Not a saint.

[elisi]

Will try to reply to all the comments on my last post, but with my parents arriving at lunch time it make take a while... I will get there though. I love replying to comments! And the discussions are *so* much fun!

Anyway, pondering all these things - and having watched 'Destiny' the day before yesterday - I had a thought:

I'm thinking that one reason Joss insisted on the Spike/Harmony (almost) sex scene was to stop the whole 'Spike is a saint and Buffy an Angel-kissing slut who doesn't deserve him or his perfect love!'

A few points:

1. Buffy knew she'd screwed up kissing Angel. She was asking Spike's *permission* to sleep in her own basement, and would have left if he'd not changed his mind.

2. Spike declared his love to be selfless. For him then to turn around and say that he ain't interested anymore because what Buffy's got to offer ain't good enough just strikes me as incredibly petty. ETA: I don't think he should let her use him, but then I don't think she would do that anyway (and she was *helping* him throughout S7!). Which of course ties in with my next point. ETA2: I can't see him staying away because he's worried she'll break his heart. He might stay away because he can't see a *future* for them, but that's different.

3. I think he needed to figure out who he was on his own terms, before he and Buffy could get back together (which they did post-NFA!). He was *incredibly* dependent on Buffy in S7 (although he began finding his own feet, starting with *Buffy* forcing him to in GiD).

All in all this whole thing is *way* too complex and I just need to back away.

*backs away*

ETA3: And then - what do you know? avrelia has written pretty much all the thoughts that are in my head! Go read them here! :)

Comments

[ruuger]

Buffy knew she'd screwed up kissing Angel. She was asking Spike's *permission* to sleep in her own basement, and would have left if he'd not changed his mind.

Never thought about it that way, but now that you say it... Yeah, that works for me :)

The kiss never really bothered me that much because I thought it (like the whole Angel cameo) was pretty much just the obligatory series finale fanwank to please the oldschoolers - it was completely unnecessary storywise, but I knew to expect it (I blame X-Files for lowering my standards on final episodes). In my head Buffy only did it because she was caught in the moment and Angel only did it because he knew that Spike was in the room and that it would piss him off - I mean, if he smelled him on Buffy, he must have smelled him being in the room too :)

And the Spike/Harmony almost-shag and his bad treatment of her never really bothered me either because the way I see it, it ties to the reason why Angel treated Spike so badly even post-soul - because she, like Spike in Angel's case, reminds him of who he used to be (and because Spike was horny and knew that Harmony was probably the only person in the building who would sleep with him).

[elisi]

Yeah, that works for me :)
*is pleased*

pretty much just the obligatory series finale fanwank to please the oldschoolers
Nostalgia fest!

I mean, if he smelled him on Buffy, he must have smelled him being in the room too :)
Ah yes. Partly nostalgia, maybe pissing Spike off and partly *this*, to quote germaine_pet's Vicarious:

The last time Angel had kissed Buffy, she had smelled of Spike. He’d kissed her hard, then, more roughly than he’d planned.

Me thinks it might have been a turn-on! (Seriously, check out the fic - it is quite simply the greatest Spike/Angel fic of all time. And it's short.)

she, like Spike in Angel's case, reminds him of who he used to be
Indeed. Incessantly so! And then he goes and breaks that habit at the end of 'Harm's Way'. :)

[shapinglight]

I have to say I feel you're overthinking this a bit. I doubt there was anything more in Joss's head when he insisted on the desktop shag than, "Spike's a bloke, he hasn't got his rocks off for a long time, Harmony's pretty and convenient and he has past history with her and zero respect for her.'

I doubt the name 'Buffy' entered Joss's consciousness at all.

[elisi]

You're probably right! *g*

[hesadevil.livejournal.com]

All in all this whole thing is *way* too complex and I just need to back away.
Love's a funny thing!

[elisi]

Indeed.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I don't think Spike was ever a saint. If he were, he's be my least favorite character just like Tara, the Jossverse saint character. He just grabbed Harmony to sleep with her because he can touch again, Harmony was also a 'nothing' to him so it didn't matter. As for Buffy, for all he knew, maybe she was out there dating someone else. And in the end, Spike and Buffy were not in a relationship in S7, so it doesn't really matter.

[elisi]

in the end, Spike and Buffy were not in a relationship in S7, so it doesn't really matter.
Wouldn't say that. Xander and Anya weren't 'in a relationship' either, but if she came back to life I'd expect her to find Xander as soon as she could!

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I think Anya would look for Xander, not to start a relationship but maybe because he's the only one who cares to help her IMO. I don't think if Anya slept with a man while doing so would have any effect because she and Xander aren't a couple.

Besides, Spike wanted to go to Buffy first he came back to life, but couldn't. I think it's just a guy thing what he had with Harmony. I don't know, I just don't see it as a big deal, it's kinda like Anya sleeping with Spike in Entropy, only more of a guy happy he's able to screw a girl, than a guy trying to move on. What I'm saying is, Buffy has no place to be angry at Spike for sleeping with Anya, just like Xander and Buffy had no place to be angry with Spike and Anya shagging in Entropy.