elisi | Because I'm incapable of shutting up my brain...

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buffy has taken over my brain

Because I'm incapable of shutting up my brain...

So, AOQ is up to 'I Was Made To Love You'. And he did not like it. Oh no. So I (we) actually re-watched it last night and it's a very, very good episode. Thoughts below the cut - but be warned, they're seriously jumbled up. Parts are from my response to AOQ, others are musings on DT.

Thoughts on IWMTLY
I found it pretty close to Excellent. A solid Good at any rate. Seriously. As I said before, the ideas it throws out are fascinating. I think it's a very logical follow-up to last weeks ep. (Crush). Because IWMTLY is all about love - what exactly is it? People are already discussing whether April was capable of real feelings, and how much emotion a robot can posses (why *did* her batteries last that long?)... remind you of anything? Superficially it's about Buffy coming to terms with single life (or rather not settling for just anything), but I think there's more to it than that. Buffy, Spike, Warren, Joyce and April are all searching for love. But love can't be manufactured - Warren made April 'to be perfect' and yet he grew bored with her and fell for Katrina instead. Because she surprised him. Buffy is looking for love, but realises that a relationship is not the same as love. Joyce seems the most sensible one - she's nervous of course, but she wants to find out who Brian is, see if they click, see what might be if they're both open to it.

(Also compare and contrast S5 Buffy with S2 Buffy in how she deals with Joyce's potential boyfriend. True he isn't a robot (at least as far as we know), but S2 Buffy was the epitome of sulky teen. I like the grown up version better.)

See there are incredibly strong parallels between Spike and April. Both were 'made to love someone' - to be the perfect partner. As we saw in FFL Dru chose William specifically as a companion because she was lonely. She wanted someone focussed only on her, because 'Daddy' was too wrapped up in Darla. But love isn't predictable, it's a very dangerous thing.

And what *is* love? Both April and Spike think that what they feel is love - does that make it so? (Think of it in the light of 'Blade Runner'.) Notice how Buffy tells Warren to 'break up properly' with April. To shut her down completely. Just like she did herself with Spike in 'Crush'. And yet, she sits with April as she slowly fades away - talking to her like she was real. (That whole conversation is brilliant - like Buffy talking with her own sub conscious. Maybe if she waits long enough *her* boyfriend will come back and say he's sorry...)

Warren... hmmm. I noticed that he used the word 'deserve'. He felt that he 'deserved' a relationship. Do we all deserve true love? And the way he told April that Buffy was the target... not nice. Understandable, but not nice. Generally he does a lot of walking away - doesn't want to deal with the consequences of his actions. Which sounds rather like Spike actually... [ETA: In this episode!]

~~~

See we already have a lot of the parallels that'll come into play in DT: Spike is Warren and Spike is April. But Buffy... Buffy isn't part of it yet. Although this scene says a lot:

TARA: But it's so weird. I mean, everyone wants a nice normal person to share with, but this guy, if he couldn't find that, I guess it's ... kinda sad.
Shot of Buffy staring at her hands.

I'm not going to go into all the stuff about reality, because I'd never get back out (and the baby woke up and is now sitting on my lap so I have to be swift), but I wanted to compare and contrast these two lines, because they show what Warren became - or rather what he made himself become:

IWMTLY:
WARREN: I mean, she's perfect. I don't know, I ... I guess it was too easy. And predictable. You know, she got boring. She was exactly what I wanted, and I didn't want her. I thought I was going crazy. Then something happened. Katrina was in my engineering seminar, and she was really funny and cool. You know, she was always givin' me a hard time, real ... unpredictable. She builds these little model monorails that run with magnets, and ... Anyway. I fell in love with Katrina.

DT:
WARREN: Look at her, man! The the shape of her lips. The smooth, silky skin. The way her nose- the way her nose crinkles when she laughs... (softly) She's perfect.

::shudders:: Damn that's disturbing...

You should also all go read this essay, it is *superb*: Mary Sue Goes Septic: Warren Meers.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

I think that one big problem with the episode the first time around is that it centers too much on people we don't know and don't know why we should care about. On reviewing we see a lot of interesting things regarding Warren, but I remember being pretty bored the first time around too.

Generally he does a lot of walking away - doesn't want to deal with the consequences of his actions. Which sounds rather like Spike actually...
I'm really interested in knowing what exactly you mean here. My first reaction was that that doesn't sound like Spike at all, but then I figured you might be referring to DT and how he's just not interested in the dead body, but even that doesn't work for me. His "problem" in that episode isn't Katrina, but Buffy, and he doesn't walk away from her when she needs him. He even forces her to accept his help against her will. Another thing that immediately popped into my mind was Bargaining. I see that as Spike dealing with the consequences of not being able to save Dawn and Buffy. I don't think he'd have been nearly as devoted to helping out if he hadn't felt like it was his fault.

DT:
WARREN: Look at her, man! The the shape of her lips. The smooth, silky skin. The way her nose- the way her nose crinkles when she laughs... (softly) She's perfect.

::shudders:: Damn that's disturbing...
Not to mention Warren's creepy giggling when he presents the Buffybot to Spike and talks about the "special programming". I mean who doesn't believe that Warren took it for a "test drive". "shudders" Because that means all his interactions with Buffy have a layer of "I've seen you naked and done things to you" which is beyond icky.

And you are right about the Warren essay. Excellent points about not only Warren but also Jonathan and Xander.

I remember being pretty bored the first time around too.
Yes it's rather slow - even on a re-watch. And of coures it's not really possible to forget what comes after...

I'm really interested in knowing what exactly you mean here.
Oh I only meant this episode specifically. Spike tries to flirt with Buffy (which considering that last they saw each other he tied her up and threatened to kill her is quite something), and then he attempts to get the Scoobies on board, which of course doesn't work at all. Finally he gives up compeletely and orders the Bot. Of course the *difference* between him and Warren is that Spike learns from his mistakes as you pointed out. Esp. as concerns Dawn.

Very interesting, though I've always baulked at Spike/Warren comparisons even when they're obvious. So what did AOQ think? I'd look for myself, I guess, but I've no desire to have yet another run-in with the rabid Spike-haters. Been there, done that, got the scars.

Ick! I'd never thought about it that way! I need to go wash my brain now! Gah!

I find the Warren/Spike comparisons fascinating - because Warren is by far the worse creep. Spike learns from his mistakes, and tries to do better, even if he fails. Warren *doesn't*! He just keep sliding down that slippery slope. They're on opposite paths, meeting in the middle before parting company for good...

AOQ found it beyond dull. Thought the device of Buffy having to fight a 'perfect girlfriend' to realise that she didn't want to become one herself rather poor and couldn't have cared less for Warren...

I really need to go leave some fedback one of these days...

I just saw DT as a deterrend from what I should be really doing - and I have to say I have forgotten how deeply depressing that episode was. Poor, poor Buffy, all alone...

And for the first time I got what JM meant when he said he played Spike too sympathetic - if her weren't the eye candy that he is, his actions and words and everything in this episode would be pure evil. Calling Buffy an animal? Just as an example, this is "acceptable" within his moral standards (which are non-existant), but really really isn't for Buffy. And I, as a viewer, should be outraged and disgusted (poor Buffy)that he doesn't know her well enough not to call her that and yet thinks he's in love with her... but Nekkid!Spike is just too pretty. And grumbly. And so I'm all - Buffy, it's a compliment!! Stay!!! More nakedness!

Hee. I ramble, so I don't have to do things... Sorry.

I haven't seen the episode in quite some time, at least a few years, but my general feeling looking back on it is that it's all a front, Spike putting on an act, pretending it's not a big deal, even though we know he thinks it's a huge deal being denied access to Buffy, her house and her life.

I think there could be something to be said for him simply not understanding how dire the consequences are and feeling like they're all overreacting, but I don't think that kind of understanding really comes naturally until the soul. I think that he learns the true consequences of his actions in season 5 and 6 only by what it does to the people he cares about, but there's no innate understanding. And in the end, that's why I think Spike needs a soul. He can learn the appropriate responses, but he can't feel them, and he and Buffy can never be equals in a relationship until he has his own individual moral compass and isn't mooching off of hers.

I love that episode. But then I love all of Jane's underrated episodes (yes, even DMP *g*)

Spike putting on an act, pretending it's not a big deal
Oh yes. And he tries to downplay what he did too - "The Slayer and I were working together..." Definitely not in a good place.

Don't have anything else to say really, since I agree with everything you wrote! :)

I love DMP too! :)

I have forgotten how deeply depressing that episode was.
Oh I *know*! And yet I love it...

if her weren't the eye candy that he is, his actions and words and everything in this episode would be pure evil.
Hmmmm, yes and no. It's so terribly complicated, because he *tries* to do good - but it isn't easy since evil is his default position, and it's not like Buffy is being a bright guiding light anymore... *Sigh* Poor both of them!

Enjoyed reading your thoughts.

the ideas it throws out are fascinating. I think it's a very logical follow-up to last weeks ep. (Crush). Because IWMTLY is all about love
Yes, and I agree with you , this episode always held a great appeal to me.

I've re-watched FFL recently and was struck by the sheer beauty , poignancy and power of the scene when Drusilla meets William in that alley , sees him , and decides to take him. It's her choice , what she understand of him pleases her and he will be her companion , the one made to love her.
William was willing too. And his moans of pain and ecstasy mixed together , make me shiver each time..

The idea of Warren creating the perfect lover and falling in love with a real woman says a lot about love and relationships.
The conversation between April and Buffy was a beautiful scene.
That whole conversation is brilliant - like Buffy talking with her own sub conscious. Maybe if she waits long enough *her* boyfriend will come back and say he's sorry... Nods.

I think IWMTLY wasn't appreciated like it should have .

I imagine unspoiled (I can't remember how I felt at the time) this episode might seem like a throwaway. Obviously, it is anything but as AOQ will soon find out. The robot, Warren, the ending--all are going to come into play in the future. It's an excellent episode and Jane did a great set up.

Me, 3... It's rather painful to watch, but that's really the point. I think it catches flak because it isn't sexy and glamorous - but it's life. Almost a neat little summation of Season Six, really.

*is ashamed* I still wish Britney Spears had made her planned guest appearance...

I have to say, I am with you for most points, but I can't really apply "brilliant" to Buffy's end conversation with April. It's the part of her character I find least appealing - her lifelong habit of pretending to talk about others' problems as a very thinly veiled discussion of her own. I also find it to be a bit too overt - because the thought-themes that you have carefully picked out in this essay are made so overt as to almost blast the metaphor. But that's me. :)

And thankyouthankyouthankyou for the link to that "Mary Sue Goes Septic." Now I am sitting at work with a curdled belly, trying to work through all of this, all while being extremely creeped out. Oh, Buffy. I remember when I had never seen you (a year ago, is all!) and I thought about nice normal things like the news all day. :)

I always liked IWMTLY--it's not the best ep ever, but it's a very decent stand-alone and brings up a lot of interesting parallels when looked at in the context of the season and the series.

Spike does some fairly awful things in this episode, true, but calling Buffy an animal in bed honestly never struck me as one of them--I mean, it's usually an admiring comment, isn't it? Animal in bed = uninhibited and passionate. Buffy takes it as an insult because she ties it into her fears that she's not entirely human any longer (and if Spike had the brains of a kumquat he'd have realized that) but I always put that one down to honest miscommunication on the part of both of them rather than an attempt to be cruel.

I mean, it's usually an admiring comment, isn't it? Animal in bed = uninhibited and passionate. I understood Spike's words this way too.

I didn't think that Spike tried to be deliberately cruel , on the contrary. Acting in an animal way when doing it was meant to be a compliment for him , I guess. :)

I agree with everything you say about this episode, but I would add one thing. You said that Spike is April, but I think Riley is also paralleled with April. Re-read this quote by Warren:

You know, she got boring. She was exactly what I wanted, and I didn't want her.

I'm sure that is exactly what Buffy often thought when she looked back on why her relationship with Riley failed. She implied that she had tried to be the perfect girlfriend, but I'm not sure I ever saw that put into action. That's not a dig at Buffy, I just don't believe she seriously attempted to do the traditional girlfriend things. She's not a traditional girl! She always knew that being the Slayer was her first priority, and Riley was going to be a second or even third priority after her family. Riley, on the other hand, tried to be the perfect boyfriend, the one to protect her in times of danger, and the one to comfort her when she was sad. The problem is, Buffy didn't need protecting, and didn't feel she could go to Riley for comfort. (To be honest, I'm not sure why didn't feel she could cry in front of Riley. That was something that always has puzzled me.)

Spike was clearly being shown as the better match for Buffy because he (usually) let her fight her own battles, only serving as back up if she needed it. And since FFL, if not before, she felt she could cry in front of Spike and show her vulnerability. Kind of ironic that she didn't mind looking vulnerable in front of her sworn enemy, but there you go, that's what makes the Buffy/Spike story so interesting.

Initially probably not. But he sees how she reacts to the comment and still presses the point so he's either incredibly dumb or at best condenscending.

I agree that Spike intents the comment as a compliment, but while watching it, I felt it truly offensive towards Buffy, not only because of her fears of having come back wrong, but also because it is IMO not something Buffy would ever see as a positive attribute. I think she sees herself more as a "Vanilla" kind of girl, or would like to see herself as such during that period of her life. To explain further: I think she yearns not only for a "normal" relationship as seen in S4/5, but also for a feeling of appreciation and protection and love (as the love of the Scoobies is tainted with her resurrection, Giles has left her and Dawn needs some being loved herself), yearns for a feeling of coming home - things that are a antithesis to wild animal sex of passion and lust and w/o love in her mind.

Maybe. I suck at the meta.

I opt for incredibly dumb - it's a compliment in his book and so he's sticking with it - regardless how Buffy reacts. So one of the minus points of being soulless. It's love, but not loving...

I don't know. Not sure he's dumb regarding Buffy's reactions , but he so often put his foot in his mouth , that's true . I would put his words in this category.
He presses when he asks : 'Do you want to see the bites mark ?' Even knowing she won't like it.
So condescending , certainly.

I don't know, I don't think Buffy would really like the nice soft vanilla relationship that she thinks she wants. She's got this idea of a normal life, that everyone tells her she should want, but I can't imagine a personality as naturally dominant as Buffy to be trully happy in a longterm relationship like that.

But then I see Buffy in charge, constantly, always. It's what I like about her, she doesn't have a genuinely submissive bone in her body.

Oh yes, yes, I agree. Obviously I forgot to mention the part where I think that (my) Buffy's apparent desire for a loving relationship in S6 (all the while punishing herself and pushing herself to some feelings by taking advantage of that un-loving relationship with Spike) is NOT what she really is made for.

I think she's cut out for some rough and tumble - but she is in no place to admit that in S6. Hence her disappointment at not having had herself altered on a substantial level during the resurrection, I think.

Well, yeah, agreed, Buffy doesn't want to believe that of herself. But I would bet that if Riley had said something similar, she wouldn't have been nearly so freaked. It's not just what Spike's saying, it's that it's Spike who's saying it.

Yeah, that Spike is Spike is a big part of that, I am sure.

But you got me thinking about Riley and I just cannot imagine the words "You're such an animal" out of his mouth, other than in a cute way. Maybe. If he was drunk. And thinking of kittens. Ot baby seals. Heee. Which would make it sooo much more acceptable to Buffy.

And while I'm sure I'd ever only want that cute way in my life, I *love* the dirty Spike-way very much on TV!

Oh, well, I suppose he'll see the point of Warren when he watches season 6.

The scene where Spike comes to the Magic Box after the events of "Crush" in an absurdly brave, foolishly optimistic and misguided attempt at damage control never fails to move me.

Having seen Buffy's reaction and knowing she had the Scoobies' loyalty, affection and sympathies, Spike didn't need to feel the wrongness of his actions to know they'd have taken against him as well. Yet he wastes no time bursting into their midsts trying to contain the damage, and his effort to down play his miscalculation/blunder with Buffy is so transparent to the Scoobies and to us that I feel embarrassed for him.

I just think it's a gem of a scene on several levels:

- It illustrates the gulf between Spike's goals for acceptance and his grasp in earning it.

- It highlights Spike's tenacity which is consistent throughout the series; even when the guy knows he doesn't have a hope in hell he still tries.

- With the hindsight of S7, it's notable for demonstrating the difference between Giles' and Buffy's personal command styles in rebuking another. When Giles goes all Ripper on Spike, he gets up in his face and speaks in a voice so low that presumably only Spike can hear. Why? Was it just because his words were that much more powerful and menacing for being delivered in such a contained and deliberate fashion, or was there some element of innate consideration on Giles' part to not unnecessarily cause someone, even the loathsome creature he considered Spike to be, to lose face in public? Contrast with Buffy's criticism of Spike's fighting performance in Get It Done when she makes a public show of it.

- Finally, IMO this scene offers an example of JM at his very best. What he's projecting is so far removed from what he's actually saying here - he displays so much subtlety and nuance - it's scenes like this that remind me why I believe he's such a gifted actor.

was struck by the sheer beauty , poignancy and power of the scene when Drusilla meets William in that alley
It is wonderful indeed. I'm not sure how willing he was - he didn't know what she was offering. But I doubt he ever regretted it.

The idea of Warren creating the perfect lover and falling in love with a real woman says a lot about love and relationships.
It certainly does. I like the jigsaw idea - we needs someone different to fit together with, creating a harmonius whole. :)

I think IWMTLY wasn't appreciated like it should have .
It has the unfortunate problem of coming between two big episodes, so gets overlooked, sadly.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

this episode might seem like a throwaway. Obviously, it is anything but as AOQ will soon find out.
Exactly! *g* Maybe he will learn to like it in retrospect? We can only hope...

I still wish Britney Spears had made her planned guest appearance...
It would have been interesting, but personally I adore the girl who played April. As Darcy said, it's impossible to see past the robot, the performance is that good! :)

her lifelong habit of pretending to talk about others' problems as a very thinly veiled discussion of her own.
I see what you mean. But there is something about the scene - with Buffy comforting a robot as it slowly fades away, repeating age old sayings that it can't possibly understand... and at the same moment Joyce might actully be dying. It's just very poignant. IMHO anyway. :)

I remember when I had never seen you (a year ago, is all!) and I thought about nice normal things like the news all day. :)
Ah yes, the time BF (before fandom...). I know I should probably study Plato instead, but Buffy is more fun! *g*

I think it suffers from being stuck between two Very Important Episodes. And although a stand-alone of sorts (the April story definitely is), it's also the perfect set-up for the whole BuffyBot story line, as well as The Trio in S6.

Which is rather good for a slightly silly story about a girl-friend-bot! :)

I think Riley is also paralleled with April.
Of course! *slaps head* I feel rather stoopid now! *g*

To be honest, I'm not sure why didn't feel she could cry in front of Riley. That was something that always has puzzled me.
I think it has something to do with opening up emotionally on a very deep level. And I don't mean tears like the ones that kept pouring out in 'Triangle' - it was those that came from being utterly, utterly terrified and exhausted when her mother was ill. He might have seen them if he'd happened to have been around at that particular moment, but I'm not sure. Buffy becomes hyper self-reliant in a crisis (f.ex. 'Prophecy Girl' and 'Becoming II').

Kind of ironic that she didn't mind looking vulnerable in front of her sworn enemy
I think there was an element of 'Spike doesn't matter'. And - as she says in 'Afterlife' - "I can be alone with you here."

A lot of excellent points!

I don't think Giles was trying to be considerate - although he was probably deliberately keeping himself calm, because it's obvius that he's furious. And quiet menace is a lot more effective!

But yeah - it's all good. I feel for Spike, because he's such an idiot and he's dug himself into a hole, but at the same time the Scoobies are doing exactly what they ought to. :)

How is it that I didn't make the Joyce connection before. wow. So, instead of comforting her dying mother, comforting a dying robot... Now that's a punch to the gut.

*grin* BF is for the birds. Friendly, socially apt people don't sit around and debate Plato. :)

Now that's a punch to the gut.
Isn't it? Although it is slightly unclear since there's the scene with Spike & Warren in between. *hugs poor Buffy*

Friendly, socially apt people don't sit around and debate Plato. :)
Heh. But what does that make us? Since we hang out on the internet and debate a TV show no longer on air... ;)

I enjoyed "I Was Made To Love You," but it's never been one of my favorites, mostly because I hate the way Spike acts and is treated in this section of Season 5 (I should note that I only watched this section of the season once, so my memories may be kinda foggy.) I think the dislike of the episode may partly stem from the intensity of the following episode - it's a hard act to precede "The Body."

Plus, I hated "Crush." Spike just didn't grow morally here, and his attempts to win Buffy were so clumsy that I almost thought he didn't really love her. Thus, I winced when he lied to the gang about what happened. Pain all round.

Buffy Season 2 = Sulky Buffy? I liked Buffy Season 2! She had an emotional openness that she really lacks here. True, she also was a teenager, with issues, but I never thought she was that whiny or self-focused.

Was Spike really made to love Dru? I thought the factors driving her to sire William were more varied than mere desire for a companion - she wanted to display her power (sire any drooling idiot) and make a champion (the best and purest knight in all England). Plus, there's the crazy. Interesting thought, but I don't really see the parallel as strongly between Spike and April here, because of the complexity of the Spike/Dru relationship.

I liked April's death - strangely moving. And swings! Restless moment! Errr, overdoing the prophecy/foreshadowing thing here. Moving on.

Curious to know how Spike is trying to walk away from the consequences of his actions. I don't see that happening - rather, I see him not understanding that there are consequences - he doesn't expect the reactions he gets. The Bot is just one of his soulless ploys, not spurred on by rejections, I think. At this stage, he's still yearning for the embraces (or thinks he is. When he gets the bot he'll know it's more than that).

I love the parallel quotes - that's brilliant. Makes me wonder how many times the writers watch the episodes - and how much of the parallelism is deliberate.

I also think the comparison between Spike and Warren is a bit uneven - Spike is evil, but never misogynistic. A bit of the courtly spirit still informs him (and yes, I know some consider all that chivalry to be misogynistic, but I don't agree).

Completely agree with Jems about the soul and it's necessity - and after thinking about it, I think that's why Spike really has to stay away from Buffy in Angel Season 5 - he needs to be her moral equal independantly of her, not always relying on her.

I love "Dead Things" - and I sympathise with both Buffy and Spike here (and in "Seeing Red"). I think when Buffy came back, Spike still loved her (truly - as she admits in "Conversations with Dead People" and Tara confirms in "Dead Things"), but since his values are on evil first, he doesn't know how to show that love properly. As you say, Buffy isn't helping, either - rewarding him with sex when he's not trying to be a better man just isn't the path to redemption.

I'd rather debate about Aquinas than Plato. Or Augustine. Or Edwards. Plato is way overrated. But Beer! (Kidding - I'm still underage, and have never had beer).

I love the Warren essay - very succint and true. I've never liked Spike or Angel because they were bad (other than that they were good foes to defeat), but for their struggle towards redemption and commentary on the nature of evil. And Spike is pretty cool. Shut up, Andrew. Anyway, I've always thought that those who dismiss "good" characters as boring don't really see the hideous banality of evil. It's interesting at first, but sucks you into worse and worse things - as you see with Angelus. He's cool, powerful, irresistable - and he drives an innocent, tormented girl insane. That's not cool. His sadism and artistry make him horrifying, not attractive. The same with Spike - his bloodlust is not attractive, though his skill at combat is. I hope I'm not the type of Spike fan that others think is scary - I love Spike for his redemption, not his fall.

Anyway, great post, and discussion afterwards is well worth the reading.

I think the dislike of the episode may partly stem from the intensity of the following episode
Yes - it's sat between two heavy weights, which is not an enviable job!

Plus, I hated "Crush."
Oh no! But 'Crush' is *brilliant*! I adore it! I can see why you don't like Spike in it - and ditto for IWMTLY - because it makes me cringe too, but I think it was probably necessary. At the time, I believe the Redemptionistas were getting very vocal, and had decided that 'soulless redemption' was what the show was aiming for re. Spike, because he looooved Buffy! So I guess they tried to show just how clueless Spike was in some ways... before bringing on 'Intervention'! (I've actually got a half-finished essay on 'Crush' sat around in a folder somewhere, I might polish it off and post it if I can find the time!)

I don't really see the parallel as strongly between Spike and April here, because of the complexity of the Spike/Dru relationship.
Well it's all because I can't help but looking forward to 'Dead Things' - and the parallels and mirroring between Spike, Buffy, Warren and Katrina are just endlessly fascinating. Since April is the forerunner for Katrina in that ep, she therefore becomes connected with Spike... but it's rather a tenuous connection - you're absolutely right that Spike/Dru is far more complex! (And ditto the Spike/Warren parallels - I guess it can be seen as mild foreshadowing or something.) As I said to

shapinglight Warren and Spike are on opposite paths - Warren will fall in love with darkness, Spike is in some way in love with light. But their journeys aren't straight or even fixed at this point - that's what makes it so fascinating.

I think that's why Spike really has to stay away from Buffy in Angel Season 5 - he needs to be her moral equal independently of her, not always relying on her.
Exactly! I wrote a little essay about it once, where I said something like 'Can you be a champion and love's bitch?' Because I don't think so... and when they meet again, he'll be his own man. ::)

but since his values are on evil first, he doesn't know how to show that love properly.
::nods:: I'm not even going to being to tackle that, but I guess you've read

the_royal_anna's essay on S6 Buffy and Spike, which lays it all out beautifully!

Beer is highly overrated! I much prefer wine! (Also the law in the US is insane!)

I've always thought that those who dismiss "good" characters as boring don't really see the hideous banality of evil.
Yep! I think it was C. S. Lewis who said something along the lines of all the evil people through history being depressingly similar, whereas the saints were wondrously different. (Have you read Mere Christinanity?) Also Spike only became really interesting once he started fighting his own nature - because there is no bigger foe. (I remember once seeing a picture of a man holding the tail of a dragon and looking very proud. On the tail was written 'smoking' and 'drinking'. On the rest of the dragon were all sorts of more fundamental failings: Greed, Pride, Lust etc. I thought it was excellent!) Which might be why I like the later seasons the best - because the Scoobies have to fight themselves, rather than boring monsters. (My essay on metaphors in S6 is coming along *really* well, I think I might be onto something!)

But - thank you so much for your fascinating comment! :)

Ahh, now my dislike of "Crush" makes some sense. I still wince at how wicked and unattractive Spike's behavior is here (and at his description of love in "Seeing Red"), but I completely agree that if redemptionism (the soulless variety) was being pushed, the writers needed to show Spike's basic affinity with evil. He needed to see that not being good was not okay. Thanks so much for explaining this - it really helps.

"When they meet again..." and they will. Oh yes, they will. :-)

Hmm, have to go look for the essay - I think I read it (I spent several days browsing anna's site) but don't really remember it.

Oh, I love Mere Christianity (and The Screwtape Letters - I wonder if any of the Buffy and Angel writers read that one - the picture of evil is so similar sometimes). I agree that Spike is most interesting when he falls in love with Buffy - he makes me wince in season four and early season five, but his struggles are so powerful in late five, six, and seven. Though I have to say, I love him in season two (both because he's so new and fresh, and because he's behaving very atypically for a vampire, being in love and allying with Buffy and all). And I love "Lover's Walk" - he's so insightful and funny.

Such fun! Keep up all the essays - the metaphors one sounds interesting!

Thanks so much for explaining this - it really helps.
My pleasure. I was even told that some people took Dawn' statement about the vs chip 'Same diff' as being true (what with children being truth speakers and all that...). I find that very odd!

Anna has two superb S/B essays:

My Spike and Buffy
S6 Buffy and Spike

I really wish I could have her brain. She btw was my introduction to fandom (I'd read various reviews and fanfic, but not come across fandom proper) and a very delightful guide she was too! :)

Nothing to add to what you said re. Spike (& C.S. Lewis) - I couldn't agree more! And I am unable to stop writing it seems, except now that it's weekend and the whole RL thing just takes over...

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Because I'm incapable of shutting up my brain...

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