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More thoughts! My head is going to explode soon...

This re-watch is going much too fast! Why can't I just switch off my brain...

Watched ‘Halloween’ yesterday, and there is *no* part of that episode that I don’t adore! *happy sigh*

One thing I’ve noticed and forgotten to mention, is that we sort of see the Cordy/Devon relationship in the background of these last few eps, although she will chase pretty much anything - college boy, Jonathan, Xander (there’s a lot of X/C action in these epsiodes also), Angel...

And it’s interesting that it's Angel who ends up having coffee with Cordelia instead of Buffy at the start of 'Halloween'. I really love that scene, because it shows that Cordy makes Angel laugh, which is in such contrast to the intensity of the B/A scenes.

Which nicely leads me on to the fact that I also listened to the commentary for ‘Repitle Boy’ and David Greenwalt talks about how when they were discussing starting ‘Angel’ he said that they had to have Cordelia on the show - Angel was so broody that her big bright smiles would be very much needed.

And this ties in with something I’ve continually forgotten to mention: Cordelia being Buffy’s ‘shadow’. And it’s interesting that when Buffy’s a bitch (in WSWB f.ex) Cordy gets more caring...

Anyway, David also mentioned that they had this wonderful bit of the script that they were unable to film due to time running out... And I found it - it would have been *awesome* to see!

CORDELIA (cont’d) (to Tom): You’re going to jail for about fifteen thousand years. Oh god, it’s over…it’s really…

That’s when Machida, re-joined, suddenly pops up again.

Angel takes a threatening step forward next to Buffy and growls.

Machida towers over Tom:

MACHIDA: For a hundred years I have given your forebearers wealth and power. And this is how you repay me. From this day forth you are alone in the world.

Machida slides back down. Cordelia is afraid to breathe. With good reason. Machida pops back up, grabs Tom.

MACHIDA (cont’d): Lil’ somethin’ for the road.

Machida disappears into the pit with Tom. We hear Tom’s screams, a quick couple of chomps and then silence.

Hehehehehehe!

Now David said something re. Willow that really made me think. It’s when Buffy lies to Giles about going to the party: Willow is utterly shocked, because it’s not in the order of things to lie...

"Willow likes order. She depends on it!"

Now that says *so much*! Because Willow will use magic to ‘bring order back’ time and time again - to ‘fix things’.

Now I also thought about Willow and relationships, and having just read a review of ‘Wild at Heart’ something occurred to me... everyone adores Oz, but he is still very flawed. When he leaves (to ‘sort out’ his wolfishness), Willow says:
”Don’t I get a say in this?”
And she doesn’t... I don’t think they’ve had a single argument (really) up to that point, and rather than discuss it, Oz *leaves*. I think this influences her greatly when it comes to Tara. As far as I recall they have *one* argument before Tara gets brainsucked, so when they argue again, Willow goes with what she has learnt and what her impulses tell her: Create order and make the argument go away, or she will be left alone!

And that is all for now...

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And it’s interesting that it's Angel who ends up having coffee with Cordelia instead of Buffy at the start of 'Halloween'. I really love that scene, because it shows that Cordy makes Angel laugh, which is in such contrast to the intensity of the B/A scenes. Nods. That was always IMO the best part of AtS as well, Cordy's ability to call him "dumbass" and things like that. She may have loved him but she wasn't all starry eyed about it. She saw his good points but she also remembered his bad points as well.

I think humour is one of the most important things in a relationship (as well as seeing clearly who each other is). Here's Cordy's line from that scene (that makes Angel laugh):
So I told Devon, 'You call that leather interior? My Barbie Dream Car had nicer seats!'
Buffy and Angel always seem to be so *serious*!

A good argument could also be made that Willow's need for order is why she ran around saying Gay Now like she had flipped a switch. Being bisexual didn't fit as neatly into a cubbyhole for her as being gay or straight.

We definitely know that she's attracted to men from observing her in the past. If she was only interested in women and was with a guy because she was in denial or because she thought she was supposed to be with a guy then why would she have to resort to magic to not cheat on Oz with Xander?

Exactly !

And this is why Ethan being the Chaos worshipper he is, must have been bisexual.

that Willow's need for order is why she ran around saying Gay Now
That's an excellent point! Like when using her coloured markers... you can only use *one* colour for highlighting.

Oh I love "Halloween" too! Good point about Cordelia/Angel. The interaction between Willow and Giles is revealing too.

And there's my Ethan! Yes Willow liked order...she liked computers, she liked labels (Gay Now), she liked using colours on her notes etc...And you're right magick was a way to fix things, to bring order back.

A Willow vs. Ethan scene would have been interesting !

There is Cordy's line (about Willow): "Who died and made her the boss?" which encapsulates so much. Willow likes creating order, so when chaos ensues she tries to fix it!

And Ethan is *so* much fun! *happy sigh*

A later seasons Willow & Ethan would have been even better! She could have flicked her wrist and made him dance the polka! *g*

Mmmm...I'd like to test that theory!

;- )

PS: Giles would have never let Willow hurt his Ethan! :- P

Hee! To your PS. :) And the Giles/Ethan scene is incredibly yummy.

"Hello...Ripper..." *dies*

Oh yes Robin did that very well..."What? No hug?"

And later when he tells Giles "Say 'pretty please'"

*purrs*

One thing struck me - whenever Giles trains with Buffy, he is shown as being very much out of his depth. Her innate talents are far beyond his learning. But give him an opponent that isn't a 16-year-old Slayer... and my how things change!

*purrs too*

I don't adore Oz, if that helps. He's okay but not that interesting.

I love that Cordy/Angel scene too. It says to me quite forcefully that she's what Angel needs.

I don't adore Oz, if that helps.
Heh. Sorta I guess... but there doesn't seem to be Oz-haters the same way you have say Spike-haters. Even though he cheats on Willow...

It says to me quite forcefully that she's what Angel needs.
Me too - and not because she's made a great effort to look good (which is what Buffy comments on) but because she makes Angel relax.

but there doesn't seem to be Oz-haters the same way you have say Spike-haters. Even though he cheats on Willow...

Ah, well, that's because Oz didn't take over the show and ruin everything so that BtVS is no good after season 3 (Spike-hater non-logic).

Ah well, we won! *g*

Hee! exactly. That's why they're still so sore.

This post totally made me get out my old dvds because I couldn't remember that Angel and Cordy scene for the life of me. It's been forever since I've seen the ep. And yea, I got the disc out for that scene and ended up watching most of the episode. The "honey, I'm home" part is still my favorite part. Hehe.

But I've never actually gotten to go through all the commentaries so that Greenwalt comment is neat to hear about. Those two and their balancing act really made Angel for me, and I'm still sad that Cordy ending up getting handled so poorly in the end. As much as I love S5, it's just not the same without her there...

But the Willow stuff. That is VERY interesting. I never really thought Willow was drawn well enough to sum up so simply but it really does explain alot about her character! Very interesting indeed...

Yay! I made you watch it! *g*

The "honey, I'm home" part is still my favorite part. Hehe.
A gem amongst gems... there is also the bit where Willow startles Giles... and when Giles beats up Ethan... and... (must stop!)

I've never actually gotten to go through all the commentaries
Neither have I... I've listened to the one for 'Selfless' and that was very good, but other than that I've just never got round to it.

I never really thought Willow was drawn well enough to sum up so simply but it really does explain alot about her character!
Well she's a main character, and I always felt that she was consistently drawn, but I could never put my finger on what it was - because it's not power that she wants (when using magic later), like some people seem to think. Or at least she only sees it as a means to an end.

Too many thoughts - must step away from computer!

Funny how Buffy makes Angel turn evil and Cordelia makes him turn good. Maybe it's just the self-asstertive Cordelia personality that Liam needs.

It's not made explicit until the first few episodes of Angel, where the Cordy good, Buffy evil anvil is dropped on our heads until we're bruised and broken. But it's all in the text no later than Hallowe'en.

Doyle: And our vampire falls madly in love with her. Eventually the two of them, well, they get fleshy with one another. And the moment he -- Well, I guess the technical term is 'perfect happiness'. But when our boy gets there, he goes bad again. He kills again. It's ugly.
...
Doyle: It's not all about fighting and gadgets and such. It's about reaching out to people, showing them that there's love and hope still left in this world....You know, it's about letting 'em into your heart.
...
Doyle: (On Cordelia) You made a good choice. She'll provide a connection to the world.

(Thx 2 BVDDB.)

Aly Hannigan, who is not at all shy about skin according to the photos in the lad rags, sure does a good job playing shy, nervy, private willow here.

Too skinny though. But that was what the network wanted.

It's also interesting, considering how confident she'll be later!

And yes, very skinny. (As am I, although I've never been on a diet in my life!)

Maybe it's just the self-assertive Cordelia personality that Liam needs.
Well Buffy is pretty assertive too, which is what I think he's originally attracted too, but then of course it goes all gooey! *g*

And thanks for the quotes, that really sums it up (as does the *hilarious* show Wesley and Cordelia put on for Fred's sake when Buffy's been resurrected!

But, one thing that stuck me in the B/A conversation at the end of 'Halloween' (and that I mentioned at some point in the past which was why I didn't bring it up in this post):

Angel: I hated the girls back then. Especially the noble women.
Buffy: (nods) You did.
Angel: They were just incredibly dull. Simpering morons, the lot of them. I always wished I could meet someone... exciting. (looks her in the eyes) Interesting.

He makes it sound like it's all about her, but we now know that it was Darla he met... Darla who was exciting and interesting! And she was also someone very assertive who made him laugh and enjoy himself!

Buffy is pretty assertive too

Buffy is assertive, but not self assertive. She'll command people for the sake of the mission, but she almost never stands up for her own interests, defering to her calling, her watcher, her family, and her friends again and again over what she wants for herself.

Liam will exploit his friends, his allies, and Buffy for his vision, his family, and personal gain time and again. Buffy isn't built to stand up to that every day; she needs allies who support her vision and her leadership. Cordelia is perfectly able to call Angel on his overreaching whenever he does it.

Darla was, too. Angel really needed one of those two more than he ever needed Whistler or Doyle.

And YES to the Wes and Cordy show!

Angel really needed one of those two more than he ever needed Whistler or Doyle.
True - but then he would still be in the gutter if it hadn't been for Whistler. Darn boy is just a bit on the dramatic side...

Anyway, now he's got Spike to keep him in line! *g*

Love that insight about Willow. I'd never put that together before re: between Oz and Tara. I'd definitely gotten her order thing before but hadn't noticed how she might apply it there. Neat!

I'd never put that together before re: between Oz and Tara.
Neither had I - but it struck me that Tara trying to explain how relationships work, is very important, because Willow has never had that - she doesn't know how to deal with conflict. Hey - Kennedy might be good for her! :)

I think this influences her greatly when it comes to Tara. As far as I recall they have *one* argument before Tara gets brainsucked, so when they argue again, Willow goes with what she has learnt and what her impulses tell her: Create order and make the argument go away, or she will be left alone!

I don't know if I agree with that. It really only works if order=whatever Willow wants. In that sense, it *is* power she's after. To me, she's always been about instant gratification. Instead of listening to Tara and restraining her magic, she steals her thoughts. Instead of helping Buffy deal and accept her responsibility in her misery, she does it again. I don't think it ever occurred to her that Tara would actually leave, even after TR. To me, it just seemed like she wanted her off her back about the magic in AtW.

Of course, I gots the Willow issues. :-P

It really only works if order=whatever Willow wants.
In the later seasons, yes that is what it becomes, but to begin with (as in 'Reptile Boy' where the comment was from) it is her way of dealing with the world (oh - a bit like Bree on 'Desperate Housewives' I guess!).

Then, when she actually gets the power to change things, 'order' becomes about control.

I think Willow is a wonderfully interesting character, if deeply flawed.

Some lovely thoughts here. Particularly like the comparisons between Willow and her relationships (wonder how we can work Xander or Kennedy or Buffy or Anya or Spike into this...) and how she tries to control the world around her.
Awwww, that's a sweet thing to notice about Cordy and Angel.

Ooooh Giles doesn't conform to Willow's attempts to control him, does she? Hmmmm...

Or rather, he doesn't fall into the pattern he should - praising her like she was obviously expecting!

OMG cutest icon eva! *swoons*

But... re. relationships, then I think Kennedy will be good for Willow, actually. She's incrdibly strong headed (*cough*annoying*cough*) and we constantly see Willow having to talk with her and reason with her. Good lessons for Willow! *nods*

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More thoughts! My head is going to explode soon...

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