joss thing just because he personally thinks of himself as a feminist (and then get twice as mad when he disappoints)?? I'll judge him just as harshly as I do every other artist, no less or more.

maybe it comes down to the problem of having One Person Represent A Whole Gender...

Also this.

I don't even go here, but I'm glad Joss clarified things about his Twitter exit
Yes, it's nice for him to actually say it straight. Not that people will listen, but...

AFAIK, The Avengers claims no such thing. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be criticised. It should, just as every piece of media should. But should we have higher expectations for a Joss thing just because he personally thinks of himself as a feminist (and then get twice as mad when he disappoints)?? I'll judge him just as harshly as I do every other artist, no less or more.
I think if someone calls themselves a feminist, it can be presumed that they know at least something of what they're talking about, and should be aware of problematic issues. And yet...

So, speaking for only myself, my major problem with Natasha's characterization wasn't her relationship with Bruce (who remains my favorite). It was the context, and you can't get away from context.

Meaning that, she has been one of the few female characters in the Marvel Cinematic Universe who was not related to the universe by her relationship to a man. Not that she was in Age of Ultron, mind you, but I liked that she didn't seem to care if she was in a romantic relationship in the second Captain America movie. I thought that was important. Also, whether Joss meant it that way or not, her line about being a monster following closely on the heels of her revelation that she was forcibly sterilized... Well, it was ooky. As an infertile woman, I will admit I might be overly sensitive, but when she makes that confession and then asks, "Who's the monster now?" when what she did as an assassin takes second place to having her ability to have children curtailed? That sucked. It really sucked. And I'm still not entirely over it.

It's sad, but I kept looking for the like button.

The way the conversation was framed was appalling. While I doubt that was the intended take away from the conversation, the writing was done so sloppily as to make that reading difficult to avoid, especially if you had any personal experience with it.

I think that's it exactly. Even if it wasn't meant that way, our culture often talks about women who choose not to have children, or who can't have children, as fundamentally lacking. So, while the scene may not have been intended to read that way, just about everyone I've seen talking about this who is in my boat feels pretty awful about the scene.

The one thing I'm grateful for in this mess is that there has been so much discussion around this. My best friend has been struggling with infertility and has made a point to be public and open about her experiences, to promote awareness, but it's so ingrained as something We Don't Talk About, I can see her getting worn down by all the push back and the silencing. I am glad to see this as a debate popping up all over, because I've seen it spark other conversations, and I can't help but hope it might give her...idk, a little breathing room.

I think there is something to be said for the conversation that's been started, and I do appreciate that.

So, speaking for only myself, my major problem with Natasha's characterization wasn't her relationship with Bruce (who remains my favorite). It was the context, and you can't get away from context.
This.

Well, it was ooky. As an infertile woman, I will admit I might be overly sensitive, but when she makes that confession and then asks, "Who's the monster now?" when what she did as an assassin takes second place to having her ability to have children curtailed? That sucked. It really sucked. And I'm still not entirely over it.
I read your post! And yeah, from what I've picked up from other places as well, it just seems majorly badly handled. It's not an easy topic to begin with, and I don't know that anyone even considered how it'd be received. :(

I think there was probably a way to structure the scene where it didn't read the way that I read it (and a lot of folks who either can't have kids or don't want kids read it). Honestly, it would have been just as easy for both of them to focus on the damage they've done, Bruce more recently and Natasha in the past. I get that parenthood was kind of a theme that ran through the film, but when the spotlight is on reproduction and monstrousness, it's hard to get away from a reading of that scene that ties them together.

Yes, this is the impression I've got from other places too. :(

Really, that is the absolute best argument about it. When you've got one main female character, pretty much everything is guaranteed to be sexist in one way or another, because they can't help but make her a monolith. (I had some people argue, "but Wanda!" and I kind of feel that misses the point, since she was only just introduced, and we've seen a fair amount of Natasha across three movies prior to this one.

on the other hand, Joss doesn't have the best track record when it comes to women and reproduction, so I'm also inclined to think he unintentionally fell back into using some pretty deeply entrenched notions of women, femininity, and fertility.

I read a heartbreaking piece by an AVC writer (although on Salon) with a deeper (and I feel kind of alternate) reading of the scene and what it meant, but I feel that in an movie that's one long set of action set pieces, and is filled to bursting with other characters, even if Joss had intended to explore the self-hatred, or internalized feelings of alienation, or the loss of choice, or whatever, there was no way he could engage at that level in this movie as it was, and simply breezing past it just means utilizing it in the all-too-common sexist ways.

Really, that is the absolute best argument about it. When you've got one main female character, pretty much everything is guaranteed to be sexist in one way or another, because they can't help but make her a monolith.
She has to be Every Woman...

on the other hand, Joss doesn't have the best track record when it comes to women and reproduction, so I'm also inclined to think he unintentionally fell back into using some pretty deeply entrenched notions of women, femininity, and fertility.
Especially considering that it's all comic book territory, which is, um, not the most progressive of mediums. (Yes, some comic books push boundaries. But overall...)

I read a heartbreaking piece by an AVC writer (although on Salon) with a deeper (and I feel kind of alternate) reading of the scene and what it meant, but I feel that in an movie that's one long set of action set pieces, and is filled to bursting with other characters, even if Joss had intended to explore the self-hatred, or internalized feelings of alienation, or the loss of choice, or whatever, there was no way he could engage at that level in this movie as it was, and simply breezing past it just means utilizing it in the all-too-common sexist ways.
Yes, apparently it makes sense in context (particularly if you know her story etc etc), so if they wanted to include it, they should have been more careful about how they framed it.

I rather like the points Whedon makes in the article:

Twitter is an addictive little thing, and if it’s there, I gotta check it. When you keep doing something after it stops giving you pleasure, that’s kind of rock bottom for an addict. … I just had a little moment of clarity where I’m like, You know what? If I want to get stuff done, I need to not constantly hit this thing for a news item or a joke or some praise, and then be suddenly sad when there’s hate and then hate and then hate.”

I think this is true of a lot of social media on the internet. It's easy to let it suck you in and it does cause creative blocks. I know it shut down my writing for a bit. Have to be careful with it --and not let your ego get wrapped up in what shows up on social media.
One of the many pitfalls of the information age. Alot of writers, artists, and actors do not interact directly with their audience or read reviews - because it can shut them down. If they are loved - they get too full of themselves, if they are hated, they shut down. When in truth it's all subjective and fickle.

One of the many pitfalls of the information age. Alot of writers, artists, and actors do not interact directly with their audience or read reviews - because it can shut them down. If they are loved - they get too full of themselves, if they are hated, they shut down. When in truth it's all subjective and fickle.
True. But they should still engage somehow with some sort of criticism, I think. Or seek out feedback. Moffat really out it very well recently:

“I always worry about responding to it at all, because I then sound desperately defensive and weird if I list all the very strong women that we’ve imported into Sherlock that weren’t even in the original, or the number of times I have the Doctor saved by the women in his life. I just think I sound like a defensive idiot if I do that.
So, what can I say? I think it’s important that there is a feminist critique of television because things that go unquestioned go unchanged and what goes unchanged becomes institutionalized and what becomes institutionalized becomes your fault. So, it should be questioned.
I think some of the criticisms that are aimed at me personally are absurdly over the top and unfair, but then, who said the prosecution has to be fair? And it’s a case that needs to be prosecuted. When it’s personalized insults that my kids can see, that’s pretty bad. That’s bad form, I’d say, and it’s not the way you conduct a reasoned argument. But, as I say, who says the prosecution has to be fair?” —
Moffat

I have a grievance about Avengers! They awkwardly wedged it into my tv show so I feel like I have to see it in order to understand what's going on.

Stupid super heroes. This is why we can't have nice things!

Natasha/Bruce sounds ok I guess? *shrug*

ETA: more to your point, SHEILD, is brimming with women and people should watch it and not angst men in tights.

Edited 2015-05-11 23:01 (UTC)

ETA: more to your point, SHEILD, is brimming with women and people should watch it and not angst men in tights.
Angst Men in Tights is the best description ever! <3 (Although I like Iron Man. But then he doesn't wear tights...)

I like him too, but as a group? If the tights fit . . .

Hehehehehe.

I haven't watched most of the films either but, from what I understand, a major issue is that Natasha is the only main female character, and she's also the only character to not get her own movie to focus on her alone? The other characters got love interests and more focus on their issues in their own films, while all of Natasha's were kind of thrown into the one ensemble movie I guess, and there wasn't the space to deal with any of that sufficiently, but that seems to mostly be an issue with Marvel more than anything?

Apparently Joss had fleshed her part out much more, but had to cut loads. And then there's a love-story and a badly handled fertility thing.

And again, that's not all Joss' fault, but the fact that we have nine bazillion male superheroes, and only one female one, so she has everything piled on top of her. :(

Basically she should just have her own film.

*HUGS*

I have yet to see Ultron myself, but the radically (and idiotic) behavior of the Internet does not surprise me. It also does not surprise me that he has found a way to avoid such things, so is therefore less aware of them. There is no ability to speak and debate with the hateful - so avoidance is always a good thing.

However, I know a lot of busy writers and showrunners are leaving Twitter, but not because of reasons that everyone thinks: Twitter (like Tumblr and Facebook) is a time-eater and a distraction. When you are trying to stay on task and still have (somewhat) of a life, it is one of the first places you stop visiting.

*HUGS*

I have yet to see Ultron myself, but the radically (and idiotic) behavior of the Internet does not surprise me.
The fact that some of them actually have a point is what makes it worse. Because they are so completely not helping their own case.

However, I know a lot of busy writers and showrunners are leaving Twitter, but not because of reasons that everyone thinks: Twitter (like Tumblr and Facebook) is a time-eater and a distraction. When you are trying to stay on task and still have (somewhat) of a life, it is one of the first places you stop visiting.
This.

I think that the big issue there is that the media just thinks of feminists as crazy people who shouldn't be taken seriously, which is pure nonsense.

Also, I think the Internet has a habit of overreacting to things taken out of context.

There are all sorts of pros & cons and different readings (both of the movie and of what Joss says), but overall, maybe it comes down to the problem of having One Person Represent A Whole Gender...

You are definitely right there.

I think that the big issue there is that the media just thinks of feminists as crazy people who shouldn't be taken seriously, which is pure nonsense.
This. (Sadly.)

Also, I think the Internet has a habit of overreacting to things taken out of context.
Also this. Although I think there are definite issues with the film. However - see your point above.

ETA: I like your icon. Can I steal it?

Edited 2015-05-12 19:36 (UTC)

That is sadly true of what the media thinks of them, and it is such nonsense DX

Yes, there are definite issues in the film, and yet there are a lot of things that people overreact to on the Internet that aren't those issues at all :/

Yes you certainly can!

Yes, there are definite issues in the film, and yet there are a lot of things that people overreact to on the Internet that aren't those issues at all :/
Plus it detracts from the actual issues...

And thank you! *nabs*

Hate, hate and more hate, welcome to social media!

There are all sorts of pros & cons and different readings (both of the movie and of what Joss says), but overall, maybe it comes down to the problem of having One Person Represent A Whole Gender...
I don't know the particulars, either, but this sounds completely accurate and like a good global sum-up…

Hate, hate and more hate, welcome to social media!
Yes, that's how it goes!

I don't know the particulars, either, but this sounds completely accurate and like a good global sum-up…
Funnily enough, apparently the new Mad Max movie is EXCELLENT on this score. (I shall be making a separate post.)

That sounds good! :) Will keep an eye out for that post!

I think you've found it by now...

Yup :)

:)

Brief thoughts on Joss

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject