No football here!

[elisi]

Today has been too warm. Maybe it's growing up in a cooler climate, but I really can't function well when the temperature gets over 25 degrees. lillianmorgan - want to swap?

Anyway, what with my extreme sleepiness, instead of doing house work I wrote down a couple of thoughts on the subject of Spike's Sire... when AOQ reviewed FFL, one of the most debated topics was the fact that Spike called Angel 'Sire' in 'School Hard', and the writers did a ret-con in making Dru his Sire later. It never bothered me, so I decided to work out why - if you're curious, please have a look, but I'm mostly just posting it here for my own records - I'll probably post it on the newsgroup on Monday. It's very badly written btw, since I'm sure I was asleep while I wrote most of it.


The whole Sire thing...
Basically I’ve been trying to look at the problem from a story POV. What were the writers trying to do and why?

Let’s look at ‘School Hard’ first, and see what Angel says about Spike, keeping in mind that none of them has heard about him before:
~
Giles: Well, he can't be any worse than any other creature you've
faced.
Angel: (suddenly appears) He's worse. (they all look at him) Once he
starts something he doesn't stop until everything in his path is dead.

Giles: Angel, do you know if this Spike fellow goes under any other
name?
They all look where he was, but he has disappeared. The library doors
finish shutting.
~
Well that was spectacularly unhelpful. Angel really does have a thing for cryptic warnings, but this time he outdoes himself. The only useful thing he says is that Spike is very dangerous - and Giles figures that out all by himself later, when he discovers that Spike has killed two Slayers. Which leaves the question: Why does Angel not say any more? He obviously knows who Spike is, but doesn’t explain how - has he met him? Fought against him? What sort of info does he have and why does he not tell them anything they might need?

Later, when they’re being held captive in the school, Giles sends Xander to get Angel. And now we find out why Angel has kept so quiet:
~
Cut outside. The man lies dead on the grass. Xander and Angel see him.
Xander: You know a lot about this Spike guy, so, um... you got a plan?
Angel grabs Xander by the throat.
Xander: Good plan.

Angel: I taught you to always guard your perimeter. Tsk, tsk, tsk. You
should have someone out there.
Spike: I did. I'm surrounded by idiots. What's new with you?

Spike: You think you can fool me?! You were my sire, man! You were
my... Yoda!
Angel: Things change.
Spike: Not us! Not demons! Man, I can't believe this. You Uncle Tom!
~
Angel knows Spike - but not as a foe, oh no. The important words here are ‘Sire’ and ‘Yoda’.

‘Sire’ in this instance has nothing to do with who gave William a neck trauma - sire signifies (close) family. (Remember, I’m trying to see what the writers are telling us!) It means not only do they know each other, they are related. The last close relative of Angel’s that we saw was Darla - and she came pretty close to killing Buffy. We see the same with Spike. Angel’s family is old, dangerous and well trained. They’re not your average stupid fledgling that Buffy comes up against most nights - they’re a serious threat.

‘Yoda’ is to denote the relationship between the two - teacher and pupil. If Spike is dangerous, it’s because Angelus trained him. Angelus was the one who made him someone who ‘doesn't stop until everything in his path is dead’. What Spike was like before he was turned doesn’t matter and is never mentioned - it’s who he became that’s important. Because if the pupil is deadly, then how much worse is the teacher? This of course we find out halfway through the season when we finally meet Angelus...


Now ‘Fool For Love’ is a very different sort of episode. It’s one that fills in Spike’s background, and does so superbly. That the writers decided to make Dru his Sire (instead of Angelus) makes an awful lot of sense, especially since we finally see what sort of man William was. Angelus would never have noticed him, but Dru looked into his mind and saw what was hidden from others. And she made herself a gallant and caring knight, who spendt 120 years at her side, watching over her with affection and tenderness, even as he carved out a name for himself as a vicious fighter.

His relationship with Angelus was obviously a tumultuous one, but it stands to reason that it was Angelus who taught him - Dru is hardly the type to impart lessons. And although he was rebellious, we see that Spike did pay attention to what his (grand)sire was telling him:

Angelus (1880): A real kill. A good kill. It takes pure artistry.
Spike (2000): Death is your art. You make it with your hands, day after day.

That is the importance of the Spike/Angelus relationship - Spike arrives in S2, setting himself up as The Big Bad, but he’s not. He’s only the forerunner for the Real Big Bad - a taster as it were. The teacher/pupil unevenness is already at play. Angel always seems to have the upper hand - especially when it comes to the women in their lives. Both Dru and Buffy in some way lost their hearts to Angel, and Spike doesn’t have a hope of ever getting there as far as we can see. [Trying not to spoile AOQ for future developments, remember]

Which is why what might to some be a ret-con really does not bother me at all. The stories, the relationships, the interactions do not change because of it. In fact, it makes them more. Spike’s affection for Dru suddenly makes more sense - his devotion to her is bordering on the selfless, even though she is insane, difficult and (when we first see her) ill (Angelus would probably have abandoned Darla in similar circumstances). But from the moment Dru snatches ‘Effulgent’ out of thin air, we can see that William is utterly smitten, and it is obvious that he’d dedicate his unlife to the woman who first understood him (as he so eloquently explains in ‘Crush’).

And it is because of things like this that I love the show. :)

Comments

[frenchani.livejournal.com]

I agree with you, Dru definitely makes more sense. William needed "to be seen" by a woman. Once they decided the kind of man William was, Angelus could not be the one who gave him the lethal kiss.

Slashers would probably prefer it that way, because the siring bite is a sexual metaphor but William/Spike's world revolves around women. Dru had to be the Muse whispering the effulgent word to lead him to a new journey.
But of course as soon as William entered the family, Angelus had to become his sire because Angelus was the top dog and Dru was only the princess.

[elisi]

Angelus had to become his sire because Angelus was the top dog and Dru was only the princess.
Now that is beautifully put - I might just steal that! :)

What I cannot understand is people getting so hung up on one word, it makes no sense to me. *shakes head*

[fishsanwitt]

And it's because of wonderful posts like *this* one, that I love you :) ::squishes you::

[elisi]

Really? It's wonderful? *is pleased*

And I saw your post earlier on - I hope you're OK! People are stupid, and I don't think there's a cure for that. *BIG hugs*

[fishsanwitt]

It *is* wonderful. I know you don't always think you're posting rationally - LOL! - but you *are* - I love the way you work things out. It always makes sense to me and I love the optimism you project about the later seasons :)

And thank you for your comment on my post. You're right about stupidity - hee.

[elisi]

Aw, you're making me blush here. *g* It all usually makes sense in my own head, the problem is putting it across in the right way!

*hugs*

[calturner.livejournal.com]

Yet another wonderful post, Elisi! :)

[elisi]

Thank you! :)

[liliaeth]

You are of course totally right, but I do have to disagree with you on one thing. Not just because I'm a slasher, but because to me, it seems that William was exactly the kind of prey that would have attracted Angelus notice. If he'd had the time to see him more than once.

Angelus has a weakness for innocense. The greater the innocence of something, the more urgent he feels the need to corrupt it. Not just to destroy it, but to taint it. To make it dirty, like himself.

He did it to Penn, who most likely was a sweet young puritan who'd barely had a wrong thought in his life. He did it to Dru who was an innocent nun. He did it to Buffy, because the very kindness and innocence in her made him... how to put this. I think that part of him envies the pure and the innocent, and like a child with something beautiful, he wants to destroy it, taint it, make it his, his work of art, with his handprint on it.

William, had Angelus noticed him somewhere other than on the street where they ran into one another, would have grabbed Angelus attention, because of the very same things that pulled in Dru.

He's innocent of the world, living at least partly in a fantasy of beauty and poetry. And Angelus would have loved corrupting just that.

As he probably did do after Dru brought William home. William once turned might have become a killer and evil, but part of him still has that innocent belief in love and forever and Angelus seems all to ready to jump at the chance to destroy that.

[auroramama]

William once turned might have become a killer and evil, but part of him still has that innocent belief in love and forever and Angelus seems all to ready to jump at the chance to destroy that.

Didn't manage it, though, did he? In fact, he failed spectacularly. Dru doesn't abandon Spike, either, though she loves having both her men to herself, and she loves tormenting Spike with jealousy. She doesn't leave him, according to later canon, until she starts seeing another woman in his mind.

[elisi]

it seems that William was exactly the kind of prey that would have attracted Angelus notice. If he'd had the time to see him more than once.
Hmmm, now that *is* a good point. But having mulled it over, I have some sort of answer. If Angelus had indeed sired William (after screwing with his brain first), William would never have become the Spike that we have.

He did it to Penn, who most likely was a sweet young puritan who'd barely had a wrong thought in his life.
Penn isn't insane of course, but *spectaculalrly* unimaginative, which is probably why Angelus let him go.

But yes, you're right - someone sweet and innocent would have been a good prey for Angelus!

[gillo]

Beautiful bit of meta - and spot on. Angel is his Yoda - the guru who taught him to surrender to the Force. In this case the Dark Side, but still. Beside that the actual blood-draining process is far less important. Dru has made herself the companion she wants, Angel has twisted him into the companion he wants too ("That one time"?)

I think Spike loves both Dru and Angel, actually - for both he does his usual trick of trying to transform himself into an extreme version of what he perceives they want him to be - just as he later does for Buffy.

[auroramama]

I think Spike loves both Dru and Angel, actually - for both he does his usual trick of trying to transform himself into an extreme version of what he perceives they want him to be - just as he later does for Buffy.

Mmmm, definitely. That's what he has to give, and he can't resist giving it. Almost like an actor.

[elisi]

I think Spike loves both Dru and Angel, actually
Oh of course! :)

Actually I agree with everything, so I'll just use this icon and be done. ;)

[suspiria-1.livejournal.com]

Is it ok for me not to give a damn how much more evil and badass *cough*overhyped*cough* Angelus is supposed to be than Spike? I still think Spike's way cooler. And a gazillion times hotter.

Just putting my shallow thoughts out there. *g* Sorry. Hope you don't mind.

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

Adore the icon.

[suspiria-1.livejournal.com]

Heh. Thanks.

[elisi]

Hope you don't mind.
Oh not at all! (Esp. since I agree with you). But this was written for the posters that frequent AOQ's reviews, (some of whom are exceptionally closeminded when it comes to Spike, as I'm sure you've noticed!)

[rahirah]

Yeah, what you said. Though actually, the decision to make Dru Spike's sire came even earlier than FFL; there was an article in one of the genre magazines in S2 or 3 in which Dru and Spike were 'interviewed,' and it was made very clear that Dru was Spike's sire. But of course, only a very small number of people saw that article. (I saw a scan of it a couple of years ago, but I can't remember which magazine it was in...)

[elisi]

Oh I heard about that article! It was actually mentioned during the discussions I referred to, but it was swept away by the opposers, because 'Spike said SIRE' and therefore the writers screwed up and it's all a ret-con! I'm sure some of them pouted!

So I, in my humble little way, tried to point out that in 'School Hard' they weren't particularly trying to say who bit him...

Although some of these people, honestly! There are a whole bunch who think that Spike's 'love' was just obsession because he wanted to get in Buffy's pants! Still have to see them explain why he stayed around the whole summer after she died...

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

Wow. That is incredibly interesting. I admit, I've always been one to call retcon on that one, but I had always paid so much attention to the "sire" that I never saw the key word, "Yoda". 'Cause you are right, they had shown time and time again that Angelus was Spike's teacher. That line had just introduced it.

(It's been forever since I've seen 'Destiny' but isn't there a line in that ep about Angelus making the monster? Or did I dream that up? It is highly probable. Heh.)

[elisi]

Thank you. :) I'm all about the meta for some reason - I also wrote this enormous soul essay thingy a week or so ago if you're curious.

And from 'Destiny':

"Drusilla sired me... but you... you made me a monster."

So see, you were absolutely right! :)

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

Very good short analysis. Not badly written at all, I think.

"Basically I’ve been trying to look at the problem from a story POV. What were the writers trying to do and why?"

Something I wish others would do more often. The story is more interesting than the themes, I think. Or at least, the themes are nothing but dry bones which could be read in a dictionary instead of capturing mind and heart in the story.

I think too that sometimes Buffy is overanalyzed - it's a TV show, often written at the last moment, admittedly by very talented people, but I don't think they were trying to fit in the entire works of Freud, Hegel, and Marx, or their contemporary equivalent. Much of the depth comes from the philosphies of the writers themselves, rather than being conscious insertions from more famous thinkers. Which is just fine.

Nicely done.

[elisi]

The story is more interesting than the themes, I think.
Funnily enough, I wrote this for people who barely acknowledge that there *are* themes. They look at the show in very simplistic terms. (Some of them, mind you, not all.)

Anyway, thank you - I guess the problem is that Buffy lends itself so well to analysis, so people use it to prove anything and everything. Which is fun, but really - why not just enjoy the pretty people? *g*

[bookishwench.livejournal.com]

You handle the "But Who Really Sired Spike" conundrum that's been floating around for ages quite well, and I like your reasoning here, that Angelus was the one in charge but he never would have noticed William enough to turn him; only Dru would have done that. Is there any chance I could snag this essay for Charm School" (http://www.herringjousting.com/cs/html)'s writing section? I don't believe we have anything that deals with the Dru v. Angelus sire issue yet.

[elisi]

I like your reasoning here, that Angelus was the one in charge but he never would have noticed William enough to turn him
Oh thank you! :) It was actually written in response to *huge* debates over 'the ret-con', and I was trying to point out that it didn't make any difference.

Is there any chance I could snag this essay for Charm School"'s writing section?
I'd be honoured!