!!!

[elisi]

The AOQ 'Crush' thread is veeeeeeery interesting. And I'm beginning to wonder if maybe he is a bit spoiled... what I can say is that he'll probably enjoy the later seasons. Just look at this exchange:

AOQ:
If Spike is really
that into Buffy to the point where he's denying his vampire identity
(we've seen hints of that), you know what he could try, as a final
act of total desperation? Have Willow make him a soul. There are lots
of issues there, not the least of which being the loophole in the one
curse our heroes know, but I think it's worth pondering.

vague disclaimer:
Hmmm. Same spell, same curse? I can think of little duller than to
re-tread a story that was left as a spent husk 2 years before.

AOQ:
[shrug] I think it might be interesting. We've never seen the kind of
desperation that could drive a vampire to voluntarily seek a soul. And
there's the whole different-characters thing, Spike's reaction to
being ensouled would liekly be very different than anything we've seen
from Angel or Darla, and who knows what kind of character might emerge
from all that?


I mean - wow!

ETA: I was also going to include this exchange between 3DMAster and AOQ. (3DMaster *seriously* hates Spike!):

3DMaster:
Spike never transformed, he's not capable of transformation. What some
writers do or do not think, or claim or do not claim about the show,
matters nothing.

AOQ:
So far, I like the show I'm watching better than the one you're
watching.


Actually, the 3DMaster guy saw a completely different Spike to who we did. Replying to someone else, I quoted the scene where Spike leaves flowers for Joyce. Here's what Mr 3D replied:

'Of course he didn't [leave a card with the flowers], if he did it would be too easy to spot. He probably
planned on Buffy watching him put the flowers there, then walk off, she checks the flowers, there's not card, and she's going all gushy, at least in Spike's mind.'

*shakes head*

Comments

[shapinglight]

This 3DMaster sounds like a right larf.

[elisi]

No kidding. I had a look at his website, and it's got one of those 'Spuffy is rape' banners.

And yet he claims not to be obsessed with Spike...

[liliaeth]

Funny thing is, he's so insane about his obsession that I think he might be doing more good for the sake of getting AOQ to see the good side of Spike than any of us Spike-lovers.*eg*

Just by showing how crazy you'd have to be to be as stuck in the s1 ep1 Buffyverse worldview as he is.

[elisi]

Exactly. Also claiming that he knows what the show is saying better than the writers shows just how deluded he is!

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

Besides the fact that IMO hating a fictional character so much that you become obsessed is just weird, I think you're right in that they unintentionally make more people check out the character in question. And in doing so I suspect many people find said character isn't as horrible as the obsessor makes out.
And yeah, don't you just love this : We've never seen the kind of
desperation that could drive a vampire to voluntarily seek a soul. And
there's the whole different-characters thing, Spike's reaction to
being ensouled would liekly be very different than anything we've seen
from Angel or Darla, and who knows what kind of character might emerge
from all that?

[elisi]

I had to stop myself from squeeing very loudly! :)

And I'll do my very best to ignore the idiot from now on...

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

there's not card, and she's going all gushy, at least in Spike's mind.
That makes no sense at all. The man is very strange.

[suspiria-1.livejournal.com]

3D Master is comedy gold.

[elisi]

Understatement of the century! I have *no* idea how his brain works!

[elisi]

I can just hear him: "It's not funny! The fact that you are laughing means nothing! I say there is no such thing as humour therefore it is true!"

[beloved4always.livejournal.com]

LOL Elisi, I crowed when I read this

and who knows what kind of character might emerge from all that?

and yelled out loud 'we do, we do' lolol. But, like you, I wonder if he already knows about the soul and is just seriously playing us, lol.

As for 3DMASTER and the 4 or 5 others of his ilk that hate Spike with a passion that's almost impossible to believe, they continue to amaze me. As you know I wasn't around during the airing of the show and while I've read some spike-hating essays and meta, I've never been exposed to anything like this. The relentless, super-repetitive, mindless hatred blows me away. No matter what actions or quotes are cited, no matter what writer commentary is quoted, the response never varies. I honestly don't understand why they continued to watch the show if this is the way they felt.

I mean I get the Spike hate and I understand it to a degree but what I don't understand and probably never will is how they clearly don't EVEN _SEE_ what James Marsters is portraying in various scenes. James' non-verbal acting skills are among the best I've ever seen. How can they not see that his facial expression and body language reeks of love in certain scenes? It's almost impossible to believe, which makes me think they do see it, massively reject it with ever fiber of their being and that's why their hate is so obsessive.

Oh, and I cracked up after reading 3DMASTER's response to Lore's well thought out post re obsession - "I'm not obsessed with Spike" LOLOLOL God, what kind of denial land does this guy live in?

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I don't think he is spoiled. A lot of us in season 5 and 6 were speculating on souled Spike being different from Angel, so sounds like he's just on the same track as the rest of us *g*

[elisi]

Well he does go on about not knowing what's to come, it just struck me as particularly apt! *g*

[spikeylover.livejournal.com]

About the 3Dmaster...there is wank and then there is WANK. I can certainly see a different viewpoint on certain issues, but come on. If you are going to argue that Spike is Snidely Whiplash, then at least make some sense doing it.

[elisi]

I wonder if he already knows about the soul and is just seriously playing us, lol.
He did once mention that he'd skimmed S7 fanfic...

The relentless, super-repetitive, mindless hatred blows me away.
Ditto. They're literally sticking their fingers in their ears going "Lalalalala I can't hear you...." It puzzles me greatly. Some of them are less idiotic than the others (KenM is only going to lurk post S5), but it does puzzle me - there's stuff I don't like, but I do my very best to avoid it! And you're absolutely right about JM, his acting is superb, they just refuse to see it which is a great shame.

God, what kind of denial land does this guy live in?</>
Holland apparently.

[molliemole.livejournal.com]

I recently had the pleasure (not) of taking part in a TWOP discussion of JM's acting abilility. Someone said this:

"I mentioned JM's acting because I think its a related symptom. I may have brought up once or twice (or, you know, five thousand times, but whatever) that I think a more subtle actor could have followed through on the writing that seemed to be prevalent in the final two seasons that Spike was the victim/abusee in the Spuffy relationship and that Buffy was just cruel and heartless because she wouldn't love him the way she should have*. But because Marsters is not subtle (wow, is he ever not subtle) the character of Spike came off as a lot more of an ass than the writers ever intended him to appear as. IMO, obviously."

If one doesn't think JM is a subtle actor, then who in the world is? Obviously much of what he's doing is passing far over the heads of some viewers. Sure he's capable of chewing scenery, but only when it's called for. (The crypt scene in 'Crush' comes to mind, when he's ranting about women.) But I can also think of many, many scenes where he conveys emotion only with the twitch of an eyebrow or moving a shoulder slightly or something else just as far removed from scenery chewing as it's possible to get. And I don't think that Spike-haters ever see this. Or maybe it's just that they prefer the DB school of acting.

[elisi]

there is wank and then there is WANK.
Oh but his wank has chocolate sprinkles and christmas lights on top - it's incredible. Here's another quote:

Spike is a vampire he loves to kill so he'd still be killing demons and
thus have a reason of helping the Scoobies, "I'm a bloody animal!"
That's it, that's all, no desire for the writers to explore anything,
they just wanted a popular character permanently on the show.

I just don't understand what he's ON!

[elisi]

Or maybe it's just that they prefer the DB school of acting.
Bwahahahaha! *cough*constipation*cough*

It's odd though, because Darcy (who definitely watches Buffy for the sake of SMG) is adamant that JM is by far the better actor of the two. And as Darcy happens to have done a fair bit of acting, and is intending to make movies (as in write/direct) in the future, I'd say he knows what he's talking about!

But I can also think of many, many scenes where he conveys emotion only with the twitch of an eyebrow or moving a shoulder slightly or something else just as far removed from scenery chewing as it's possible to get.
When he relises that it's Buffy on the stairs in 'Afterlife'... damn. No words will ever do it justice!

[beloved4always.livejournal.com]

Interesting, and smart move not getting involved, lol. But I'd love to read this thread, do you have a link?

I'm not quite sure if I'm reading the posted quote correctly, mainly coz I've never heard anybody say that the writers actually wanted Spike to come across as a victim of Buffy's EVOL in the latter seasons. And, given everything I've read about what went on in fandom and with ME during those years, it's hard to believe that anyone could think that. Is that what s/he is trying to say?

As to JM's skills, subtlety is definitely part of his repertoire, tho, he can, of course, play over-the-top incredibly well too. Which is a good thing coz the character of Spike often required that ;P.

What the whole Spike/JM (apparently never-ending) controversy (war? LOL) says to me is how amazingly complex human perception is and how connected it is to life-experience and expectations. I mean if you've never experienced or seen a certain emotion or don't expect and/or accept it in a certain circumstance, how would you interpret a facial expression conveying that emotion? Just totally fascinating to me.

[mefnord.livejournal.com]

I've been reading your accounts af AOQ land and always enjoyed them greatly, especially your reactions...

I do wonder, though... His predictions and observations seem sometimes almost too spot-on - I'm cynical, but I've to admit that I sometimes think he might have seen every season and plays at it - or he's just very very perceptive...

[suspiria-1.livejournal.com]

Um, this has nothing to do with 3D Master. I wasn't going to say anything but I have to politely disagree that he'll like the later seasons. Spuffy is going to take a dark turn and based on his negative reaction to Cordy/Xander and the end of OOMM before it was revealed that it was just a dream, I don't think he's very fond of cantankerous love/hate type relationships. He tolerated it with C/X, but with Buffy, the hero of the show...for her to fall victim to a shameful yet irresitable attraction that she can't control? Oh Noez!!! She's supposed to better than that.

[elisi]

Oh Noez!!! She's supposed to better than that.
Well we'll see, won't we? As far as I can tell, his main thing is that people should act in character - hence he loved 'Dead Man's Party' and didn't mind the Scoobies being unsympathetic, because it rang true.

Whatever happens - it'll be fun to follow along! :)

[elisi]

I know! But then he does have all of these long term fans dissecting every episode, so he's probably a lot more aware of things than most people watching for the first time...

[azdak.livejournal.com]

I mean I get the Spike hate and I understand it to a degree but what I don't understand and probably never will is how they clearly don't EVEN _SEE_ what James Marsters is portraying in various scenes.

Here I think I have to stick up for The Opposing Point of View because honestly, truly, acting is profoundly ambiguous. It's entirely possible for two people to watch the same actor in the same scene and come away with three separate opinions about what he was doing. A lot depends on context (this becomes painfully clear when trying to vid - facial expressions that I thought told entire stories all by themselves turned out to be wholly uncommunicative when removed from their context). Since the Rabid Spike Haters are watching what the character does within an entirely different context from the rest of us, they see different things when they watch the same actor, because they interpret the cues differently. What I don't understand is why the RSHs feel able to ignore the story in constructing those contexts - I mean, to decide that the trajectory {chip --> falling in love with Buffy --> soul --> saving the world} is just so much "bad writing" because it overlooks the fact that Spike is irredeemably evil seems to me simply bizarre. It's not like Spike as a character exists outside the story, so if this is the story that's being told, Spike must be capable of developing in that fashion.

[shapinglight]

And yet he claims not to be obsessed with Spike...

Heh! They all say that and yet they so clearly are. I'm glad this AAQ person managed that rather good put-down.