elisi | Unpopular fandom opinions... *g*

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Unpopular fandom opinions... g

Today is the birthday of

st_salieri one of the bestest writers out there! Have a Fabulous Day dear, and in your honour (as it were) I decided to post my 'unpopular fandom opinions' that I've had on my desktop for weeks. (Not that I have time for replying to comments or anything, mind you...)

Only 2, but definitely unpopular! *g*

I don’t mind the B/A kiss in EoD.
I’ve talked about this before of course - twice even - but recently I’ve given it more thought since it’s been mentioned a few times on my flist, usually coupled with the annoyance of throwing the B/A crowd a bone when their ship was left behind years before.

Standard disclaimer: I don’t *like* the kiss, and it’s a thoroughly nasty thing from Spike’s POV yadda, yadda you know the drill.

Now let’s go all the way back to S3 and look at what Spike tells our star crossed lovers:

You're not friends. You'll never be
friends. You'll be in love till it
kills you both. You'll fight, you'll
shag, you'll hate each other till it
makes you quiver, but you'll never be
friends. Real love isn't brains,
children, it's blood, it's blood
screaming inside you to work its
will. I may be love's bitch, but at
least I'm man enough to admit it.

The script goes on to portray the scene like this:

There is silence. Buffy and Angel are comeback deficient. They resolutely do not look at one another.

Spike was onto something. But the thing is, Spike isn’t really describing B/A, he’s projecting his own relationship with Dru onto them, trying to explain the nature of love - the maddening, infuriating, blinding passion that just sweeps you up. And Buffy and Angel know all about that. We see this in in their first kiss in S1, in all their interactions in S2 and S3, we see it in ‘I Will Remember You’ and we even see it in ‘Forever’: A touch, a kiss and they’re nearly falling over the edge. As Cordy and Wesley put it so very eloquently in ‘Fredless’:

Cordy: "Oh - Angel! I know that I'm a Slayer and you a vampire - and it would be *impossible* for us to *be* together - *but!*"
Wes stands up: "But!"
Cordy turns to look at him. Wes pulls his glasses off and lays them to the side.
Wes: "My gypsy curse sometimes prevents me from seeing the truth. Oh, Buffy!"
Cordy: "Yes, Angel?"
Wes: "Oh, I love you so much I almost forgot to *brood!*"
Cordy: "And just because I sent you to hell that one time doesn't mean that we can't just be friends."
Wes grabs a hold of Cordy's wrist.
Cordy: "Oh!"
Wes: "Or possibly more."
Cordy gasps: "Gasp! No! We mustn't."
Wes pulls Cordy close.
Wes: "Kiss me."
Cordy: "Bite me!"

It’s big drama. Oh yeah.

Now fastforward to ‘End of Days’/’Chosen’. And look at that kiss and the aftermath. Are they breathless with desire? Unable to keep their hands off each other, but manfully fighting their urges? Nope. Nada. Zilch. They’re happy, and affectionate, similar in interaction to Buffy and Riley pre-Sam intrusion. I look at them and see - friendship. With a little added extra for old times sake maybe, but friendship none the less. And the kiss proves that to me. It’s... closure.

See Spike was wrong in ‘Lovers Walk’ - he wasn’t describing the future of B/A. Or of himself and Dru, although he came closer there. Both those relationships were doomed. He was talking about himself and Buffy - and there is a subject that I *don’t* need to expand on! ;)

I don’t mind Buffy dating The Immortal.
What people forget is that Buffy really likes boys. Always has. She notices how handsome Angel is right from the beginning, but it’s Owen that she first tries to date - and if he hadn’t turned out to be an adrenalin junkie that relationship might have lasted a bit longer than it did.

Anyway, then comes Angel and the whole ‘head-over-heels-in-love-OMG!’. Fastforward to the beginning of S3, and by ‘Faith, Hope and Trick’ (5 months after she sent Angel to Hell) she sort-of starts dating Scott. Of course Angel re-appears and Scott turned out to be gay anyway, but still- dating.

In S4 Buffy sleeps with Parker in HLOD, expecting a relationship, again 5 months after Angel left. Parker turns out to be a poop head, so she proceeds very carefully when Riley begins pursuing her, but by February they’re very much a couple and sleeping together. That’s 8 months post-Angel leaving. Rememeber - the guy who was THE BIG LOVE OF HER LIFE!!!

So - no matter the heart break, Buffy is optimistic when it comes to love. Now notice that it takes almost an entire *year* before we hear about a boyfriend post-Spike. That’s twice as long as post-Angel. The question is of course: Does she know that Spike is alive?

- If no, then I think she’s trying to live - ‘so one of them is living’. She knows that he’d hate for her to sit pining and whining.

- If yes, then I’d guess she’s probably pissed off because he never told her, and worried because he’s working with Angel at W&H.

Neither is a reason for her to enter a convent. As for Spike’s reaction in TGiQ “It’s really over. Not that I thought I had a chance anyway...” then I don’t think he’s given up forever and ever. If there’s anyone who always gets up again when he’s knocked down it’s Spike. Also notice that he hadn’t thought it was over *before* that... and ain’t that interesting? Actually it reminds me of the Oz/Willow/Tara situation.

Now for the Immortal himself... I think/hope that Buffy has accepted that ‘normal’ might never do it for her. Or at least she’s not going to run around looking for it, like with Riley. But more than that, just try to think about what we know about him:

”Have you seen him? With the eyes and the chest and the...”
(sighs blissfully)
“immortality.”

“I don't know what he is. A giant. A titan straddling good and evil, serving no master but his own considerable desires.”

“Darling. It was just fornication.”
(chuckles)
“Really great fornication.”

“He's insatiable.”

“He felt like sunshine.”

Sounds incredible, doesn’t it? And he’s rich too! Pretty much the perfect package!

And *that*, dear friends, is Buffy’s rebound guy after Spike! :)

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It never really worried me that Buffy was going out with a guy - I just hated the concept of the Immortal. It felt so contrived, exactly as if the writers were thinking about who could be an acceptable rebound - only the perfect guy, a supernatural who had stolen girls from under Spike and Angel before (although they didn't stay around, so what was that about? The Immortal isn't long-term material?) and just smacked of Mary Sue. I mean, how many undead woobies can there be? Two was stretching it (at least in Angel's opinion).

Nuh, the Immortal just felt very forced to me.The writers could have found ways for all three of them to move on w/o him, I think...

Oh I know. But some writers have actually created amazing characters out of him (

treacle_a ('Mortal Wounds') and

shapinglight ('Vampire Winter') probably stand out), so I really don't mind all that much. And I guess we'll at some point see what Joss was thinking...

I always thought that the Immortal was designed in order to give the pro-Spike and pro-Angel factions someone whom they could both hate. He's not a character, he's a plot device. I don't see any problem with Buffy dating, and if she's gotten over her normality fetish, she'll probably be happier in the long run. I think the episode is fun, but...it's the fact that it's the last word on Buffy, Spike, and Angel that's frustrating. Does Buffy know Spike's alive? Does she care? Why won't her organization help with Illyria? We'll never know. They knew it was the last word, too, and I think the writers let their frustration with SMG slop over to Buffy to some extent.

Word to all of that.

Thank you so much dear! And yay for unpopular opinions.

I really like the way you describe the B/A EoD kiss. It really does make sense in terms of those two characters. It's comfort, recognition, affection -- perfect for two former lovers who still care about each other very much. And if you think about where they are at that point -- Buffy preparing for the fight of her life, Angel just finished making a deal with the devil -- it really makes sense for them to take that brief moment to enjoy each other even though they know it won't lead to anything more.

The Immortal never bothered me at all. The idea of him cracks me up, especially because I think he and his...attributes are really supposed to be all for Angel & Spike's benefit. It really isn't about Buffy at all at that point, and you can pretty much make up any story you want to explain what he's like and why Buffy's with him.

My pleasure. :)

it really makes sense for them to take that brief moment to enjoy each other even though they know it won't lead to anything more.
Yes, exactly. (And I have also written a fic about it... I am far too obsessed for my own good!)

I think he and his...attributes are really supposed to be all for Angel & Spike's benefit.
Heh. Well put. :)

Like Mefnord, the idea of Buffy being with someone else never bothered me, but I really didn't care for the Immortal idea or the way it was done. They're all moving on but...only not? It just seemed like a way to slap a band-aid on an old plotline without having to actually deal with it, which is dumb because they wouldn't really have to if they didn't bring it up in the first place.

Really, it's just an excuse to have Spike and Angel on a motor bike in Italy! *g*

I do mind the kiss but I don't mind the Immortal, she's allowed to move on god help her! Besides he's so obviously only a fleeting fancy whether or not she ever gets back with Spike (I was going to say rither of her vampires, but I think the Angel thing is properly dead).

I have a far more unpopular fandom opinion that might just shake the world: I don't think Spike is sexy.

Well the kiss was really all about Spike, so I see why it was there...

I don't think Spike is sexy
Well after taking my smelling salts I have sufficiently recovered to say that I guess it isn't unpopular, just - rare. As in David Attenborough trying to spot it rare!

I would to clarify that. I love Spike to bits. I fancy him rotten, but I believe any sexiness he has exhibited (in season 6, for example) is all an act and isn't inate.

I have a whole essay on this, I just can't be arsed to finish it!

Aaaah. I see. I would love to read your essay! :)

Maybe one day. :)

I don't mind Buffy dating the Immortal either.

As for the B/A kiss - I'm not sure I agree it's closure but in a way I think it's there as much for Spike's benefit as anything. It's supposed to be his final test and he passes it.

Also, the B/A 'You'll never be friends' scene in Lovers Walk gives me the willies now because Spike almost echoes it in SR just before he almost rapes Buffy. It's how he sees love in his enforced soulless adolescence whereas Buffy is already older than she was then and can see the flaws in what he says, even if she couldn't see them back in season 3.

YOu're right. Spike is talking about himself. It's just at the time, what he says resonates with Buffy and Angel because of the doomed love thing.

Though of course Buffy's ideal of love post-Angel is one in which she never has to open up emotionally and risk getting hurt at all. It's why neither Riley nor Spike, in the end, can believe that she loves them; she's gone from one extreme to another.

I agree that's the way it came across to me at first. I was convinced that the Angel/Angelus thing had traumatised Buffy emotionally forever. After re-watching season 7 I'm not so sure this is so, though I agree at times the execution was clumsy.

I don't think we're supposed to see her as traumatized forever; I think the business with the burning hands and telling Spike she loved him was supposed to signify, among other things, that his willing sacrifice healed the scars from Angel's unwilling one. Presumably we're supposed to assume Buffy goes on to have fat grandchildren with a nice insurance salesman, or a glamorous fling with the Immortal, or both. Unfortunately I was so detached from Buffy by the end of the show that her prospects of future happiness with characters I don't know or care about was less than satisfying.

I feel more attached to Buffy after re-watching season 7. However, I'm still not particularly interested in her life after Sunnydale unless it features Spike and Angel (or just Spike, but not just Angel). My interest in her is all bound up with them.

That's one reason why I've so little interest in the upcoming comic series by Joss, even though he's said it'll be canon.

See I never saw that. It was so obvious to me that she loved Spike. And it had to be him also - I thought it was very strange when I found fandom that there were people who believed that she didn't. Or that he didn't believe her.

A lot of people have traumatic teenage years. Doesn't mean that they're dommed forever! :)

As I said above, I don't think we're supposed to see her as traumatized forever. I think we're supposed to assume that admitting she loved Spike fixed her and she goes on to have a happy life with someone I don't care about. The catch being, of course, that I don't care about them.

But I don't think Spike believed her. None of his actions make any sense if he believed her--unless you assume that he's avoiding her 'for her own good.' That may have been noble when Angel did it when Buffy was eighteen, but it's a good deal more insulting when she's twenty-two and supposedly a functioning adult.

I'm horribly busy, but I actually wrote an essay about why Spike stayed in LA. Not very long.

Well, yes, loyalty and affection for Angel, and a desire to fight the good fight are all part of Spike's reasons for staying in L.A. His main reasons, even. But that doesn't explain why he doesn't pick up a phone and say "Hi, Buffy, I'm alive."

I've never quite understood why it's so necessary for people to believe that Spike knows Buffy loves him. Believing that Buffy DOES love him, yeah, I get why that's necessary. But to me the whole point of Chosen is that Buffy and Spike's positions are finally reversed: Buffy asserts her love and Spike denies it. Dramatic irony. Cassandra's curse is that she prophecies the truth, but her prophecies are never believed. It's tragic, but that's Joss for you.

And in Joss's worldview, to make Spike's sacrifice extra-super-noble with championship on top, he can't be doing it for love or the expectation of being loved. Hence him seeing Angel and Buffy kiss, and Buffy's refusal to admit their night together meant anything. It's all so Spike can go to his martyrdom free of the taint of mere human, selfish love.

It never fails to amaze me how we all watch exactly the same show, and yet come away with such different impressions.

But that doesn't explain why he doesn't pick up a phone and say "Hi, Buffy, I'm alive."
Because James Marsters had a contract.

why it's so necessary for people to believe that Spike knows Buffy loves him.
Well for me it's *obvious* that he knows it. From as far back as 'Lovers Walk' Buffy admitted that she couldn't hide her feelings from Spike. It's quite simply not conceivable that he didn't know.

to me the whole point of Chosen is that Buffy and Spike's positions are finally reversed
I can see where you're coming from, but I that was never ever what I saw. See their conversation is an (almost) exact mirror of 'Dead Things':

BUFFY: I have to do this. Just let me go.
SPIKE: I can't. I love you.
BUFFY: (upset) No, you don't.
SPIKE: (harshly) You think I haven't tried not to?

SPIKE: I mean it! I gotta do this.
BUFFY: I love you.
SPIKE: No, you don't. But thanks for saying it. Now go!

This is the difference a soul makes - in DT Spike was unable to let her go, couldn't understand the *need* to do the right thing. In Chosen he does, and grasps the opportunity with both hands. And notice that it's not until Buffy has *accepted* his choice that she reveals her feelings - she's not trying to manipulate him into coming with her. And his response is not a denial out of dis-belief, but an instruction, just like Buffy's was back in the alley. If there had been time she might have called him on it, but as it was I think she understood what he meant. His death was a gift to her.

The kiss I've dealt with (and yes I *do* think that was a test of sorts to determine whether Spike's love was truly selfless, the way he'd professed it in 'Touched'. It was stupid and contrived, but there ya go. Can't change it now.)

Buffy's refusal to admit their night together meant anything
Gah! She never said that! She said the opposite! Spike tried to brush the whole thing under the rug, but *Buffy* called him on it, *Buffy* said that he'd given her back strength and self-belief, *Buffy* said that it meant something. Now what that meant for them as a couple she didn't know. End of the world round the corner etc. And before she could change her mind *Spike* said to just leave it.

I think the whole point of Chosen was that it was Spike's love for Buffy - and her's for him - was what saved the world. She loved a vampire once, and because of that the world nearly went to hell. But with Spike her love gave the world a champion, that not even the biggest baddest evil ever could destroy, and he saved the world - gave his life so she could live, just like she'd given her life for her sister's once.

Because James Marsters had a contract.

Yes, that's the explanation in the real world. But that's irrelevant in the story world, where neither James Marsters nor his contract exist.

Well for me it's *obvious* that he knows it. From as far back as 'Lovers Walk' Buffy admitted that she couldn't hide her feelings from Spike. It's quite simply not conceivable that he didn't know.

See, I think he believed that she loved him for some period in S6. Because he thought he knew what kind of girl she was--the kind of girl who wouldn't sleep with a guy unless she loved him or was about to love him. But I think Seeing Red and then getting his soul broke that. Once Spike got his soul, he couldn't believe Buffy ever loved him--because he was an evil disgusting thing. I mean, he SAYS in NLM that in getting his soul, he finally realized that she was just using him and that she didn't spare him from staking out of love. All during S7, he's interpreting everything she does in light of his conviction that she doesn't love him.

Now, his conviction may be wrong, but that's what he's acting on. If you assume that Spike believes Buffy does not love him, and doesn't even need him as muscle any longer (because there are a jillion other Slayers now), then his refusal to contact her in any way after his deghosting makes sense. He's being kind of a coward, because even if she really doesn't love him, she cared for him in some way, and deserves the courtesy of a phone call.

But if you assume that he knows she loves him and is still refusing to let her know he's alive, well, then, he's not a coward, he's a jerk, and she's better off without him.

And you're right, even if Spike is convinced that Buffy loves him in Chosen, he would have chosen to burn up to save the world anyway. But if that's the case, then there's absolutely no reason for him to deny that she loves him--what is the point? Even if you see it as a reflection of the alley scene, in the alley scene Buffy was desperately trying to deny the reality of Spike's love, not for Spike's own good, but because it upset her. If Spike is trying to do the same to her, then again, he's a jerk.

That's what it comes down to: either the last thing Spike said to Buffy was a pretty lie, however well-meant, or it was the truth. Painful as it may be, I would rather believe that two heroes who had been through everything they had together could tell one another the truth at they saw it, there at the end of things.

Sorry I'm so slow! Um... you make a lot of good points, and really the whole thing comes down to different perspectives. I don't think that Spike 'was certain' that Buffy loved him, in the same way Angel always was f.ex. I think Buffy and Spike were just at the beginning of something, and both were hestating when it came to showing their cards.

In the 'he believed her' column I'd put the fact that he tried to get to her as soon as he could, except he couldn't leave the city limits as a ghost. And that the first thing he did (*almost*) when becoming corporeal was intending to set off to Europe. He got delayed by the fake prophecy (which might also have opened his eyes to the fact that he *might* be 'the vampire in question'), and then changed his mind... and when he speaks to Harmony later he never mentiones Buffy not loving him as a reason to stay.

Anyway... I have three recs that say the stuff I want to say very well:

The Way it Works by Kimi (ficlet, immediately post-Chosen)

Chosen Essay by

the_royal_anna. You must read this, if you never have before! Because... wow! Seriously!

And finally, this is the last chapter of my first fic - set in AtS S5 (post-TGiQ). It has Riley and Sam turning up and stuff, but the end is all about Angel and Spike - and Buffy. All you need to know is that Angel, Nina, Riley, Sam and Spike are in a bar, and are very drunk. Sorry about the self-pimp, but it says what I think about Spike in S5 better than anything else I've written: Chapter 10.

Buffy's refusal to admit their night together meant anything
Gah! She never said that! She said the opposite! Spike tried to brush the whole thing under the rug, but *Buffy* called him on it, *Buffy* said that he'd given her back strength and self-belief, *Buffy* said that it meant something. Now what that meant for them as a couple she didn't know. End of the world round the corner etc. And before she could change her mind *Spike* said to just leave it.

But the point is, Spike (because he's seeing everything through a "She doesn't love me, don't get your hopes up" filter) sees "Does it have to mean anything?" as "It doesn't mean anything." And while I can understand why Buffy is spooked, you have to admit that's just about the worst possible thing she could have said, right up there with "The only thing better than killing a Slayer is f--"

If Spike were convinced that Buffy loved him, they would never have had that conversation in the fist place.

'doomed'

*facepalm*

Actually the whole thing is a muddle. *sigh* Can you work it out?

It's supposed to be his final test and he passes it.
That's it. A plot point, rather than a character point.

because Spike almost echoes it in SR
Clem also repeats 'Love is a funny thing'. Antoher point is the trust issue - she says she has feelings, but could never trust him enough to love him. This, I think, ties back to 'Lie To Me' when she tells Angel 'I love you. I don't know if I trust you.' She learned a hard lesson.

Horay a Spuffy spin on all things crappy. Gotta love that ;)

Dude, it's my speciality! :)

I don't mind the Immortal in theory, only in execution. And the B/A kiss will always bother me because it was a little too lingery (what? it's a word!) for my taste. If she hadn't cuddled with Spike in bed, it wouldn't grate my cheese so much, but she did, so it does.

Heh. Yes, it's a 'nice' kiss and all - but in the end she chose Spike. :)

That's true. You have a wonderful outlook. I wish Spike had stayed to see Buffy send Angel away.

Well what's the point in being miserable? *g*

And yes it would have been nice if he'd overheard *that* part of the conversation.

You're so funny! XD
I quote everything you say about Spike's epic speech. About the Immortal guy .. at first I was very disappointed. I was hoping to see SMG, even for just 30 second, but she didn't show up. (So I wasn't disappointed specifically about the Immortal, but because Sarah wasn't in the episode) I find the whole Immortal-thing kinda funny and believable, knowing Buffy, and was very busy laughing about Angelus and William. Maybe the bad thing is that Buffy was treated like "some girl", even by Angel who said that her eyes are blue. (Really Angel? WTF?!) And I prefer no Buffy to fake-dancing-Buffy, it feels more honest to me.

OT: In the Spuffel I'm writing, Angel and Spike leaves Buffy for a year, after an happy and long-lasting threesome relantionship, and when they come back, she's pregnant from some random guy. In the end turns out as an opportunity to raise a child together, so Angel and Spike are somehow very lucky! XD

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