So, anyone feel like baiting some dinosaurs?

[elisi]

Not sure I phrased that right, but having followed links from iceprincess_x and mbangel10 I am now sort of caught up in one of the most incredibly stupid threads *ever*! Of course I knew that there were people like that out there, but honestly? Seeing them 'in the flesh' so to speak is very odd. Here are a couple of quotes:

Because I don't buy Spike's ensouled "love" after the minute or two of ensoulment, does not impact my view of Angel who spent about what almost 100 years or so mulling it all over.
(That one is all new to me. Angel loved Buffy better because he brooded for a century???)

Spike saw one moment of vulnerability and was over her like a rash and never let go, pretty well constantly taunting her and playing on that vulnerability from then on, knowing damned well that she was too emotionally shattered to resist for any length of time.

Pretty much like any other low-life abuser. "But honey, I love you *BASH*. No really, it's for your own good *BASH*."
(::blinks:: What is this guy on? I should probably clarify that I also dislike the viewpoint that Spike was Buffy's innocent victim, but there is no doubt that she was the instigator.)

Damn but I *so* don't have time for this. If any of you feel like a little verbal sparring, please have fun! The start of the thread is here, btw.

(Oh and Angel never ever killed (to feed) when he had his soul (just killing them and *not* feeding is somehow more noble), and locking the lawyers in the basement with Dru and Darla doesn't count because he didn't actually kill them himself... Also Spike was conned into his soul and everyone is just lying about it. Hey - do you think maybe these guys are W&H lawyers?

Comments

[shapinglight]

:Sigh:

You've been lucky if you've never come across this bunch in the flesh before. There's no point trying to argue with them. They made up their minds years ago. They believe that Angelus was just a big cuddly bunny and Spike was evil even when he was human. Why else would he call Jack the Ripper to come and look at his sick mother in LMPTM?

All you can do is roll your eyes and let them get on with it. They're just sore they lost in my opinion.

And they say Spike fans are crazy.

[elisi]

You've been lucky if you've never come across this bunch in the flesh before.
I came to fandom late and found a very nice corner - and I don't stray far from my flist.

They believe that Angelus was just a big cuddly bunny and Spike was evil even when he was human.
Someone pointed out that surely it was also icky that Buffy got back together with Angel in S3 after he had killed Jenny. Reply: 'Angelus killed Jenny.' *headdesk*

They're just sore they lost in my opinion.
Heh. You might just be right! (And it's such a shame icons can't be used over there. I'd totally be using this one all the time!)

[sylva-rerum.livejournal.com]

I can't believe that people are still arguing about whether Spike meant to get his soul back or not. Yes, ME did play the ambuguity card way too much in "Grave", but considering that every single frigging piece of evidence we've had since then all points to him getting the soul voluntarily, you would think that some people might catch a clue sooner or later. Apparently not, though.

I swear, nothing has changed at all since I stopped lurking on the newsgroup years ago. ::bangs head against desk until she loses consciousness::

[elisi]

I remember the argument you got involved in a few months back! Darn people are thick! It is so *obvious* that everyone lied - the characters, the actors, the writers, canon itself not to mention Joss...

::pets your poor head and gives you nice cup of tea::

Are you OK btw? I saw your last post and meant to send you an e-mail, but never got that far because I am useless and pathetic.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_jems_/]

People with insane troll logic just shouldn't be allowed to clog up the internets. Not even being able to afford both souled vampires the same considerations, that they're two different entities before the soul, just reeks of favoratism. Not worth the bother, in my opinion.

And, also, I'm more of the opinion that both vampires are the same entities with and without the soul (and, to some extent, as their human selves), but of course if you see Angel as an actual angel that would never fly.

And now you're really making me want to go back and trace the canon on this, because if my memory serves, not even Angel himself considers he and Angelus to be different entities, it's more that he goes along with it when the others are saying it, probably because he's embarrassed and doesn't want them to turn their backs on him.

[elisi]

People with insane troll logic just shouldn't be allowed to clog up the internets.
Amen. But it's just so fascinating to poke them. Like a rare animal in the zoo...

just reeks of favoratism.
Oooh, yes. How they managed to get their views so skewered is beyond me.

if you see Angel as an actual angel that would never fly.
Bwahahah!

you're really making me want to go back and trace the canon on this
The most obvious example is probably the Angel & Spike scene at the end of 'Damage'.

it's more that he goes along with it when the others are saying it, probably because he's embarrassed and doesn't want them to turn their backs on him.
What a wonderful way to put it! The thing that I'm reminded of is Angelus baiting Gunn trying to find out if it was him or Fred who killed her professor. Showing very clearly that Angel had worked out what had happened, just never mentioned it.

[frenchani.livejournal.com]

Oh I've sparred enough on the C&S over the past 4 years ! If you are curious, just have a look on the thread that followed my post on season 6 last week (and it was nothing compared to some wars we had when the show was still running):

HERE

Some fans are hopeless and some fans are simply scary and creepy...especially when obsessed with hating Spike!

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Buffy's choices in sexual partners speak to the kind of person she became

Eww, what a creepy little man

[elisi]

You weren't kidding! There's hardly any difference between Caleb and Spike??? ::mind boggles::

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

Angel loved Buffy better because he brooded for a century???

::snort:: Dude, Angel 'loved' Buffy because she looked like Darla. Also, nubile 16 year old + no sex for several centuries = "I'll be true...enough."

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

(Note: I'm just pokin'. ;) Though I do think Angel fell for Buffy because she looked like Darla, cause Angel clearly has a type. Exhibit A: Werewolf girl.)

[elisi]

Your icon is wonderfully appropriate! :)

I think Angel *did* love Buffy, but there is this very interesting little bit from 'Becoming I':

Whistler: She's gonna have it tough, that Slayer. She's just a kid. The
world's full of big, bad things.

Angel: I wanna help her. (Whistler looks at him) I want... I wanna
become someone.

Whistler: God, jeez, look at you. She must be prettier than the last
Slayer. (Angel looks away) This isn't gonna be easy. The more you live
in this world, the more you see how apart from it you really are.
(sternly) And this is dangerous work. Right now, you couldn't go three
rounds with a fruit fly!

Prettier than the last one? Hmmm, had The Powers tried to get him off him backside before?

Thing is, I love Angel - but OMG he is *so* the flawed hero!

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I'm getting into it on the Spike thread on TWoP. Someone just decided Spike chooses to became a vampire because he saw the fangs, and it's not comparitable with Liam at all, because Liam didn't know Darla was a vampire. William should have because of local murders apparently


Pfft. And Angel actually lied to Buffy in season 1, as he has killed with a soul. He killed with Darla and the fanged four afterwards. Just with people who he decided deserved it. Murders and rapists are more dubious, but the word thieves was also used. Those were the people he was having for lunch. In the 70's (?) he drinks from the store clerk, after waiting a little too long to help. In the 50's he tells the demon to keep on feeding, and leaves all the people in the hotel in misery. Etc etc etc

[elisi]

Someone just decided Spike chooses to became a vampire because he saw the fangs, and it's not comparitable with Liam at all, because Liam didn't know Darla was a vampire. William should have because of local murders apparently
These people are obviously *delusional*! And I suppose that Liam was just a sweet innocent little boy who always went to church and said his prayers...

And a big nod to all your examples! As Buffy put it: "Because muggers deserve to be eaten."

[pfeifferpack.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah...I used to "fight it out" on other boardsover idiocy like this! One even claimed that Buffy's smile at the end of Chosen was because she was finally "rid of Spike for good, finally free". Personally anyone that evil minded would not be a heroine IMHO...the guy just dusted for the love of her!

It does no good to point out ANY flaw in Angel (or even Angelus for that matter) and any good in Spike. All Spike's motives were evil based to destroy Buffy or to gain something from her and all Angel's motives were flawless and pure (whereas Angelus was a totally seperate entity that poor Angel was saddled with).

It does no good to point out the killing and eating for 20 years after the soul, even if Angel selected bad people as his targets, he was still trying to fit in with Darla. It does no good to mention that for a century the best you could say of Angel was that he stopped killing humans and avoided humanity as much as possible. The "good deeds" he did until Buffy were by coersion (the woman at the hotel and the US government in WWII) unless you count his rescue of the ladies dog in the 1930's. He brooded as the curse dictated him to do. Angel only chose to go proactive for the side of good when he was shown Buffy in her little girl look sucking on a lollipop! Season 1 had him show up with dire warnings and little else....he stalked Buffy just as Spike is accused of doing. Angel didn't fight at her side very often, he usually was a no show for the actual fights or just watched. Even at the end as he watched her fight Caleb he remarked how he missed watching Buffy fight!

Okay, gonna stop now....preaching to the choir! BTW I agree that Spike was not a victim...he knew what Buffy was doing and WHY and was agreeable with it for his own reasons.

I won't follow the thread cause I'll lose my mind again and I already tried logic and facts. When you point out that Joss and Co. ALL say the getting of a soul by Spike was the absolute intent of the character...not only in interviews but in on the DVD's of S6...they say that it is "what's on screen" that is canon and it was on screen that Spike was surprised. He REALLY went to get the chip out to kill Buffy and her friends and that is why he kept calling her a bitch in the cave with the demon. It matters not to mention the chip didn't work on Buffy and he didn't need it out to wreck havok. Point is, you can never ever change their minds. Gaaaahhhhh

Kathleen
gonna bow out now before I go as batty as Dru....see why I won't go check it out? I just can't stop myself *G*

[elisi]

One even claimed that Buffy's smile at the end of Chosen was because she was finally "rid of Spike for good, finally free".
I think I broke my brain!

And I never realised that Spike haters were also very often Angel worshippers. Hmmm.

Don't have much to add, except I *love* my flist! ::smooches::

[rahirah]

Trust me, it's not worth the energy. Them folks ain't right.

[elisi]

Oh I know. But I was such a latecomer to fandom (post-S7), that this is all quite new to me. I feel like Steve Irwin trying to interact with crocodiles! ;)

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

that's just... well, words fail me. No, no I've got one! Surreal!

The sad part is that I found myself reading page after page. That one guy who insists that the last two season didn't happen, that they were fanfiction because he didn't like the direction ME took is a serious head trip.

I notice no one responded to the very valid point that one someone made about Angel/ Angelus vs Spike-- if Angel isn't responsible for the things Angelus did, why isn't Spike atomatically absolved of his sins when he gets his soul back?

Or maybe they did-- I didn't dig through all 200+ posts!

[elisi]

That one guy who insists that the last two season didn't happen, that they were fanfiction because he didn't like the direction ME took is a serious head trip.
Hee! I saw that comment too! Just bizarre.

if Angel isn't responsible for the things Angelus did, why isn't Spike atomatically absolved of his sins when he gets his soul back?
Mabe he needs to brood for 100 years first? (No I didn't read it all either.)

[femmenerd.livejournal.com]

*feels eyes glaze over red*

Eek, I'm so glad that my fandom life is generally completely sheltered from these fools. Don't they know that these arguments are not only stupid also like, so 2002. Heh.

[elisi]

I'm so glad that my fandom life is generally completely sheltered from these fools.
Me too! My flist is full of intelligent, sensible people, who though this sort of thing was ridiculous even in 2002! ::smooches::

[danceswithwords.livejournal.com]

People are still arguing about this? Seriously?

[elisi]

Apparently so. My mind has boggled until it can boggle no more.

Their logic does not resemble our earth logic.

[withafireinside.livejournal.com]

The whole thing really is silly, and it wouldn't bother me so much except for the thread of puritannical misogyny that seems to run through all of their arguments.

I usually avoid the more crazy-making elements of fandom, but sometimes I get bored and can't help myself. :) But yeah, this kinda thing has been going on since I first got into this fandom (almost 5 years ago! Yikes!) and it still pisses me off. I had to vent the other morning. :)

Re: Their logic does not resemble our earth logic.

[elisi]

Heee! Your subject line cracked me up! :D

We all need to vent sometimes. And there are jerks everywhere, sadly.

[hobbituk.livejournal.com]

I daren't go there. I dislike the Angel character enough as it is. I come over all rabid spuffy when I get into contact with the Bangel "buffy's twu wuv" types. He was a pervy 200+ year old vampire ogling a 15 year old sucking a lollipop, for goodness sake! At least when she got together with Spike she was an adult, making adult choices. Not a kid with fluffy dreams of her first real boyfriend.

See? I get all grrrh and unreasonable. *goes off to find some fluff to read*

[elisi]

The thing is that I *adore* Angel in all his mopey, disgruntled glory! He is so wonderfully flawed, that I just want to hit him over the head and then give him a hug. The problem is that these people are obviously stuck somewhere in the happy la-la land of S2/3 with Angel as the big broody hero who can do no wrong. And lets face it, he was mostly just boring then.

[earth-vexer.livejournal.com]

::headdesk::
People are still arguing about this? Don't they know that the Spike fans won this argument years ago? ;)

Backing away slowly before I click on the link and cause my brain to explode....

[elisi]

But don't you know that Spike is evil? And that we're all deluded and stuff...

And funnily enough they never answered half my questions...

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

I had a look there - because I don't mind reading crazy arguments - but those are simultaneously too insane anad boring to waste time on them. I did see such arguments in LJ from time to time (I don't get out much - to boards and groups), and no - no chance in hell to get in some sense there. Wah.

[elisi]

I hardly ever stray far from my flist, so just for once I thought I'd go poke the funny creatures in the zoo... ::shakes head sadly::

[st_salieri.livejournal.com]

Hee hee. I don't think I dare look over there, but...yes. Dinosaurs indeed.

::cuddles flist::

[elisi]

I love my flist thiiiiiiiiis much! You're all so sane!

[calturner.livejournal.com]

I'm not even going to look. I think my brain might explode! *g*

Love your LJ header. :)

[elisi]

Oh dear, we don't want exploding brains. Focussing on the header is much better! (I might have spent far too long staring at it myself...)