elisi: Edwin holding a tiny snowman (Default)
elisi ([personal profile] elisi) wrote2020-06-11 07:54 pm
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Update from The House of Plague, Day 87

Watching this is the calmest and happiest I've been in months:



And then lots more under the cut, because I don't want to clutter up your flist! But GOOD things and useful things. <3

OK moving the cut, because you need to watch this:




And then an uplifting one about how it's all going global:



~

Back to the UK, and here's to Diane Abbott:



~

And then lengthy thread here for anyone who wants to read up on trans issues:



And a more personal thread, with a different angle:



~

Sidebar: watch Staged, if you can (all of it on iPlayer, have only seen the first three episodes so far!!). It is very funny and Michael Sheen is an acting god. (DT is good, but MS has the edge here.) Also VERY FUNNY. Look at their lovely faces! <3

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Also STAY UNSPOILED! It's worth it.

~

And finally. Malaysian artist Koo Yean Ni, 'Floating over the sea', 2015:

Koo Yean Ni
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[identity profile] opalescence.livejournal.com 2020-06-12 03:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Question: How far back should we go in destroying or removing statues and monuments? Over here, should we destroy everything on back through George Washington?

Is it possible to be enlightened and separate the good and the bad that someone did. In many case, the great things that someone did in history? And then teach our children the same?
elisi: Edwin holding a tiny snowman (Lie of the Land)

[personal profile] elisi 2020-06-12 03:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Question: How far back should we go in destroying or removing statues and monuments? Over here, should we destroy everything on back through George Washington?
I don't know. However, I think it's a good rule of thumb to remember that statues are how we honour people we admire. If someone is deeply problematic or flawed, that should be reflected in how we remember them... There is a good example in the British entertainer Jimmy Saville. He was very popular & beloved, he did a lot for charity, the whole country was sad when he died. And then it came to light that he was a pedophile and had used his fame to cover it up (much like Harvey Weinstein). There was a statue of him in a shopping mall, which was taken down as soon as allegations were published. And they literally dug him up from where he had been buried (with a fancy memorial) and buried him elsewhere. However, I doubt he will be forgotten. How do you weigh up the money he gave to charity with the pain he caused? (This is a ramble, I'm just thinking out loud.) In short, I don't think we should honour people who caused pain.

I think the best idea would be to do what they have done in Eastern Europe - to dump all the problematic statues in a a single place and to keep it as a place of education. And to teach history better. I had never heard of Edward Coulston until his statue was torn down and thrown in the harbour, and to be honest it's a good place for it. The background to that (not sure how up to date you are on British news *g*) is that people had tried to have it removed for years. Then they tried to get a plaque put on it to explain that he wasn't just a philanthropist, but a slave trader. Everything was shot down. So I'm not surprised that the protestors took matters into their own hands. (Ditto Columbus. What a despicable human being.) And yet this isn't reflected in the school curriculum.

Is it possible to be enlightened and separate the good and the bad that someone did. In many case, the great things that someone did in history? And then teach our children the same?
Education is the key. (And oh, that is very true in this country too. Kids can recite the wives of Henry the 8th, but learn next to nothing about Britain's role in the slave trade or black history...) It's not easy, but I hope it'll be possible, going forward.

Hope you don't mind me rambling on. I'm a very average white woman, and I think the conversation needs to be led by those whom it affects? Much like if they decided to put up a statute of Harvey Weinstein, women would be angry and demand that it be taken down.

[identity profile] opalescence.livejournal.com 2020-06-12 07:11 pm (UTC)(link)
I appreciate your thoughtful response.

In this country, the mob should not rule. I do not agree with the vandalism. If a vote by the majority of the citizens in each town or city agrees that the monuments should be removed, so be it. In the case of our nation's capital, I would think that vote should be a national referendum as Washington DC is the capital of the USA and we should all have a say.

Better yet, have a plaque fashioned for the base of each statue or monument listing the offenses of the person who has been honored.

I condemn what happened to Mr. Floyd and my heart breaks for his family. I condemn racism and feel that the police should review their personnel and procedures and training and take the appropriate actions. I cannot support defunding or abolishing the police.

My husband was a police officer and a good one. The great majority of these men and women are good and decent people who care and who put their lives on the line every single day for our safety and well being. I support the men and women in blue.

I'll just close my comment with this. A country which hides it's mistakes is doomed to repeat them.
elisi: Edwin holding a tiny snowman (Lie of the Land)

[personal profile] elisi 2020-06-13 09:28 am (UTC)(link)
I appreciate your thoughtful response.
I appreciate you talking to me in the first place. <3

In this country, the mob should not rule. I do not agree with the vandalism.
For me, at least, there is a difference between random vandalism, and the tearing down of racist monuments. The latter feels like justice, from people who have been silenced for untold generations. Like this moment. It's history in front of our eyes.

If a vote by the majority of the citizens in each town or city agrees that the monuments should be removed, so be it. In the case of our nation's capital, I would think that vote should be a national referendum as Washington DC is the capital of the USA and we should all have a say.
I can see what you mean. But I don't agree. Because the monuments mean different things to different people. (There is a very thoughtful article here about someone living in Bristol and what the statue meant.) And what if the people voted to keep the statues? Because that could happen. Do we want to honour racists in 2020? Do we want the black/indigenous/people of colour to know that their pain, that the crimes committed against them is worth less than a monument? /rhetorical questions, I'm just thinking out loud

Better yet, have a plaque fashioned for the base of each statue or monument listing the offenses of the person who has been honored.
Better still, replace them with statues of those they repressed & murdered. Same history, different angle. Excellent example here.

My husband was a police officer and a good one. The great majority of these men and women are good and decent people who care and who put their lives on the line every single day for our safety and well being. I support the men and women in blue.
I very much understand how personal this must be for you. And I don't think anyone is denying that there are a lot of good cops. However there are far too many bad ones. Like a restaurant where some of the cooks like to put poison in the food, and it just keeps happening. Something needs doing to stop that, but I'm not an expert in any way shape or form, but taking away all the military gear seems a very good start.

Overall, I think this sign sums up the protests best. Although they have (as far as I can tell) become almost 100% peaceful, and just keep growing. <3 ETA: I would add that one of the most wonderful things to see is how things are changing already. There are ripple effects, there are conversations being had, and it's worldwide. Hopefully we can make changes for the better, for good.

I'll just close my comment with this. A country which hides it's mistakes is doomed to repeat them.
I rambled again, sorry. Hope you don't mind. And very much agreed with your last line. I am watching my own country with despair and am wondering how often they can make the same mistakes. :(
Edited 2020-06-13 10:10 (UTC)
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