DW 8.10. Forest of the Night

[elisi]

Am trying to post something before Saturday... This could be longer, and I might come back to edit, but at least I've got SOMETHING out there. (For the William Blake connections, see this review: Tyger tyger, burning bright

PLEASE DO NOT POST ANY SPOILERS FOR THE FINALE!!!

Forest of the Night



Greenworld - literally
(I’m lost and I’m found)
Well, this one was pure fairy tale. We’ve had fairy tales before, but usually they’ve been set in a fairy tale world - or ‘greenworld’. Both The Big Bang and The Wedding of River Song are set in greenworlds, where ordinary logic and rules don’t apply. The Doctor (a Trickster character) belongs in the greenworld - f.ex. TARDIS is, quite literally, a different dimension.

Or, to quote Dr Sandifer (italics mine):

And so the moral heart of the Moffat era stands, for a moment, revealed - an understanding and principle we can take forward in reading everything else that he does. It is an observation that stems inexorably from the history of alchemy within the series and from the underlying imagery of this story. “As above, so below,” the injunction goes - a declaration that manipulating symbols and manipulating objects is, in some sense, the same thing. That a symbol and a thing are in some sense interchangeable.
From The Alchemists of the Middle Ages Made Transmutation Their Main Aim in Life (The Beast Below)

But here the greenworld has broken through, the symbols manifesting in the real world, and the Doctor is… helpless, pretty much. He accepts what is going to happen with barely a murmur once he works it out.

Instead Maebh takes his traditional role. Having tapped into the otherworldly, she becomes proactive in controlling the world, all manners of fairy tale characters rolled up into one - f.ex. we have specific mentions of Little Red Riding Hood and Hansel and Gretel.

The little girl becomes the Champion - she both calls forth the trees, and is also the one to instruct people to leave the trees alone. Of course such powers come at a price. She is constantly walking in two worlds simultaneously, seeing and hearing things others can’t. The Doctor - himself a greenworld character walking in the ‘real world’ - understands her predicament, and is able to help translate/reveal what she can perceive, just like his TARDIS is able to convey her message far and wide. But he is only the helper, Maebh is the driving force of the narrative.

And what a narrative - you can’t get much more fairy tale than a forest. It's worth noting that the other forest we've had this season - in Robot of Sherwood - was also somewhat 'unreal', and the Doctor was very distrustful. Also we have an awful lot of characters named after forests... Ellie Ravenwood (Clara's mother), Courtney Woods, PC Forrest, Maebh Arden (the Forest of Arden is the setting for Shakespeare’s As You Like It). Trees have always been a big theme, but they're really pushing the boat out this time.

I’ve seen people say that because this one was all imagery they just sat back and didn’t engage their brain. (I will never understand this.) As malsperanza once put it, back during early S5:

This is Tolkien country, where there is a willow grows aslant a brook not in order to be picturesque and pastoral, but to eat you if you are so foolish as to come too near. As Gandalf says, there are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world. And deep space is one of those places; the human heart is another. In Rivendell, Frodo notes, there is the memory of ancient things; in Lorien the ancient things still live on in the waking world. And as Hamlet remarks (perhaps because he is familiar with the ways of willow-trees), there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in the philosophy of a rationalist. Moffat knows that the scariest things are not chainsaws and tentacles but shadows and cracked plaster, and that the scariest things are also the most wonderful, wonderful and yet again wonderful. He knows because like most good British writers, he learned about enchanted forests from Arden and the woods near Athens; about trees that imprison mysteries from a cloven pine; about the magical transformations that occur in the deep places from the tolling of a sea-nymph's bell. The Shakespearean echoes are all over Doctor Who.

The interesting thing is that even with the greenworld taking over, the basic structure of the world still stands:

Danny (along with humanity) stays put on Earth itself. But Missy watches from Below (Nethersphere) and Clara and the Doctor watch the solar flare strike Earth from Above (the Heavens).


Doctor Clara
This episode can be seen as Clara’s final step in Doctor-y-ness. She manipulates him as if born to it (and who’s to say she wasn’t?), and he doesn’t suspect for a moment. And then - she rejects becoming him completely (“I don’t want to be the last of my kind.”). But she could have been.

The role swap is wonderful. Usually the Doctor is the one to save the Companion, even at the expense of his own life, and the Companion then - in turn - tends to come up with some sort of plan and save the day. (See… oh, Parting of the Ways for a perfect example.)

This time she sends him away to keep him safe. There is also the wonderful mirrored dialogue from Kill the Moon - this time he claims the Earth as his also, using the exact words she threw at him so angrily, yet she kindly but firmly tells him thank you, but no.

Of course Kill the Moon had another instance of the greenworld crossing over to the ‘real’ world wholesale - the Moon is an egg! - and there too Clara faced a similar sort of dilemma. Not that there is much of a choice this time, and she decides to let them all die (the children included) rather than live on with the kind loss she sees crippling the Doctor every day. (Not to mention her own trauma of losing her mother - when she says the children will never stop missing their parents, she is speaking of herself also.)

Now Clara is also mirrored in Maebh - Maebh is lost and found, just like Clara was when she was little. And being ‘lost’ is one the touchstones of Clara’s story (“I don’t know where I am” - from Asylum of Daleks, The Bells of St John and The Name of the Doctor), and in The Rings of Akhaten she tells Merry Gejelh about how she got lost when she was only little. But her mother found her…

CLARA: Everyone's scared when they're little. I used to be terrified of getting lost. Used to have nightmares about it. And then I got lost. Blackpool beach, Bank holiday Monday, about ten billion people. I was about six. My worst nightmare come true.
MERRY: What happened?
CLARA: The world ended. My heart broke. And then my mum found me. We had fish and chips, and she drove me home and she tucked me up and she told me a story.
ELLIE [memory]: It doesn't matter where you are, in the jungle or the desert or on the moon. However lost you may feel, you'll never really be lost. Not really. Because I will always be here, and I will always come and find you. Every single time. Every single time.

Just like Maebh is found by her mother in this episode. And not only that, but her sister returns also: the completion of a family the conclusion of the story. This bodes well for the future. :)

Now, even though Clara rejected becoming the Doctor fully, she is still drawn to his world - to the wonder and the terror and the difficult choices. But Danny...


Danny
(not one man in ten thousand)
The other day I came across a comment wondering why Danny was just letting Clara go off on her own like that. Surely if he really cared about her he would go along - if nothing else to try to keep her safe, considering how dangerous life with the Doctor is. I’m sure there are many other comments along the same lines out there. How can he be so calm letting his girlfriend go off like that?

It took me a moment, but then I realised that this reminded me of one of my favourite passages of any book ever. The book is ‘Gaudy Night’ by Dorothy L. Sayers, one of her series of Peter Wimsey novels. The main character in this (and several of the other novels) is Harriet Vane, who is in this book trying to unravel a mystery on her own. She has for five years been pursued by the ‘great detective’ Peter Wimsey (and he IS great! If I had a choice, I’d without a shadow of a doubt choose him over any other fictional detective) and has here just received a letter from him; they know each other well, and he proposes with great regularity. She has so far always turned him down (let’s just say it’s complicated..) This is her reaction to what he writes:

[...] More generously still, he had not only refrained from offers of help or advice which she might have resented; he had deliberately acknowledged that she had the right to run her own risks. “Do be careful of yourself”; “I hate to think of your being exposed to unpleasantness”; “If only I could be there to protect you”; any such phrase would express the normal male reaction. Not one man in ten thousand would say to the woman he loved, or to any woman: “Disagreeableness and danger will not turn you back, and God forbid they should.” That was an admission of equality, and she had not expected it of him. If he conceived of marriage along those lines, then the whole problem would have to be reviewed in that new light; but that seemed scarcely possible. To take such a line and stick to it, he would have to be, not a man but a miracle.

Our Mr Pink seems cut from the same cloth. So there you have it, ladies and gentlemen - Moffat has created one of the most feminist' love interest since Peter Wimsey. (And Dorothy L Sayers was a feminist, even if she might not have used the word. See this book.)

I don’t think this means he’ll stay passive, come what may. If she were in danger I’m sure he’d rush to save her (like he did in The Caretaker).

He has so far deliberately rejected the rush and thrill to be able to focus what’s in front of him. (But what if that was taken away?) He said he left the army because of ‘a bad day’... This all sounds very Doctor-y to me (echoes of ‘No More’ all over his statements), so who knows what hidden depths he might contain?

It also occurred to me that he'll probably turn out to have been mirrored in Captain Quell - the old soldier in charge of the Orient Express who had lost his taste for battle. The one who springs into action after the third person was killed. I think Danny might have a similar arc. He is so deliberately laid back and unconfrontational (except when pushed), but with Clara herself on the line, I think he might snap into action again. And it looks like the finale might push just the right sorts of buttons... Yes, it could just be that we’ll once more see a good man go to war.


Dark Water Trailers
(and I’m hungry like the wolf)

I could write speculation forever…

Missy, Cybermen, UNIT, Kate Stewart, Osgood, Clara - ‘Clara Oswald has never existed’.

Of course this is the trailer for part one of the finale, so I’m sure there’ll be twenty three more twists, but even so I feel that I was right… There is a reason she’s been monster’d so many times. Clara isn’t what she seems (even as she’ll be exactly what she is - she is always two opposites simultaneously).

I am of course hoping that Missy will turn out to be the Master, because I love the Master. This would also (presumably) tie the whole story arc into Gallifrey, which seems likely in any case. Clara has Gallifreyan symbols written all over her. (Not that there aren’t other ways of achieving this. But the Master would be so much FUN.) Plus of course the whole idea of cheating death is right up the Master’s alley…

Mind you, I am hesitant to wonder too much, but I figure that the invasion of our world by another (like how the trees turned up from fairy tale land - but in this case it’s the Nethersphere) is pretty obvious, and that it’ll all end with a family reunion is almost a given. After all, that is how Moffat resolves most of his plots. It’s working out how the people are related that’s the issue… Both the Doctor and Missy have referred to Clara as ‘theirs’ ("Clara, my Clara...") - my prediction is that she’ll belong to both of them. After all she has been a Doctor mirror since she first appeared - but the darker mirror must come from somewhere else. And that ‘else’ is clearly Missy, whoever she is:

"Why do you have three mirrors?"

Three is obviously the magic number. As I've tried to show in my header, both Twelve and Clara have worn their faces three times. And we will undoubtedly get another trio now: The Doctor, Clara and Missy. ETA: By the way, it looks as if Missy stole Eleven's Christmas outfit.

Comments

[promethia_tenk]

Am trying to post something before Saturday... This could be longer, and I might come back to edit, but at least I've got SOMETHING out there.
I don't understand how you're still going *fusses and feeds you tea* Anyway, very nice summation of things as they stand.

But here the greenworld has broken through, the symbols manifesting in the real world, and the Doctor is… helpless, pretty much. He accepts what is going to happen with barely a murmur once he works it out.
I want to make something of his helplessness here together with his helplessness in TWoRS (the last place where the greenworld so totally took over the real world). It's like . . . the Doctor derives his power and is most able to act where these two worlds intersect. Where one or the other takes over too much (and we see the other extreme when the Doctor is forced too much into the normal world--Power of Three), he ends up paralyzed.

The little girl becomes the Champion - she both calls forth the trees, and is also the one to instruct people to leave the trees alone. Of course such powers come at a price. She is constantly walking in two worlds simultaneously, seeing and hearing things others can’t.
The story about Maebh's sister is annoying me because I don't think it quite got properly tied to everything else that's happening. There's the skeleton of a proper story arc there--we're told Maebh started hearing voices after her sister disappeared. And the reason characters wander into the green world is because they have real-world problems that they are not equipped to solve in the real world. They then become aware of and come to solve a crisis in the greenworld that helps them in some way to solve their real world problem . . . which I guess sort of happened with Maebh's broadcast asking people to leave the trees alone and for her sister to come home. And you could read it as the forest deciding to help her because she helped the forest, but the whole thing isn't quite fully formed and it ends up feeling badly tacked on and you're left wondering why they bothered adding it on at all (I mean, yes, this is Moff Who and these are the themes and hopefully that's some foreshadowing we've got going on there. But it needed work.)

The role swap is wonderful. Usually the Doctor is the one to save the Companion, even at the expense of his own life, and the Companion then - in turn - tends to come up with some sort of plan and save the day. (See… oh, Parting of the Ways for a perfect example.)
There's a nice gif set on Tumblr of Eleven tricking Clara into leaving in Time of the Doctor and Clara tricking him into leaving here.

Not that there is much of a choice this time, and she decides to let them all die (the children included) rather than live on with the kind loss she sees crippling the Doctor every day.
She's probably projecting her own experience onto the situation too--she knows what it is to lose a parent and decides she's not going to subject the children to that. *ponders* In reference to Clara's multiple mirrors (earth/above/below): you could probably say that the death of Clara's mother is what 'cut her loose' from earth to go drifting into the other realms (as the loss of her sister is what compels Maebh into the greenworld here), and what Clara wants to save the other children from by deciding to keep them on earth (they would become orphans *and* space people). Also: it would not surprise me if we meet Ellie Ravenwood in the Nethersphere.

[promethia_tenk]

I don’t think this means he’ll stay passive, come what may. If she were in danger I’m sure he’d rush to save her, just like she rushed to save him.
Well, and so he did, in The Caretaker.

Yes, it could just be that we’ll once more see a good man go to war.
The similarities between the set-up this season and in season six are pretty pronounced: menacing but campy female figure dressed in black has been watching our heroine from the underworld with some kind of creepy intent. It wouldn't surprise me if the crises/resolutions end up similar as well.

that it’ll all end with a family reunion is almost a given. After all, that is how Moffat resolves most of his plots. It’s working out how the people are related that’s the issue… Both the Doctor and Missy have referred to Clara as ‘theirs’ ("Clara, my Clara...") - my prediction is that she’ll belong to both of them. After all she has been a Doctor mirror since she first appeared - but the darker mirror must come from somewhere else. And that ‘else’ is clearly Missy, whoever she is
*nods* Thinking about it, though, the Doctor himself has been a pretty 'dark' mirror all season (that, in fact, seems to be the main thrust of the mirroring). Which makes me wonder if what/in any sense Missy might prove to be a light mirror.

[elisi]

Well, and so he did, in The Caretaker.
True.

The similarities between the set-up this season and in season six are pretty pronounced: menacing but campy female figure dressed in black has been watching our heroine from the underworld with some kind of creepy intent. It wouldn't surprise me if the crises/resolutions end up similar as well.
Well we already know that they'll probably end up in a greenworld (the Nethersphere), although I am very curious to see what needs fixing. Clara, presumably. And the Doctor's selfdoubt. (There might even be a wedding... It wouldn't be a finale without one. But I couldn't tell you if it would be Clara or the Doctor who'd get hitched.)

*nods* Thinking about it, though, the Doctor himself has been a pretty 'dark' mirror all season (that, in fact, seems to be the main thrust of the mirroring). Which makes me wonder if what/in any sense Missy might prove to be a light mirror.
She 'saves' people from death... That mirrors both the Library and the Bells of St John. I have a feeling Missy tilts more towards the GI than CAL.

[elisi]

I don't understand how you're still going *fusses and feeds you tea*
Obsession. I can't not. And thank you for the tea. :)

Anyway, very nice summation of things as they stand.
Thank you. I feel I should have done more with soldiers & fear and all that, but...

I want to make something of his helplessness here together with his helplessness in TWoRS (the last place where the greenworld so totally took over the real world). It's like . . . the Doctor derives his power and is most able to act where these two worlds intersect. Where one or the other takes over too much (and we see the other extreme when the Doctor is forced too much into the normal world--Power of Three), he ends up paralyzed.
That's what I was trying to get at, yes. The Voices that speak are older than him, and will far outlive him, and he just accepts their superior authority without question.

The story about Maebh's sister is annoying me because I don't think it quite got properly tied to everything else that's happening
*nods a lot* As you say we can see the bones of it, and I can relate it to the whole, and to the season as a whole, but it should have been much stronger.

There's a nice gif set on Tumblr of Eleven tricking Clara into leaving in Time of the Doctor and Clara tricking him into leaving here.
If you have a link, I'd love it. :)

She's probably projecting her own experience onto the situation too--she knows what it is to lose a parent and decides she's not going to subject the children to that.
I meant to write that too! Have edited it to include that point. Thanks for reminding me.

In reference to Clara's multiple mirrors (earth/above/below): you could probably say that the death of Clara's mother is what 'cut her loose' from earth to go drifting into the other realms (as the loss of her sister is what compels Maebh into the greenworld here)
Oh, nice. Yes.

what Clara wants to save the other children from by deciding to keep them on earth (they would become orphans *and* space people)
Exactly.

Also: it would not surprise me if we meet Ellie Ravenwood in the Nethersphere.
People have (also) been worrying that Clara will end up having to be saved by Danny. Whereas OBVIOUSLY if she needs saving, it'll be her mother coming for her. <3

[masakochan.livejournal.com]

Yeah- from what little I've heard about Danny's role in Dark Water/Death in Heaven- he definitely sounds like he's going to get his 'Rory the Roman' moment.

I’m sure there are many other comments along the same lines out there. How can he be so calm letting his girlfriend go off like that?

I think someone on tumblr summed it up best as basically: Danny understands Clara, well enough at this point, to see that she can be truthful when she's given enough time to think about it- since most of her quick decisions have involved lying (this season/series). And that he sees her lying as a much bigger problem, that's harmful to their relationship, and he's going to mainly just going to focus on fixing that.

[elisi]

Yeah- from what little I've heard about Danny's role in Dark Water/Death in Heaven- he definitely sounds like he's going to get his 'Rory the Roman' moment.
Thank sounds good! (I am avoiding spoilers like crazy. *hides under rock*)

Danny understands Clara, well enough at this point, to see that she can be truthful when she's given enough time to think about it- since most of her quick decisions have involved lying (this season/series). And that he sees her lying as a much bigger problem, that's harmful to their relationship, and he's going to mainly just going to focus on fixing that.
That's a very good summary. Thank you.

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

Okay, this meta is absolutely perfect. Down to the last detail!! I am nervous and excited about part one of the finale (and I'm sure you'll have some excellent tidbits to point out there as well).

*HUGS*

[elisi]

Okay, this meta is absolutely perfect. Down to the last detail!!
Thank you! It's... like trying to tape a mirror together - everything fractures all over the place.

I am nervous and excited about part one of the finale (and I'm sure you'll have some excellent tidbits to point out there as well).
I'm sure there'll be ESSAYS' worth! :D

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Wonderful meta :)

[elisi]

Thank you! :)

[ragnarok-08.livejournal.com]

This is fantastic, as always <3

[elisi]

Aw, thank you. ♥

[flowsoffire.livejournal.com]

Loving your thoughts, as always—Maebh (I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to spell it, what a lovely name—I wonder what it means), Clara, and Danny! ♥ Yes, I love how Danny respects what she wants, how she is. Which makes it all the more painful when she finds herself lying to him, because he would accept. Another good man going to war! ♥ I would love this. Can't wait to see how the finale turns out…

[elisi]

Loving your thoughts, as always—Maebh (I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to spell it, what a lovely name
Thank you! And it's always useful to check out the fact file for the episode in question. :)

I wonder what it means
MEANING: From an old Irish name Madb, “the cause of great joy” or “she who intoxicates.” The great warrior queen of Connacht and embodiment of sovereignity she stars in Ireland’s greatest epic “The Cattle Raid of Cooley” (x)

Yes, I love how Danny respects what she wants, how she is. Which makes it all the more painful when she finds herself lying to him, because he would accept.
It also makes it *her* issue, which I think is important. (Rule One...)

Another good man going to war! ♥ I would love this.
I sincerely doubt they'd make him a soldier without using that to the greatest possible effect.

Can't wait to see how the finale turns out…
Two more days to part 1...

[flowsoffire.livejournal.com]

Thank you! And it's always useful to check out the fact file for the episode in question. :)

MEANING: From an old Irish name Madb, “the cause of great joy” or “she who intoxicates.” The great warrior queen of Connacht and embodiment of sovereignity she stars in Ireland’s greatest epic “The Cattle Raid of Cooley” (x)
Thank you! :D

It also makes it *her* issue, which I think is important. (Rule One...)
Ohhh, yes. More mirroring, of course.

I sincerely doubt they'd make him a soldier without using that to the greatest possible effect.
*nods*

Two more days to part 1...
Yes ♥

[elisi]

It's ALLLLLLL mirrors!

[flowsoffire.livejournal.com]

EVERYWHERE! :D

[elisi]

:)

[purplefringe.livejournal.com]

I think the importance of the name Maebh is also that it's often associated with 'Queen Mab', the fairy queen (referenced by Mercutio in Romeo & Juliet - there were several Shakespeare references in this ep)

[elisi]

Thank you! There was something in the back of my mind, but I am sadly lacking in Shakespearean knowledge.

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

Say what you will about Moffat but he knows his fairytales.

And then - she rejects becoming him completely (“I don’t want to be the last of my kind.”).
YESSSSSSSSSSS.

There is also the wonderful mirrored dialogue from Kill the Moon - this time he claims the Earth as his also, using the exact words she threw at him so angrily
A+ touch.

Not to mention her own trauma of losing her mother - when she says the children will never stop missing their parents, she is speaking of herself also.
Good point -- we don't delve into Clara's trauma much but her background subtly informs a lot of her personal choices day to day.

Amen on Danny. I don’t care about Clara/Danny tbh but fandom’s complaints about Danny as a person are lost on me.

“Disagreeableness and danger will not turn you back, and God forbid they should.”
Interestingly I feel like this could apply to the Doctor too… (though he’s not without his paternalistic moments).

I am of course hoping that Missy will turn out to be the Master, because I love the Master.
PRAYER CIRCLE

IN CONCLUSION: May the finale ruin all of our lives.

[elisi]

Say what you will about Moffat but he knows his fairytales.
He realllllly does!

YESSSSSSSSSSS.
So lovely. So understated.

A+ touch.
I really, really like the arc this season.

Good point -- we don't delve into Clara's trauma much but her background subtly informs a lot of her personal choices day to day.
Absolutely. And I like the fact that it's not constantly held up.

Amen on Danny. I don’t care about Clara/Danny tbh but fandom’s complaints about Danny as a person are lost on me.
Fandom is never happy. I'm just thrilled to have an emotionally mature adult male on a children's show. It's worth AN AWFUL LOT!

Interestingly I feel like this could apply to the Doctor too… (though he’s not without his paternalistic moments).
Oh yes, but then the Doctor is the one 'leading people astray...'

PRAYER CIRCLE
I hadn't thought of that!

IN CONCLUSION: May the finale ruin all of our lives.
No it will complete our lives. Again. And make everything canon that we could ever want. <3

[enevarim]

Splendid, as always.

I love the way you are able to tie apparently random things in in a way that makes them suddenly obviously not random at all. “Why do you have three mirrors?” indeed. And who is the third?

And the specific piece of Carmen used in Asylum is looking less accidental than ever, from Clara's words in the next time trailer. Prends garde à toi, indeed.

I recognized the “not one man in ten thousand” subhead, from my own favourite book. Nothing would please me more than if Moffat were writing GaudyNight!LordPeter in the twenty-first century, but lines in The Caretaker like “I'm the one who carries you out of the fire: he's the one who lights it” feel as though at least some of the time he's letting his six centuries of possessive blood get the better of his years of over-sensitized intellect. And pair that with “I'm saying it because if you don't tell me the truth I can't help you, and I could never stand not being able to help you” and it feels not a hundred miles from “If only I could be there to protect you”, though yes, help/protect difference. Though (on the third hand?) “I just want to know the truth. I don't care what it is, I just want to know it.” does feel like “Establish the facts, no matter what comes of it.” (Although since the truth is that she's been lying to both of them all the way through, I'm not sure I buy that Danny doesn't care what it is.)

And now that's a completely separate set of thoughts, since Peter-and-Harriet is my baseline model for how a relationship should work, of how the Doctor-and-River relationship with secrets and spoilers and lies could work, given that Clara and Danny are coming close to demonstrating that outside of the greenworld it doesn't.

Agree with everything you say about Danny after that and likely future arc, though.

And very much enjoying the food for thought. Thank you.

[elisi]

Splendid, as always.
Why thank you! :D

I love the way you are able to tie apparently random things in in a way that makes them suddenly obviously not random at all. “Why do you have three mirrors?” indeed. And who is the third?
Missy.

And the specific piece of Carmen used in Asylum is looking less accidental than ever, from Clara's words in the next time trailer. Prends garde à toi, indeed.
It really is excellent all the way through!

I recognized the “not one man in ten thousand” subhead, from my own favourite book.
♥

but lines in The Caretaker like “I'm the one who carries you out of the fire: he's the one who lights it” feel as though at least some of the time he's letting his six centuries of possessive blood get the better of his years of over-sensitized intellect.
LOL. Although Danny is emphatically NOT the 'gentleman officer'. And at that moment he's speaking about soldiers generally.

And pair that with “I'm saying it because if you don't tell me the truth I can't help you, and I could never stand not being able to help you” and it feels not a hundred miles from “If only I could be there to protect you”, though yes, help/protect difference.
Oh there's certainly overlap, but then Peter comes along to help unravel the mystery at Shrewsbury also... I think the point I'm trying to make is that he doesn't try to limit her choices based on her gender.

“I just want to know the truth. I don't care what it is, I just want to know it.” does feel like “Establish the facts, no matter what comes of it.”
I do love that book. *deep sigh*

though since the truth is that she's been lying to both of them all the way through, I'm not sure I buy that Danny doesn't care what it is.
Well he says they'll talk it over later - at that point he just wants to establish some sort of place for communication.

And now that's a completely separate set of thoughts, since Peter-and-Harriet is my baseline model for how a relationship should work,
Me toooooooooo.

of how the Doctor-and-River relationship with secrets and spoilers and lies could work, given that Clara and Danny are coming close to demonstrating that outside of the greenworld it doesn't.
Well they're not timey-wimey, so they don't need that whole set-up. Clara is just being drawn in very deeply, becoming the Doctor, which is problematic.

Agree with everything you say about Danny after that and likely future arc, though.
Only one more day to wait!

And very much enjoying the food for thought. Thank you.
Thank YOU for your very indepth comment. ♥

[enevarim]

Missy, yes, but I had her as the second mirror, so if there are three mirrors they are The Doctor, and Missy, and ... ?

And yes, totally agree that Danny has “good man” and “no more” stamped all over him. And, oh dear, I just thought of something I really don't want them to do in the finale. Is it tomorrow yet?

“Clara and Danny, a love story with Doctorish interruptions.” Partly from the inside, as Clara becomes the Doctor. “These Time Lord hands,” she said, watching him. “You knew that, though, didn't you?” (The difference being of course that Danny didn't, at first, though he is catching up.) Is Moffat on record anywhere talking about Sayers, do we know?

[elisi]

Missy, yes, but I had her as the second mirror, so if there are three mirrors they are The Doctor, and Missy, and ... ?
I have Clara as the middle mirror. If that makes sense?

And yes, totally agree that Danny has “good man” and “no more” stamped all over him. And, oh dear, I just thought of something I really don't want them to do in the finale. Is it tomorrow yet?
Nope. 26 hours to go.

“Clara and Danny, a love story with Doctorish interruptions.” Partly from the inside, as Clara becomes the Doctor.
Oh that's excellent. Although of course Harriet becomes a 'doctor'[/detective] too...

“These Time Lord hands,” she said, watching him. “You knew that, though, didn't you?”
HANDS! (You've seen Promethia's vid, right? The New Age. (Also you are just killing me... I'm sure I know great swathes of Busman's Honeymoon by heart.)

Is Moffat on record anywhere talking about Sayers, do we know?
Not as far as I know.

[enevarim]

Ah, yes, that makes sense. I was thinking of threes, and how just as River ended up with three mothers/mirrors, Amy, and Madame Kovarian, and then suddenly and unexpectedly she was the child of the TARDIS as well, we might end up with an as-yet-unhinted-at third major influence.

ETA: (computer ate my first attempt):
Although of course Harriet becomes a 'doctor'[/detective] too...
And we haven't closed the book on whether Danny will too, so the analogy holds...

HANDS!
I love that video. And I also went back to the Name of the Doctor meta of the image that became the icon, and like the first commenter, now I want to re-watch everything again.

And, yes. Knowing great swathes of Sayers is something that happens. My first day at the Fitzwilliam Museum, half a lifetime ago and half a world away, someone said “But however entrancing it is to wander unchecked through a garden of bright images” and I had to continue “are we not enticing your mind from another subject of almost equal importance?” because, really, what else could one possibly say at that point?

[elisi]

Ah, yes, that makes sense. I was thinking of threes, and how just as River ended up with three mothers/mirrors, Amy, and Madame Kovarian, and then suddenly and unexpectedly she was the child of the TARDIS as well, we might end up with an as-yet-unhinted-at third major influence.
Oh I see where you're coming from now! Third 'parental' figure is her mother (Ellie Ravenwood - now there's a name!).

I love that video. And I also went back to the Name of the Doctor meta of the image that became the icon, and like the first commenter, now I want to re-watch everything again.
Yeah, if only there was more TIME...

And, yes. Knowing great swathes of Sayers is something that happens. My first day at the Fitzwilliam Museum, half a lifetime ago and half a world away, someone said “But however entrancing it is to wander unchecked through a garden of bright images” and I had to continue “are we not enticing your mind from another subject of almost equal importance?” because, really, what else could one possibly say at that point?
My ear is open like a greedy shark to catch the tunings of a voice divine.

ETA: Had to go eat my tea halfway through replying, so missed your ETA.

And we haven't closed the book on whether Danny will too, so the analogy holds...
Oh Danny was set up as a Doctor mirror right from the start. Soldier, soldier...

[enevarim]

My ear is open like a greedy shark to catch the tunings of a voice divine.
True, it is a youthful effort; but there are some things that even youth does not excuse. :D

[elisi]

*points to icon*

[sea_thoughts]

He is so deliberately laid back and unconfrontational (except when pushed), but with Clara herself on the line, I think he might snap into action again.

Well... it seems so far that Danny's best course of action was to do nothing (much like Draco Malfoy in Deathly Hallows). Hope that's not too spoilery!

I truly love Danny. I can't understand why people think him 'dull and manipulative'. This man has obviously gone through serious trauma and would prefer to stay on Earth, cherish each moment and take care of the children in his charge. He doesn't want to be a soldier any more, he wants to be a teacher. A teacher, moreover, of Maths, the language of the universe (really, Doctor, you are missing on some great conversations by judging Danny the way you do), a subject which enables you to spot patterns and understand buildings and music. This is a man who is able to step back and tell Clara "think about it and let me know what you want" without pressuring her or trying to protect her. It makes an interesting contrast with Rory.

[elisi]

Well... it seems so far that Danny's best course of action was to do nothing (much like Draco Malfoy in Deathly Hallows). Hope that's not too spoilery!
Ooooh I've seen it now! (It takes a lot for me not to be in front of the TV when it airs...) But it'd be nice to keep this post spoiler free, so thank you! :)

I truly love Danny. I can't understand why people think him 'dull and manipulative'.
Manipulative? Really? Well bless whoever they are, even if that were true he is FAAAAAR out-ranked by Clara & the Doctor. *g*

And I think I misjudged his arc. Am loving where it is going, but it was unexpected.

[sea_thoughts]

I saw that you'd seen it but I wanted to be cautious for the sake of others, so you're welcome. :)

Yeah, manipulative because he wants Clara to be truthful with him and doesn't force her to make any decisions and tries to hep her think about what she's doing. *snort* This despite the fact that Clara is actually the manipulative one in the relationship and, of course, the Doctor is even more manipulative than Clara...

I really hope he sticks around.

[elisi]

I saw that you'd seen it but I wanted to be cautious for the sake of others, so you're welcome. :)
I am very grateful. Thank you again. :)

Yeah, manipulative because he wants Clara to be truthful with him and doesn't force her to make any decisions and tries to hep her think about what she's doing.
Tied with Rory Williams as the mastermind of the new show.

I hope he sticks around too!

[sea_thoughts]

Yeah, Rupert and Rory, good thing they'll never meet up, the consequences would be disastrous!

[elisi]

Mr Pink and Mr Pond... Oooh that sounds good. :D