I am SO addicted!

[elisi]

This is one of the most fascinating posts of all time. Or rather the discussion it sparked. I absolutely don't have time to read it, and yet I keep coming back to it.

peasant_'s basic question is this:

Something I have never understood about old-school redemptionistas is why so many of you wanted the redemption to be without a soul. Why was that important to you?

ETA: Uploaded this icon by awmp, because I realised that not having a 'Spike getting souled' icon was a big oversight. Especially since that *particular* moment was what made me obsess. Because OMG Spike got his soul back! WOW! What happens now?

I still get blown away by that. He got his soul back - he was the vampire who dared to dream and made his dream come true. And damn but it takes my breath away every single time I think about it!

OK, I'll go now...

Comments

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

You're right; very interesting! I don't actually have anything to add that others haven't already said, but interesting to read. thanks for the rec; something to think about while i drink my coffee...

[elisi]

My pleasure. I think the most intersting thing is that 'the redemptionistas' seem to think that the soul is a cop-out. Whereas those of us who like the soul only see it as a step on the way. I *have* to stop now!

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

Heh! I'm been having that same argument since "grave"!

[elisi]

Ah 'Grave'! The last moments of that episode were what turned me obsessive! Spike - with a soul! Damn! (I need an icon of that actually...)

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

It' s a fabulous and most insightful discussion , I agree. i'm following it since the beginning on Tuesday and it's a treat.

It's wonderful to be able to still have such thoughts on a subject related to a series that ended three years ago!

[elisi]

A fabulous treat indeed! Especially since all parties are curteous and polite. :)

[shapinglight]

;Snap: with the icons.

[elisi]

Hee! I love doing that. :)

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

And then there are those of us who love souled Spike, but think a soulless redemption storyline would have been really cool, too.

I think there's three of us... ;-)

[elisi]

but think a soulless redemption storyline would have been really cool, too.
You do not want to know how fast I inhaled kallysten's 'Sire & Child' saga... (it being the first example to pop into my head!)

I don't know how they could have done it though - but that is the topic for another post when I'm not being trampled by a baby!

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

I don't know how they could have done it though

Well, rahirah's saga (A Raising In the Sun, Necessary Evils, Parliament of Monsters) is just the first soulless redemption story that comes to mind that makes me believe it's possible. It's all about the writing. :-)

[elisi]

Yes I really must get round to reading all of her stories - so far I've only read 'A Raising In The Sun' (which I loved) and the rest has been on my 'must read' list for... uh, years! And yes, Barb could make me believe just about anything I think. :)

Still - I like my Spike to be a Big Damn Hero! ;)

[frenchani.livejournal.com]

Yes the soul was important.

Just adding my two cents here.

He didn't change because of the soul, it's because he has changed that he got his soul back. Once he made the choice to fight for it, the soul was his again.

It isn't a curse, it isn't a reward, it isn't the beginning of his journey nor is it the end of it...winning back his soul was simply the metaphorical result of the changes that occured in him. The choices he made in the two previous seasons ensouled him little by little, until he made that last wish in "Grave". The soul didn't redeem him, didn't make him redeemable even, it proved he was redeemable.

[elisi]

I like how your mind works. :)

It isn't a curse, it isn't a reward, it isn't the beginning of his journey nor is it the end of it...
Exactly.

The soul didn't redeem him, didn't make him redeemable even, it proved he was redeemable.
I love how you put that!

Also by the end of S6 he had come as far as he could without it - it was the next step on his journey. I can't see how they could have done anything else with him.

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

This is only slightly related to this discussion but I thought you might find this interesting.

[elisi]

Thank you. :)

[skylee.livejournal.com]

I'm bookmarking to read later. But personally, since I only really got obsessed with the show much later (Beneath You), like you, the soul WAS part of the reason for my obsession (He got his soul back) so I never really thought about soulless redemption and why it was so hotly debated in fandom.

[elisi]

I remember being very surprised at the intensity of feeling on the whole subject - it never occurred to me that the show could have gone another route!

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

thanks for the link. that will account for a lot of time wasted - I just started, but it is always fun, the soul in Jossverse.

I realised that I don't get the crucial part of the argument - the redemption.

What is it, redemption? I know the translation, but I just hardly can get it - in regards with Jossverse characters. I never got that Spike's journey was about redemption - it was about growing up and becoming a better person, his own person. and the soul - the changes that the soul brought in him were crucial for his growing up

[elisi]

I realised that I don't get the crucial part of the argument - the redemption.
You know, the more I think about it, the less I understand it. I think the term 'redemptionista' is very misleading, because as far as I can tell they're not actually interested in redeeming Spike, just in exploring what it might be like having someone continually struggle against their nature. Or something. (Read rahirah's comment.)

And I agree with you completely! Whereas those who prefer Spike soulles seem to think that the soul is just a cop-out fix-all cure. Which quite frankly baffles me.

Anyway, I'm quietly mulling over a post about why I like what they did with Spike. :)