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A few stray thoughts...

Watching VM last night ('Hot Dog'? The one with dogs anyway) I was reminded of one of the most fundamental laws of TV-shows: Anything bad you ever did (or secret you kept, lie you told, etc) will come back and bite you on the @$$ sooner or later, usually at the worst time possible!

And I've been idly wondering - do the names on VM have any significance? Logan = Logan's Run?, Kane = Citizen Kane? Planets: Mars, Netune. Anything? Or is my brain just overthinking again?

For the Buffy fans:
So, why doesn't anyone go 'Oooh' and 'Aaaah' over Spike's soul in S7? Why doesn't Giles sit him down for long indepth interviews before starting to write a thesis? Why do the Scoobies not fall over themselves to be Spike's new BFF? Pardon the sarcasm, but having given it some thought...

1. I'm not sure how much they knew. Until 'Never Leave Me' not even Buffy knew anything except "I got back my soul for you". And it's not clear that she told the Scoobies even that much. In 'Him' she says: 'He has a soul now!' - and since we didn't see the scene when she told them in the first place, they were quite likely in the dark as to how he came by the soul.

2. They never really liked Angel much. In 'What's My Line' Xander says Angel is his friend, only he doesn't like him. Later, when Buffy wants to try the soul curse, Xander points out that she just want to forget about Miss Calender's murder and get her boyfriend back. They don't warm to Angel in S3, either. So enter Souled!Spike in S7, they say 'OK so he's a good guy, we'll be nice to him." But underneath it all I think they're all wondering what'll happen - Buffy already slept with him *without* a soul, so it's very likely that Buffy might gravitate towards him again. ("Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike?", "Buffy - I want more for you...")

3. As for Giles, he mostly sees Spike as a threat. Because of the trigger, because of Spike's attatchment to Buffy, because of Buffy's feelings 'clouding her judgment'. The world nearly ended because of Angelus and Jenny was murdered because Buffy couldn't kill him. I think that any admiration Giles might have had for Spike's feat (presuming he knew about it) would be completely overshadowed by all the potential disasters he could envisage!

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1. I think they knew by Him. It didn't seem to come as a shock. But I have no answer for their lack of reaction.

2. Spike hasn't exactly extended the olive branch himself, and he does have a lot to answer for. He's very lucky he wasn't staked for a lot of things.

3. I think Giles has more important things on his mind than study.

1. I've rephrased #1 - I meant that she'd obviously told them about the soul, but nothing else.

2. Exactly!

3. Same again. Some people just seem very hurt that no one credited poor ickle Spikey for what he did. (Sorry, in a bit of a grumpy mood this morning...)

I think a lot of people see Spike way too positively and ignore his numerable faults.

It's sad, because I think his faults add to who he is.

The 'My Spike' (or 'My Buffy' etc) meme that's going around is very interesting and often casts a good light on how people see the character.

I think that Spike not violated any kind of trust that Buffy had for him with the AR, but also everything he ever built up with the Scoobies.

I recently rewatches S5 and was amazed at the way the relationship of Xander and Spike was portraied in the last few epsiodes. Xander clearly states that he misses another male (non-Giles) in the group and presto, a few episodes later he grudgingly lights a cigarette for Spike. But nothing more. This was just the beginning of a friendship, a beginning that probably suffered from Buffy's death.

By hurting Buffy, Spike destroyed this bond, not only with Xander, but also with the rest of them. (Did Giles ever know about the AR? I can't recall).

So Spike, getting his soul? Not enough. It might have been enough for Buffy, who at least had some kind of insight into his heart during S6, but not for the Scoobies, who are absolutely under no obligation to like him, let alone to forgive him. Also, he kind of was killing people with the soul, so, not so much with the Angel-like goodness.

Giles was fascinated, but occupied with being a Watcher for a bunch of teenaged girls, I guess.

They never really liked Angel much.

No, this seems to be easily forgotten, but rewatching early episodes does show that Angel was never really accepted by the Scoobies either. He helped them (when he wasn't Angelus), but he was never really part of them. I suspect you could argue (in a totally non-Spander way of course *g*) that Xander and Spike had more interaction that could actually be described as civil, than Xander did with Angel.

I love Spike so much, but I agree with this.

1. Oh, I think they knew. I just don't think they cared. Xander never liked him and Spike never liked Xander. Sure, they tolerated each other when the time called for it, but that was always just because there was a common objective. And Dawn, well, he attacked her sister. And on top of that, she's not all that sure what a soul means (see Him), so warming up to him isn't likely.

2. Agreed.

3. Again, why do fans think he'd care? I mean, Angel came back from Hell and he didn't care until Buffy asked, so why would he give a damn if Spike got a soul, whatever the means? Also, he never liked him, either. I don't think it's a stretch to say he hated as much as Xander. I don't know, I think there's alot of fanon projection onto Giles character since he's kind of loosely drawn in canon.

That's it - I *adore* Spike and I don't like it when he's woobie-fied. (Or whatever the term is.)

(And your icon is... wow!)

also everything he ever built up with the Scoobies.
Who probably weren't too keen on him anyway after the whole 'sleeping with Anya' deal.

I can't remember about Giles either, but as for the Scoobies, then I think late S5 and the summer after were probably the time Spike was closest to them. And *he* felt betrayed when they raised Buffy without telling him... not much love lost in any case.

Re. Angel, then he might not have killed, but feeding off Buffy when he was poisoned (no matter that Buffy 'made' him) probably meant that they were more than happy to see him gone.

I think Giles might have been interested if the circumstances had been different.

1. I think this whole post was mostly in reaction to a certain type of (post-Chosen/NFA) fic where everyone is falling over themselves to apologise to Spike for being so mean during S7. Which - as you point out - just makes no sense.

2. :)

3. Re. Giles, then

yourlibrarian had a very interesting essay on Restless, analysing the meaning of Spike in the various dreams. Do read! :)

I suspect you could argue (in a totally non-Spander way of course *g*) that Xander and Spike had more interaction that could actually be described as civil, than Xander did with Angel.
Very good point! And I really think Xander did a lot of maturing between S6 and 7, considering how civil he became towards Spike.

Hee, I made my Spike all better and conveniently forgot about the whole slepping-with-Anya-incident (which I thought wasn't all that evil in my book anyway. Demons, vampires, people - they make unwise choices when depressed/angry/lonely....).

I was referring to that late S5, Summer of Dead Buffy time when talking about him having built a relationship with the Scoobies.

And *he* felt betrayed when they raised Buffy without telling him...

Interesting. I've nbever thought about it that way. I always reckoned that in the end he was happy enough to have Buffy back - and that made all feelings of betrayal non existant.

Had he known about Willow's plan, would he really have stopped her? I know that that is what he claims he would've done, but I think if push came to shove he would have been as egoistical as the rest. I just cannot see Spike saying "no" to having Buffy back.

Or did he know something about the ritual that would have weighed in on the decision? There's a whole fic in there somewhere: assuming he'd have known that Willow's path into darkness was a definite outcome of the ritual - would he have chosen to protect her? For the cost of not getting Buffy back, in whatever unknown condition Buffy might be? Would he have chosen Willow for Dawn, maybe? Okay, I'll stop the rant pronto.

Re:Re: Angel: I certainly would feel a little "icky" around someone who just feasted off my bestest friend *g*

As you can see in my icon, this is the scene where Spike decides he's going to blow Buffy's brains out. He then found her crying and comforted her, but we must remember, he still had that gun. lol.

If you try to look at him from the Scoobie point of view, then you won't woobie-fie (LMAO) him so much.

To be well-rounded characters have to have faults, and they should show them. If not, you are not showing the essense of who they are.

Too many people soften him up to fit whatever story they want to tell and ignore the bits they don't like, imo.

Hmmm... Interesting. I agree with her thoughts as far as Giles goes. I do think Giles sees Spike as an opportunist (an accurate description through mid-S5). I'm not sure his view ever changes much in that regard. I think that goes along with the theory that he just plain-old wouldn't care.

The Spike not appearing to Buffy is also interesting, too. Also the fact that none of Buffy's 'friends' appear to her, save for a tiny glimpse of Xander walking away. I'm going to have to ponder a bit on that.

I just had an intelligent, well thought out comment typed in, and my computer ate it! ARGGH! Well, I'll have to see if I can reproduce it...

1) I think that it was clearly Buffy herself who attached all the importance to Spike's soul, or his lack thereof. The scoobies may have used that lack as an excuse, but I'm not convinced they were as sold on it's importance as Buffy. And Buffy's perception was severely skewed by her experience with Angel.

I wish we could have watched the scoobies find out about the soul. The fact that we didn't get to see it irritated me back in season 7! I assume it was Buffy herself who broke the news (Which would have been a Big Deal to her) but I suppose it could have been Anya/nka. Remember she could see the soul, and Spike knocked her out as thanks.

2) the scoobies really dind't spend a lot of time with either vampire-- it was mostly Buffy. Angel sort of swept in and dropped his cryptic hints, and swept away. Spike lived with/ was imprisoned by both Giles and Xander, but except for the summer between season 5-6 he doesn't seem to interact with them very much.

3) Yeah, I agree. And Giles was clearly dealing with his grief at the loss of his friends and family, and feeling overwhelmed by the potentials. I'd like Giles to think it's important because I</i. think it's important, but Giles at heart is very practical. Remember who killed Ben? I'm not sure he can see beyond the "Vampire" lable any more. Though I still love Spike/ Giles friendship stories!

1. Oh, I think they knew - so much stuff happens off screen. I just don't think they cared. They'd already seen what people with a soul could do the previous year - Warren, Willow - so why would it be a big deal to them? Buffy has always been the one who cared about the soul (whether it be Angel's or Spike's), not the rest of them.

2. While I'm a sucker for fics in which Spike forges friendships with the Scoobies, that never really happened onscreen. We saw the beginnings of it at the end of S5 and the beginning of S6 (which is another reason I love those episodes), but with Buffy's return, he becomes completely focused on her again, and of course she doesn't want him around her friends once they begin their affair. Dawn was the only one of the group who was a real friend, and that all got shot to hell in S6 as well, of course.

3. Giles had no reason to admire Spike, and more reason than most to distrust him, given his history with Angelus and Jenny. He obviously had other things on his mind, but I did think it a bit out of character that Giles didn't show at least an academic interest in Spike's soul quest. (um, not write a thesis *g*) But then again I thought Giles was pretty much OOC for much of the season, anyway.

A long answer for, "yeah, I pretty much agree." :-)

I was referring to that late S5, Summer of Dead Buffy time when talking about him having built a relationship with the Scoobies
I think I sort of got that, but just chose to ignore it. ;)

Interesting. I've never thought about it that way.
This from

the_royal_anna's essay on season 6 Buffy and Spike (she is sooo much cleverer than me!):

Here's a thought. If anybody is going to bring Buffy back from the dead, it ought to be Spike. I think deep down he'd see that as his choice to make, as his right. He's the Big Bad. If anybody's going to be dabbling in the below-board stuff, it ought to be him. And then, while he's never really been a part of the Scoobies, he managed to find his way into the Buffy family unit. When Dawn tries to bring Joyce back in Forever, Spike will help her out even though he knows it can't end well. If she's going to do something dangerous, it'll be him that sees it through with her, not one of the Scoobies, both because he's better equipped for taking on this kind of danger, and because he's family.

You see, I can't believe for a minute that it wouldn’t have crossed Spike's mind that it could be done. Come on, this is the Spike who not so very long ago wanted Buffy so much he had a robot substitute made. This is the Spike that tells Xander, "Willow knew there was a chance that she'd come back wrong. So wrong that you'd have ... that she would have to get rid of what came back. And I wouldn't let her. If any part of that was Buffy, I wouldn't let her." And this is key for me – somewhere along the line, Spike has to have made the decision not to go there. Because he knows Buffy better than most, and he knows exactly what kind of reaction to expect from Buffy if something like this was carried out without her consent. He says to Dawn in Forever, don’t tell Buffy. He knows where she'd stand on it.

It's about control. He makes a decision. He'll do what Buffy would have wanted.

Except, the Scoobies go ahead and take that decision out of his hands. And yes, Spike is utterly excluded from the whole process, and that's bad enough, but where it really stings is that they usurp his right to make a choice and to follow it through.

I'm going to have to ponder a bit on that.
Please share your conclusions. :)

(And where did your lovely icons go?)

Very much in agreement with all your points.

I think one other thing is that Giles's characterisation changed quite drasticaly over the course of S2-3 from being the slightly geeky academic of S1 to showing very little interest in theories about demons and being much more focussed on the practical issues ie whether they were dangerous and how to defeat them. So I don't think it would have been at all in character for him to have got very interested in the philosophical implications of Spike's soul

These are very interesting points. I agree, the Scoobies shouldn't fall over themselves to bring Spike into the fold just because he acquired the soul. But I do find it strange that Giles wouldn't be fascinated by a Spike's decision to get the soul. That was completely different than the curse forced on Angel, and it flies into the face of what they understood vampires to be--without remorse of any kind.

And that brings me to my real question: why *didn't* Spike think he could (or should) apologize to Buffy et al? I believe he felt guilt pre-soul (for the AR), and he clearly felt guilt post-soul for the things he had done, so why not say to one and all, "I'm sorry. I feel terrible for what I did. There is no way I can make it up to you, but I'd like to show you that I'm making an effort to be a better person, and I'd appreciate your help with that. We've all made mistakes, but I want to work alongside you to do the right thing."

Way back in Season 4, Giles made a proposal to Spike to join them, and Spike rejected the offer. But by Season 7's Beneath You he was offering himself up as a helper: "I'm just a guy who can lend a hand, if you'll let me." So, he had clearly made some progress, but that's also the episode where he said, "I can't say sorry. Can't use forgive me. All I can say is: Buffy, I've changed."

So, please tell me: why can't he "say sorry"?

So do I. :)

Hungry computers are a baaad thing!

1. Very much agreed!

2. You just made me think of "That's it! I'm going to put a collar with a little bell on that guy!" Angel really was all about the cryptic - Spike just liked insulting people. :)

3. I think something ate the last bit of that comment, but I get your drift. I think his 'speech' in LMPTM is very telling.

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A few stray thoughts...

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