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The ship that Joss never sank!
I am *so* bored. And tired. I don't want to do housework - instead I'll do a little something to contribute to the Summer of Love:
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shapinglight - this is for you! :) Hopefully this’ll cheer you up whenever you’re down, although I don’t suppose it says anything new. But still - here it is.
Recently I’ve read a couple of interviews with David Fury. (A short one and a long one.) They were very interesting...
First a few tidbits about Spike’s characterisation:
Fury was questioned on how Spike had been written this season [AtS S5]. Fury indicated he was aware of the criticism and he understood that Spike was in a different place at the end of last season with Buffy, but that sweet, sensitive Spike, though very likeable, would quickly become a very boring character to write. He said he loved Spike with attitude, and that the other issue was that Angel and Spike fall back into old patterns when they come together.
Later in the evening, Fury was asked to please stop writing Spike as being stupid in all his episodes. Fury was confused, and said when did he write Spike as stupid. He was told that someone says he's stupid in every episode. He again asked for examples. The puppet ep was mentioned -- he pointed out he didn't write that one. :-) He then added that "Spike isn't stupid. Angel calls him stupid, but that's just because he's jealous of him."
Now the interviews also made me think about ships in the Joss verse. When it comes to relationships Joss is a bastard, and that’s pretty much that. If there’s a couple that is happy and content, we know that they are DOOMED! I’m not even going to bother with examples, except to point out that by the end of BtVS, every single ship was gone (except for Willow/Kennedy which I don’t really count, since it’s more of a rowing boat in a paddling pool that a ship! *g*). Joss builds up only to take away again. And it was even worse on AtS! But this is where the interviews come in. Because there is one ship in the ‘verse which has been there almost from the start, that is canon and can survive forever:
JOZIC: ...Angel, on the other hand, has always been full of struggle and characters are always dying so I thought the end was very much in keeping with that struggle, that keep on fighting sort of…
FURY: The interesting thing is, all the people Angel started out with are all dead now.
JOZIC: Yeah, a friend of mine pointed that out right after that episode.
FURY: Unlike Buffy who ended up with her three friends and were able to end in that way, in Angel's case, everybody that he's ever been close to dies, which is really Angel's story - that he will always outlive the people he cares about. He has gone on and on, he has seen people he loves die, which is another reason that he and Buffy realized they couldn't be together. He being a vampire, he will watch her die.
[This is of course also the main obstacle to Spike/Buffy. Unless he shanshus of course...]
But the fact that he was side-by-side with Spike was kind of a wonderful turnaround in the mythology of the series.
JOZIC: There's Butch and Sundance right there.
FURY: That's absolutely right. That's one thing that I really wanted to do in episode 100 when I was trying to break it. I really wanted to have Spike and Angel fight side-by-side. I was desperate to put that in my episode but it was for a later time.
See? Spike and Angel get to stay together! Which is only confirmed by this line, which is apparently pretty much a direct quote about AtS S5:
Spike and Angel is the true love story of this season.
As if we didn’t know... *g* So there you are - Spangel is the only ship that Joss didn’t sink! Which makes it pretty darn extraordinary. Although this icon says it all, really. :)
shapinglight - this is for you! :) Hopefully this’ll cheer you up whenever you’re down, although I don’t suppose it says anything new. But still - here it is. Recently I’ve read a couple of interviews with David Fury. (A short one and a long one.) They were very interesting...
First a few tidbits about Spike’s characterisation:
Fury was questioned on how Spike had been written this season [AtS S5]. Fury indicated he was aware of the criticism and he understood that Spike was in a different place at the end of last season with Buffy, but that sweet, sensitive Spike, though very likeable, would quickly become a very boring character to write. He said he loved Spike with attitude, and that the other issue was that Angel and Spike fall back into old patterns when they come together.
Later in the evening, Fury was asked to please stop writing Spike as being stupid in all his episodes. Fury was confused, and said when did he write Spike as stupid. He was told that someone says he's stupid in every episode. He again asked for examples. The puppet ep was mentioned -- he pointed out he didn't write that one. :-) He then added that "Spike isn't stupid. Angel calls him stupid, but that's just because he's jealous of him."
Now the interviews also made me think about ships in the Joss verse. When it comes to relationships Joss is a bastard, and that’s pretty much that. If there’s a couple that is happy and content, we know that they are DOOMED! I’m not even going to bother with examples, except to point out that by the end of BtVS, every single ship was gone (except for Willow/Kennedy which I don’t really count, since it’s more of a rowing boat in a paddling pool that a ship! *g*). Joss builds up only to take away again. And it was even worse on AtS! But this is where the interviews come in. Because there is one ship in the ‘verse which has been there almost from the start, that is canon and can survive forever:
JOZIC: ...Angel, on the other hand, has always been full of struggle and characters are always dying so I thought the end was very much in keeping with that struggle, that keep on fighting sort of…
FURY: The interesting thing is, all the people Angel started out with are all dead now.
JOZIC: Yeah, a friend of mine pointed that out right after that episode.
FURY: Unlike Buffy who ended up with her three friends and were able to end in that way, in Angel's case, everybody that he's ever been close to dies, which is really Angel's story - that he will always outlive the people he cares about. He has gone on and on, he has seen people he loves die, which is another reason that he and Buffy realized they couldn't be together. He being a vampire, he will watch her die.
[This is of course also the main obstacle to Spike/Buffy. Unless he shanshus of course...]
But the fact that he was side-by-side with Spike was kind of a wonderful turnaround in the mythology of the series.
JOZIC: There's Butch and Sundance right there.
FURY: That's absolutely right. That's one thing that I really wanted to do in episode 100 when I was trying to break it. I really wanted to have Spike and Angel fight side-by-side. I was desperate to put that in my episode but it was for a later time.
See? Spike and Angel get to stay together! Which is only confirmed by this line, which is apparently pretty much a direct quote about AtS S5:
Spike and Angel is the true love story of this season.
As if we didn’t know... *g* So there you are - Spangel is the only ship that Joss didn’t sink! Which makes it pretty darn extraordinary. Although this icon says it all, really. :)
no subject
Though I always have to roll my eyes at the "He'll watch her DIE!" thing--like any normal guy Buffy hooks up with isn't also going to watch her die, unless she retires from slaying altogether? And even then, she could get hit by a bus. And wait, hasn't Buffy outlived both Spike and Angel TWICE now?
no subject
Too true.
Though I always have to roll my eyes at the "He'll watch her DIE!" thing
I also just don't believe Spike would let that particular line of reasoning keep him from her, if he thought they were really meant to be together (and that she actually loved him). Obviously, he's fully capable of leaving her alone for other reasons, but because she'll age and he won't? I don't think that's something that would even occur to him to be a problem.
no subject
Amen.
no subject
Now that is a good observation! :)
Though I always have to roll my eyes at the "He'll watch her DIE!" thing
See I think that's a very specific Angel thing. He leaves (several times) for her own good! Refusing to let her have a say. Watching her die is something he and Spike have both already done so that's nothing new - being willing to cope with it is something else.
no subject
To be serious, I think that what Joss likes is the sexual tension, once the couple is settled the 'ship lost its appeal to him but sinking it then is quite appealing.
Spike and Angel weren't a couple so the 'ship could sail.
no subject
It totally is! I still remember laughing my head off when I first saw it. And yes, Spike and Angel no doubt did all sorts of things in their wicked past!
Spike and Angel weren't a couple so the 'ship could sail.
Excellent observation. I like it. :)
no subject
I remember thinking prior to the end of S7 that the last-minute secret weapon would end up being Dawn, using her little-understood keyness to somehow seal the Hellmouth and prevent it from opening again (but killing her in the process). It seemed to me that would be a good reversal of S5. But I remember Joss saying that it couldn't be a happy ending if Buffy lost her sister or any of the Scoobies so it wasn't to be.
Of course sacrificing Spike a second time at the end of AtS would have been too much so it ended up being Wes. But I rather wonder if Spike and Angel going out side by side wasn't really more of a sibling unification in Joss's mind, that family is ultimately more important than romantic relationships, more enduring.
no subject
Me too. :) And it's addictve to write!
the last-minute secret weapon would end up being Dawn
Oooh I read a 'fake' Chosen script where Dawn knocked Spike out and took the necklace. He got it back, but she was definitely willing to make the sacrifice. Dunno who wrote it though.
it ended up being Wes
It ended up being EVERYONE! Brilliant though.
Spike and Angel going out side by side wasn't really more of a sibling unification in Joss's mind
Yes, I think so. The sibling-like rivalry is wonderful, as is the way they stand shoulder to shoulder as soon as there is a crisis! *happy sigh*
no subject
I agree that Spike/Angel is one 'ship that Joss never sunk. Of course, he would never have dared make it fully set sail in the first place, American TV being what it is (it probably wouldn't have worked over here either). However, for me, that's a good thing. We got just enough text to support the 'ship if we want to and if we don't, there's still all the good brothers-and-rivals stuff.
As far as I'm concerned, they're still out there now, fighting and arguing and shagging like bunnies (or not, if one prefers it that way) because they're sort-of King Arthur like eternal champions or whatever.
I've seen the Fury quotes before and can never understand how he couldn't see they were writing Spike as stupid that season (or at least some of them were - Goddard/DeKnight when collaborating, for instance) though I do accept that just because Angel says it doesn't make it true.
no subject
As far as I'm concerned, they're still out there now, fighting and arguing and shagging like bunnies (or not, if one prefers it that way) because they're sort-of King Arthur like eternal champions or whatever.
You and me both! :)
I've thought about the whole 'stupid' thing, and a lot of it comes down to FFL... look at this:
SPIKE: Oh, I'm sorry. Did I sully our good name? We're vampires.
ANGELUS: All the more reason to use a certain amount of finesse.
SPIKE: Bollocks! That stuff's for the frilly cuffs-and-collars crowd. I'll take a good brawl any day!
~~~
ANGELUS: No. A real kill. A good kill. It takes pure artistry. Without that, we're just animals.
SPIKE: Poofter!
I think being around Angel brings out that side of Spike, soul or no soul. If Angel is going to be the big nancy boy boss, then Spike is going to be as rude and annoying as he can! ;)