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Extremis (DW S10.6)
Welcome to the meta café, one and all. Make yourselves at home, this is a long one. ETA: Now dedicated to
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
maia - Happy Birthday! ♥First of all a few points that don't fit anywhere else:
- I adore Nardole. Not just because it's v useful having non-human companion w/greater knowledge of technology/the wider universe, but of course also his [not so] secret Badassness. <3
- Bill continues to be a delight, and her interrupted date is one of the funniest things I have seen. (Check out Tumblr’s ‘Interrupting Pope’ meme!) She is smart and bewildered and scared and the Doctor is so gentle when they are finally reunited, and he has to explain what is happening.
- Generally assume that I liked everything. Everyone at CERN drinking wine. Missy's snarky asides. The way the episode was structured. How the plot unfolded. Etc.
- Quick point however, re. the Doctor calling Bill and telling her 'Call Penny tonight.' As you are probably aware, episode 11 is called 'World Enough and Time', which is obviously taken from Andrew Marvell's To His Coy Mistress. (But at my back I always hear/Time’s wingèd chariot hurrying near - the Doctor can hear it very keenly indeed...)
But. This episode tapped into so many things, that I have been forced to somehow narrow them down…
However, since it is not actually physically possible to take into account 9 years worth of storytelling & meta, this will be me touching on certain aspects that particularly stood out… Because in this one, not surprisingly, we are going all the way back to The Library. In many many ways. Let’s just start with the silliest one first. :)
It's funny, but also ties in with the larger themes. From Oxygen:
DOCTOR: The universe shows its true face when it asks for help. We show ours by how we respond.
The Doctor asks for help - with a kiss. :)
The Doctor has used his reputation/history/death toll before:
DOCTOR: Because this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to rescue her. I'm going to save Rose Tyler from the middle of the Dalek fleet. And then I'm going to save the Earth, and then, just to finish off, I'm going to wipe every last stinking Dalek out of the sky!
DALEK: But you have no weapons, no defences, no plan.
DOCTOR: Yeah. And doesn't that scare you to death?
Bad Wolf
DOCTOR: Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I liked. That is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor, and you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up.
(There is a pause, then the shadows withdraw.)
VASHTA NERADA: You have one day.
Forest of the Dead
DOCTOR: Could you all just stay still a minute because I am talking! The question of the hour is, who's got the Pandorica? Answer, I do. Next question. Who's coming to take it from me? Come on! Look at me. No plan, no back up, no weapons worth a damn. Oh, and something else. I don't have anything to lose! So, if you're sitting up there in your silly little spaceship, with all your silly little guns, and you've got any plans on taking the Pandorica tonight, just remember who's standing in your way. Remember every black day I ever stopped you, and then, and then, do the smart thing. Let somebody else try first.
The Pandorica Opens
There are different reasons for the grandstanding - warnings, buying time etc.
But here the context [of the episode] is different than what we have seen before. Allow me to demonstrate:
The Doctor wants forgiveness (“Don’t we all?”), but as he is not a believer (“Funny, I don’t believe much. I’m not sure I believe anything”) the Church’s offer is not something he can avail himself of.
However this is probably one reason why forgiveness (living without all that guilt) is something which matters to him greatly, something he wishes for, knowing it is impossible, and something he offers to others freely:
Clara’s story in the S8 finale - and the Doctor’s response, as shown above, helped throw this into fresh light, and it’s something especially pertinent wrt Missy. He knows Missy will betray him if she gets the chance. She’ll never ‘turn good’, no matter how much she pleads, but that doesn’t make a difference to how he treats her here.
But - we need to make a distinction between ‘saving’ and ‘salvation’ - that is, saving someone physically, and saving their soul…
‘Divine intervention therefore is permitted for a maximum of five minutes.’ This might be my favourite line out of all of it. But the key point is the Doctor’s ‘immortal soul and any peril thereunto.’
Of course, the Doctor has been ready to kill Missy before, and she saw the danger too (in the S8 finale when a distraught Clara would have killed Missy in retribution, and the Doctor stepped in and offered to do the deed himself):
The Doctor spends his life saving others, but who saves HIM? Often his companions, but again there is the distinction between physically saving and saving someone’s soul. And River was the first one to spell that out… The woman born to kill him, but who instead (repeatedly) sacrificed her life to save him (giving up her regenerations, her freedom, her life). And because their lives were so entwined, she could see very clearly where the issue lay:
Clara picked up River’s mantle, holding the Doctor to the mark when needed:
But Clara is of course gone, so it is beautifully fitting that River reaches out once more, this time from beyond the grave, to stop the Doctor from making a mistake:
What her feelings are regarding Missy is anyone’s guess. But we can be sure she does not want her husband to carry the guilt that would come with killing his best friend.
Although the ‘priest’s’ opening is telling:
“Greetings sinner. Only in darkness are we revealed.”
‘Sinner’ is not a word heard often in Doctor Who. But it fits here. We are all sinners, we are all on the same playing field. It's a counterpoint to the 'divine intervention' and to seeing the Doctor's actions as somehow god-like. Greetings sinner. He is powerful, but still mortal, still accountable for his deeds.
The line ‘In darkness are we revealed’ is also important - especially since later we have the Doctor confiding in Missy:
Circling back to the Forgiveness theme… the Doctor in many ways has a confessor already. Not someone who can forgive him, obviously, but someone to confess to.
I sincerely doubt this is a good idea.
And now for a collection of images (images are a shortcut, as I cannot possibly lay all this out in writing without creating a 10,000+ word essay)...
Guarding Gallifrey, our Childhood, our Home
The Doctor guarding his people/his childhood friend. And in both cases he is protecting the world from them. Time Lords are dangerous. But he is also devoted, guarding the crack for best part of a thousand years, and committing to another thousand for the Vault.
Women in Boxes
River is obviously the odd one out, as she could come and go as she pleased, and wasn’t guarded/protected by a loved one.
But River is also the only one of these who had agency, who chose the box as the price she was willing to pay for the choices she made.
DOCTOR: Sometimes the only choices you have are bad ones. But you still have to choose.
Mummy on the Orient Express
Agency could quite possibly turn out to be one of the major themes this season -
shadowkat lays it out beautifully in this comment. Missy’s *lack* of agency so far will probably be a feature, as she has never been willing to just sit back and let others decide. TWoRS paralells
The Prison rising out of a lake
The truth that has to be spoken
The execution of a Time Lord
The twist, where the executioner refuses to play along
And finally, the Doctor visiting the prisoner (a woman in a box)
There is a sense that the characters have played musical chairs, but the beats of the story are remarkably similar (I’m not saying this is a bad thing - quite the opposite. Day of the Doctor was River’s story in miniature. A good story is always worth revisiting. Indeed, there is only a limited number of basic stories that can be told, the differences lies in the *how*.)
It’s even in things like the fact that it’s more than possible that the Doctor was as unwilling a participant in Missy’s execution as River was in the Doctor’s. Who would *volunteer* to kill someone then guard the dead body for a thousand years?
Ditto we don’t know why Missy was sentenced to death, or whom by. Given her history it could be anything, but remember, the Doctor was going to be killed quite simply for being the Doctor.
So yes - it’s interesting to reflect that the Doctor has been *exactly* where Missy found herself.
If this is all a dream, whose dream is it?
First of all, a couple of links for those who are interested in the philosophical/theological/historical underpinnings of the episode. Well worth your time. (With thanks to
enevarim):Adam Riggio: When a Legendary Fear Is True
One of Descartes’ most famous ideas was first articulated by a woman
(By the way, this is where I ran out of energy & time to make pretty pictures. Imagine them please.)
The Library is, as always, the foundation of all of Moffat Who. Although I did compile an (undoubtedly incomplete) list of times when dreams/virtual realities/duplicates of our characters have been a feature:
Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead (people being saved to the data core, virtual lives)
Journey’s End (Ten!Too is still the Doctor, despite being human)
Amy’s Choice (alternative realities/dreams, need to die in the dream to take up in reality)
The Big Bang (pocket universe, need to escape/reboot, Nestene!Rory is still Rory)
The Rebel Flesh/Almost People (the duplicate Doctor is still the Doctor)
The Name of the Doctor: All the Clara echoes are still Clara
Girl Who Waited (different time streams, older!Amy and young!Amy are both Amy)
Wedding of River Song (broken time, different reality, mangled memories, still themselves)
The Bells of St John (people killed/uploaded to computer)
Robot of Sherwood (are we more important as people or as stories, is Robin Hood 'real'? does it matter?)
Dark Water/Death in Heaven (dead people uploaded onto Time Lord matrix)
Last Christmas (dream in a dream in a dream - Inception - dream check: book test)
The Zygon Inversion (Clara in dreamworld, dream check: newspaper)
And in the Library the questions of what is ‘real’, and what it means to be ‘saved’ are both at the heart of everything.
The Library belongs to a little girl who lives in a virtual world, and she effortlessly steps between the real and the imaginary. Here is the relevant dialogue for those who can't immediately bring to mind the plot of an episode from 2008...
ANITA: It's the little girl. The girl we saw in the computer.
LUX: She's not in the computer. In a way, she is the computer. The main command node. This is Cal.
DOCTOR: Cal is a child? A child hooked up to a mainframe? Why didn't you tell me this? I needed to know this!
LUX: Because she's family! Cal. Charlotte Abigail Lux. My grandfather's youngest daughter. She was dying, so he built her a library and put her living mind inside, with a moon to watch over her, and all of human history to pass the time. Any era to live in, any book to read. She loved books more than anything, and he gave her them all. He asked only that she be left in peace. A secret, not a freak show.
DOCTOR: So you weren't protecting a patent, you were protecting her.
LUX: This is only half a life, of course. But it's for ever.
DOCTOR: And then the shadows came.
GIRL NODE: The shadows. I have to. I have to save. Have to save.
DOCTOR: And she saved them. She saved everyone in the library. Folded them into her dreams and kept them safe.
Donna is ‘saved’, but her life in the computer is a dream… And so are some of the people in it:
MISS EVANGELISTA: Your children are not real. They're fictions. I'm sorry, but now that you understand that, you won't be able to keep a hold. They are sustained only by your belief.
[...]
DONNA: Okay. That was lovely, wasn't it? That was a lovely bedtime. We had warm milk, and we watched cartoons, and then Mummy read you a lovely bedtime story.
ELLA: Mummy, Joshua and me, we're not real, are we?
DONNA: Of course you're real. You're as real as anything. Why do you say that?
JOSHUA: But, Mummy, sometimes, when you're not here, it's like we're not here.
ELLA: Even when you close your eyes, we just stop.
DONNA: Well, Mummy promises to never close her eyes again.
(The children have vanished. Donna is frantic.)
DONNA: No! Please! No, please! No! No, no! No, no!
These children are basically computer programmes. Were they real? (Similarly, were CAL's father and 'Doctor Moon'?) Did Donna's belief make them real? Remember, in the end they join CAL, and River reads them bedtime stories...
Bill says: "I need to know what's real and what isn't real."
The Doctor later (to the Monk) observes: "Oh, you don't have to be real to be the Doctor."
But belief is an important part of this. The Doctor a little later muses: "Funny, I don’t believe much. I’m not sure I believe anything. But right now belief is all I am."
Belief is a powerful thing. One of my favourite lines from the Buffy 'verse was:
'Reality bends to desire'
It's in connection with a ghost willing (believing) himself to be able to interact with the physical world.
As soon as the Doctor started talking about all the issues (and Mario deleting himself from the game) I was reminded of 'Wreck It Ralph', an animated movie whose the plot follows that exact format, except not so much deleting, as escaping from. (It's also the underlying plot of Sophie's World of course.)
The other side is those who go the other way - who come from the real world and become part of the virtual/dream...
DOCTOR: There's always one thing you can do from inside a computer. Even if you're a jumped-up little subroutine, you can do it. You can always e-mail!
Nardole says he came from Darillium. However I have a feeling he spoke with River in the Library when he went to fetch the Diary. I may have been influenced somewhat by still vividly remembering this (created by
owlboy back in the day):Brb. Library.
— River Song (@riverxsong) October 11, 2010
...That sucked. Whats cool though is I can now update from INSIDE the computer.
— River Song (@riverxsong) October 12, 2010
Finally, I shall draw on some meta that
promethia_tenk wrote a long time ago (April 2010, before Time of Angels aired, and all we knew of River was her Library episode appearance):River Song, the Moffat, and Myth (analysis/speculation)
So let’s say that the library really is the sum total of all knowledge--ultimate, perfect knowledge. But by bringing together all those books, the creator of the library also brought together all the monsters that would take it over. Why? In myth knowledge is a dangerous thing. The end of ignorance is the beginning of suffering and death, curiosity gets you punished, and perfect knowledge is meant only for the gods. Adam and Eve are kicked out of the garden, Pandora’s box is opened, Prometheus is chained to the rock and tortured. How, then, can the universe allow mortals the infinite knowledge of the library? It can’t. The library is covered in shadows, and those who come to the library either die or become immortals. The Doctor gives the library over to the Vashta Nerada because there are limits to what the living can know.
In Extremis we are taken to the Haereticum, the library of forbidden and heretical texts. Dangerous knowledge hidden, only available to the few. And those who read the Veritas kill themselves. Too much knowledge can be dangerous, but it should be put in the context of the fact that the pursuit of knowledge is generally a good thing. The Vault is positioned below a university, and the Doctor has an actual job as a lecturer, as well as tutoring Bill academically. And running around saving the universe does not stop her from having homework. Learning is applauded, and the Doctor generally saves the day by *thinking* his way of of the situation.
The Doctor has to leave River--and her book--hidden beyond the shadows of the library because he still has living to do, but now we know that his life is going to be touched by what she represents. Every hero needs a guide to help them on their journey, so we see her, for example, drawing him where he needs to be to find out what he needs to know (the note on the psychic paper). She acts as a brain to his heart (“You need to stop being so emotional right now”/”pull him out of there when he’s too stupid to live”).
And now, she has become the heart to his brain: Don’t kill your friend. Be a Doctor. Be my Doctor.
River's death, however, is really a transcendence as she is absorbed into the library. Now all-knowing and eternal, I don’t think we can really continue to think about her in human terms--she’s become a symbol. She’s also become a storyteller--*the* storyteller. Maybe she is meant to seem maternal in that final scene, but more importantly she’s the wise woman telling the children (and telling us) the tales that give shape and meaning and redemption to our lives.
I'm sure you can see how relevant this is to our current story...
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or at least it is unproven. (“Or perhaps it doesn't matter either way.“) Still, Ten might have been remembering backwards as well as forwards with his “Oh, we've all done that.”
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♥ ♥ ♥
Also, at some point, one of us is going to have to do the River Song and Beatrice meta. Possibly not today.
Hmmmmmm. *ponders* I have already assigned Rose as Beatrice (see The Hollow Men), and although I can see what you mean, I shall probably need convicting.
But the only immediate thought beyond a loud and singing joy was thinking that I remembered in Battlefield that the Doctor's note to himself with Arthur's body was signed “Love, the Doctor”, but transcript suggests I was misremembering:
He could very well have. Who's to say? It rings a bell, but I think it's for a vid where Ten!Too commits suicide, so not terribly cheery.
“Or perhaps it doesn't matter either way.“) Still, Ten might have been remembering backwards as well as forwards with his “Oh, we've all done that.”
Quite probably! :D
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And, okay, on a different and trivial level, the Doctor calling Nardole “Mum”.
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You did write 'and' I just presumed the link. *g*
Another possible explanation is that he was one of those rare men who know what their wives … really think about them.
That certainly is the Doctor, yes.
(It's been an age since I read Dante & the introductions. Well, it was back when I wrote the Hollow Men meta.)
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Just friended you for that!
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I can now claim that I got you a new friend for your birthday!
(Although I will also happily dedicate the meta to you, should you want it. <3)
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I would be honored.
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♥ ♥
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Virtue is only virtue in extremis
Critical Incident Technique is a way of measuring how well an organisation or operation works by seeing how it acts when it doesn't work according to script. How do pilots act when the autopilot malfunctions, how do hotel clerks act when the guests start yelling at them, how do doctors act when the patient crashes... How well does the narrative of Doctor Who hold up in extremis, in its last (sort of ) season? Will it stick to the script, or will it have to improvise?
Women in boxes
But also Timelords in boxes. In a way, isn't the TARDIS - the thing that enables/forces the Doctor to keep travelling, keep getting into situations, keep having to make hard choices - a prison of a sort? Is complete freedom to also complete freedom from, or the opposite? That which gives power is also a trap.
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Nice one. And Moffat described Extremis thusly:
”But it was my last chance to see how far you can bend this show before it breaks. Forgive the indulgence.”
But also Timelords in boxes. In a way, isn't the TARDIS - the thing that enables/forces the Doctor to keep travelling, keep getting into situations, keep having to make hard choices - a prison of a sort?
It's disguised as a POLICE box. So yes. I'm sure I have done something with boxes & the TARDIS and people in and out of boxes (probably back when I was wondering if maybe Clara was one and certainly with regards to River), but the lack of TARDIS (relatively speaking) in this episode meant that I never even thought of it... (This is why the meta is NEVERENDING. There are always tons of things I don't think of. /o\)
Is complete freedom to also complete freedom from, or the opposite? That which gives power is also a trap.
I shall have to ponder this line of thought further, thank you.
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Heh. I hadn't seen that. Thanks for the serendipity! :)
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That quote gave me VERY high hopes for the episode. :) And yes, great minds clearly think alike...
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♥
But also Timelords in boxes. In a way, isn't the TARDIS - the thing that enables/forces the Doctor to keep travelling, keep getting into situations, keep having to make hard choices - a prison of a sort? Is complete freedom to also complete freedom from, or the opposite? That which gives power is also a trap.
YES.
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Thank you. It was a labour of love.
It goes beyond that to wonder what the reality of 'I am' actually means. And I think the answer it gives is a very religious one: that when cogito ergo sum is not sufficient, love can be the answer.
Mmmmm, yes. The original theological/philosophical argument is fascinating.
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Thank you so much,
♥ ♥
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The note on the psychic paper in Silence in the Library, do we know if that from River or from the Doctor himself or was it just the paper showing what the Doctor needed to see?
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-Nardole has really grown on me! I resented him at first for taking time and attention away from Bill (why should the queer black girl have to share her companionship with Matt Lucas?) but I’ve really warmed to him, as I feel like the show is using him well. Also, I suddenly realised that he is effectively K9 – he is the tin dog. And that helped me contextualise him.
-BILL <3333333 god I don’t even have words for how much I love her, and her and Twelve’s relationship.
-Loved your whole section on forgiveness/confession. Nothing to add, but it is beautiful. I remember that line, ‘Do you think I care for you so little…’ made me cry the first time I watched it, and I love how you’ve tied it together with River and Missy here. (Confessing to Missy is DEFINITELY NOT A GOOD IDEA). Stray thought: he should confess to the Tardis. Isn’t the confessional a box?
-Allll the parallels and nods back to the Library/The Sound of Drums/The Wedding of River Song etc are wonderful, of course, but I particularly like the return of the Guarding Gallifrey/Guarding *from* Gallifrey thing. The Doctor’s relationship with Gallifrey by this point is SO layered and complex.
-With the TWoRS parallels, it really does look like this week we’re getting a version of that alternative universe/The Year That Never Was from The Sound of Drums. I really want to have interesting thoughts on this, but my brain is just a big blank gaping hole at the moment /o\
-‘Bill says: "I need to know what's real and what isn't real."’ – it’s interesting that this theme of reality vs non-reality is continuing, because it’s something I associate so strongly with Clara. I mean, I know all the companions experience it to some extent, especially Donna and Amy – your list is v useful! – but Clara is associated with a ‘state of dreaming’ (thinking of niyalune’s lovely vid) since her first episode, and so in my mind this question is really linked to her. Her need for control and categorisation – Real vs Not Real – and how this is continually slipping from her grasp.
-I’ve enjoyed the Doctor’s continual grapple with the nature of ‘belief’ – reminded me of The Satan Pit, waaaay back in the day, when Ten said something like ‘if I believe in just one thing, I believe in her’ (Rose). Ties in also to Eleventy’s lines about his companions – ‘you are all I ever remember’, and ‘my friends have always been the best of me’ (another of my favourite lines). What the Doctor believes in above all else is the essential goodness of the people he loves. And, as we’ve seen on multiple occasions, that continues to be true in any version of reality.
-This meta reminded me (as did a comment above about the Tardis and freedom to/freedom from) of a lovely Vienna Teng song that I’ve associated with DW ever since The God Complex – do you know Augustine ? ‘Lead me now / I understand / faith is both a prison / and an open hand’. Feel this applies v strongly to the Doctor.
-That's a wonderful bit of meta from Promethia - shows just how coherent and consistent the show has been, that it's even more relevant now, years on. The thing about knowledge, as I think someone in another context pointed out, is that it's really not much good sans context - what you really want is WISDOM. A very simplistic definition could be knowledge + context. Or perhaps knowledge + experience. You can know *all the things in the world* and still make stupid mistakes and terrible decisions if you don't know how to *use* that knowledge ('the context is all' - a quote from The Handmaid's Tale I think about a lot) ...again, my brain WANTS to go somewhere with this, and apply it properly to DW, and specifically to Bill, but it's just stalled.
-aaaaAAAAAAAAAaaaaaargh this is so fucking FRUSTRATING, I feel so utterly incoherent and unable to expand on any thought /o\ it’s like my brain is stuffed with cotton wool :-(
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Pft. It took me a week to create, and I still can't really believe I actually posted it before the next episode aired. ;) All comments welcome, always, and it's nice to have a break in order to reply properly.
This is wonderful, as ever <3 I’ve really missed all this – am so glad the meta café is back!
Me tooooooo! <333
-Nardole has really grown on me!
I liked him, ever since Dr Mystrio. He's sassy and not afraid to tell the Doctor what he thinks. And it helps balance out the dynamic - Nardole is the old hand and can push back effectively against the Doctor (and run around & help out with alien tech etc) so Bill doesn't have to shoulder that alone. (I give you my 'sassy Nardole' icon. *g*)
-BILL <3333333 god I don’t even have words for how much I love her, and her and Twelve’s relationship.
Bill is just a DARLING.
-Loved your whole section on forgiveness/confession. Nothing to add, but it is beautiful.
Thank you. This episode touched on SO MANY THINGS.
Stray thought: he should confess to the Tardis. Isn’t the confessional a box?
!!!!
I particularly like the return of the Guarding Gallifrey/Guarding *from* Gallifrey thing. The Doctor’s relationship with Gallifrey by this point is SO layered and complex.
*beams* That was one of my favourite bits. Esp using the title of the Gallifrey theme, because it covered everything I wanted.
I really want to have interesting thoughts on this, but my brain is just a big blank gaping hole at the moment /o\
Oh I know that feeling!! My brain took forever to get into gear. And then it wouldn't shut up. Here's to Doctor Who's 1984 AU!
it’s interesting that this theme of reality vs non-reality is continuing, because it’s something I associate so strongly with Clara. I mean, I know all the companions experience it to some extent, especially Donna and Amy – your list is v useful!
It's great, isn't it? I'm sure I've forgotten some, but it's all over the show...
– but Clara is associated with a ‘state of dreaming’ (thinking of niyalune’s lovely vid) since her first episode, and so in my mind this question is really linked to her. Her need for control and categorisation – Real vs Not Real – and how this is continually slipping from her grasp.
LOVE THAT VID. And yes, Clara was Schodinger's Companion, reality warping around her right from the start. So it'll be interesting to see how Bill copes, presuming episode 8 is an AU - she's been such a solid, grounded character so far, that I'm curious how she'll cope.
reminded me of The Satan Pit, waaaay back in the day, when Ten said something like ‘if I believe in just one thing, I believe in her’ (Rose).
Proton remembered that too, and was terrified that Twelve would actually quote it. But we got lucky and avoided that. ;)
What the Doctor believes in above all else is the essential goodness of the people he loves. And, as we’ve seen on multiple occasions, that continues to be true in any version of reality.
Indeed. (Except, say, Clara throwing all the TARDIS keys into a volcano...)
a lovely Vienna Teng song that I’ve associated with DW ever since The God Complex
ALL Vienna Teng songs fit with DW I think, but I am not sure I know that one (which is odd, I shall have to look it up).
‘Lead me now / I understand / faith is both a prison / and an open hand’. Feel this applies v strongly to the Doctor.
Mmmmm yes, definitely looking it up. (Love Vienna Teng.)
-That's a wonderful bit of meta from Promethia - shows just how coherent and consistent the show has been, that it's even more relevant now, years on.
I think that's a very important thing - if a show sticks with consistent symbolism, it'll work.
You can know *all the things in the world* and still make stupid mistakes and terrible decisions if you don't know how to *use* that knowledge ('the context is all' - a quote from The Handmaid's Tale I think about a lot) ...again, my brain WANTS to go somewhere with this, and apply it properly to DW, and specifically to Bill, but it's just stalled.
Yes, context. I want to do something with that too...
-aaaaAAAAAAAAAaaaaaargh this is so fucking FRUSTRATING, I feel so utterly incoherent and unable to expand on any thought /o\ it’s like my brain is stuffed with cotton wool :-(
We have all been there. And at some point it'll go away. Here, have a fantastic Clara/Twelve vid which I keep rewatching (and which you might already know, of course):
Pulse by KatrinDepp
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Except, say Clara throwing all the TARDIS keys into a volcano
True, that is not her finest moment (though I LOVE IT and one day I will make a vid about Clara and Willow Rosenberg, and their parallel spirals into addiction and sketchy behaviour and hidden wells of rage and how much I love them both and am scared by my own over-identification with them) er anyway what was I saying? Oh yes - I actually meant that the Doctor's *belief* in his companions' essential goodness continues into any version of reality. :)
VIENNA TENG <333 I don't understand how all her songs are about DW but they REALLY ARE. (What I want more than anything, as I think I've told you before, is for someone who isn't me to make me the River/Doctor vid of my heart to 'Eric's Song' but nobody's obliged yet)
And aaaaah yes I love that KatrinnDepp vid! She is soooo talented.
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I would watch this. Hard.
Just sayin' ; )
But then my slow-burn love for Willow Rosenberg was basically cemented by her deciding to destroy the world and I think that volcano scene just might be my favorite Clara scene of all.
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Stupid DW, I don't have my Willow icon. This is it:
ETA: OK, after Proton's comment I feel dutybound to mention Weird Science.
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I've done a very large amount of planning on a season 7/8/9 vid set to the Take Me To Church/I Put a Spell on You medley, with the I Put a Spell on You part focusing on Clara with requisite Doctor and Missy mirroring. That, however, feels slightly on the nose for a vid about an actual witch.
The think that always intrigued me about Willow is that she ended up having the classic mad scientist oversteps their bounds storyline, except with magic instead of science. Not that there are an abundance of songs about mad scientists, but that's always kind of how I've thought of her.
I'll let you know if anything comes to me.
(I don't have a Willow icon right now. Lily will have to do.)
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omg I was not aware of that medley and it is amaaaaaaaazing and I will watch the HELL out of this vid! I love love loved your radioactive vid, and can't wait to see this!! aaaaaah.
The think that always intrigued me about Willow is that she ended up having the classic mad scientist oversteps their bounds storyline, except with magic instead of science. Not that there are an abundance of songs about mad scientists, but that's always kind of how I've thought of her.
That is a v good point, and something I'd never really thought of! Hmmmm. Shall ponder that and see what I come up with...
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Thank you *g* I really, really want to do at least one vid after this season is over. At this point, though, I'm not sure if that'll be the one? I've got, like, six that I'm letting marinate and I'll see which one feels like the winner at the end of the season. Right now the front-runner is probably a vid about all the Moff companions and their influence on the Doctor set to Taylor Swift's 'State of Grace.'
I originally thought of the Take Me to Church/Spell on You one because I'd been considering a Doctor vid (with a River focus) set to Take Me to Church when season eight was airing and we seemed to be going hard on church imagery (finally--I'd been waiting). And then it was like Missy crashed the party and suddenly I didn't know what the show was about anymore? And was basically watching in a haze for all of season nine so nothing happened. Then my sister shared that medley with me and it was like ANNIE LENNOX CRASHED THE SONG LIKE MISSY CRASHED THE SHOW. HOW SO PERFECT? So I started planning it out and figured it would be a good way to come to terms with what 7/8/9 were doing. Except by the time we'd gotten even a bit into season 10 I realized 1) the vid was now (probably inevitably) about everything. Stupid show
i love you never leave us. And 2) there was no room for Bill in it. Which I would probably regret after the season was over because like hell I'm going to vid a six minute song about all of Moffat Who and leave out the last season.So yeah. Waiting and seeing.
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Anyway, I've been sifting through a lot of songs and I don't think I've really found anything particularly right, but let me run some stuff by you and you can at least tell me what does and doesn't appeal? Put me on the right track? [ETA: Ooff. This ended up being a lot. Certainly don't expect you to respond to all of this, but like I said, let me know if anything is feeling in the right neighborhood and I'll try to focus.]
On the one hand, I suspect it would be desirable to have something with a long, slow build-up? Like Bolero but with lyrics? (Linking to Torvill and Dean because it's not 17 minutes long. Also because the flow of figure skating reminds me of vids).
'Hidden wells of rage' says to me rap or opera or possibly something playing on one of the two mash-up style, like sounds soft and gentle AND THEN SUDDENLY RAP. OR EPIC ANGRY CHURCH CHOIRS. The thing that came to mind is this from The Matrix. I think probably the sound is all wrong, but I love the cuts between driving club music and the soft piano/orchestral stuff and I could see something like that working?
(I was talking with elisi of the appeal of screechy angst vs. bass-y angst. I am solidly in the latter camp and, given that you co-created 'Howl,' which is still my coping mechanism for dealing with season six, I suspect you are as well, but let me know.)
Anyway, my basic argument for considering rap is
I bring up opera because another vid in my marination vat is an epic River vid to Casta Diva from the opera Norma. The lyrics and background of the song are actually incredibly appropriate. (Basically Norma is singing a prayer to Athena to prevent a war because she is in love with one of her people's enemies.) But I didn't actually know that when I decided it would make a good vid: I was just listening to those soaring 'crying' sections and seeing River's face in pain and it was like, yes. Anyway, nothing does raw emotion quite like opera, if you can find the right thing, and there is something deeply operatic about Moffat Who. *ponders* Buffy too. The story logic isn't always there, but there are a lot of idiot people with epic feels.
Sia strikes me as a deeply appropriate singer/songwriter for Clara. All that drive. All that fury. That sharp edge. Somehow impeccably controlled and abandoned at the same time. I love the way Broken Glass just keeps going up. And up. And up. And up. Sadly the lyrics don't really work. And most of her other songs start hard and stay there, so not gonna work if you want a build. Something like Chandelier or Bird Set Free works for late-stage Clara/Willow, but not earlier.
Rihanna (who Sia also writes for) also has a tone sometimes that is tempting? I'm thinking particularly about Russian Roulette, but, again, the problem of build.
Watched You Fall has great build (and I love the sense of spinning). Also I think it is actually meant to be about an addiction? But then it really is about two people in a relationship. I could see it working for Clara/Twelve, but not really for something focused specifically on Clara and Willow themselves. (Apologies for the video--there doesn't seem to be an official one.)
Bottom of the River: I epically adore this song. The build is amazing. The base is amazing. The drive is amazing. The rage is amazing. But I think, essentially, it is a song about external pressures, rather than internal.
Best American girl is amazing in its 'sweet good girl breaks into wells of rage.' But, again, lyrics not really right.
Sometime Around Midnight, improbably, reminds me of an opera aria. The build is amazing. And the sense of rising addiction. I almost feel like the emotion of this is right, but the lyrics are so narratively specific, you'd never make them work.
And lastly a bit of a wild card: Chasing Shadows. I love the way I can't decide if it's cheerful or furious? And the (admittedly exceedingly hard to hear) lyrics are kind of amazing? I love especially 'You are here' it says. Well, at least someone knows where I am.
ETA2: apologies for really unforgivable over-use of the word 'amazing.' I'm pretty tired . . .
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I am pretty sure their routine is two lovers walking up a volcano to throw themselves in...
Also, that's a LOT of songs. Respect.
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That's how I vid too. I have an epic Googledoc where I plonk all my vid ideas, (there's about 100 there at this point) and they sit there - sometimes for years - and then one will rise to the surface and demand to be made.
I would probably regret after the season was over because like hell I'm going to vid a six minute song about all of Moffat Who and leave out the last season.
Ha, I understand this feeling too! I am *such* a completist. I really hate vidding open canon for this reason - things need to have definite boundaries!
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OK, WOW. I really did not expect you to get back to me on this! Certainly not so fast, and with so many recs! Thank you thank you THANK YOU! I haven't had a chance to listen to most of them yet because my evenings have been v busy this week, but I'm going to sit down and go through these tonight and get back to you ASAP. Some of them sound v promising. And yeah 'bass-y angst' is definitely more my thing. Also, 'strummy angst' (The Gilmore-type things). I often find with vidsongs that the *feel* of the music can be even more important than the lyrics. Especially if the lyrics are sufficiently vague/meaningless/easy to re-interpret, then the sound has to *sound* like the show. It's why I made things like 'Devil's Spoke' (my Wash/Zoe Firefly vid) and 'Idiotheque' (Iron Man) and 'Feather Moon' (Only Lovers Left Alive). No idea what any of those songs are actually about, but they sounded like the show/films.
ALSO, I've been thinking more about this vid over the past week, trying to crystallise what it is I really want to express with it. And I've realised, it's this: The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart. That's a quote from 'Memory' by Lois McMaster Bujold. Have you read it? Bujold is AMAAAAAAZING beyond amazing, and has approx. a million fantastically quotable lines, because she's a brilliant writer, but that's one of my very favourites, and one I think about a LOT. The full quote is: 'Some prices are just too high, no matter how much you may want the prize. The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart.' I think that really fits for what Willow and Clara both go through, and eventually come to realise - they both lose something impossibly precious to them, and then briefly lose themselves in trying to get it back.
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100! *shudders* Ok, I feel slightly better about myself now *g*
I really hate vidding open canon for this reason - things need to have definite boundaries!
*nods so much* I don't know if I'm more dreading the end of Moff Who or desperate for it to be over so I don't have to constantly re-adjust to shifting ground!
Also, 'strummy angst' (The Gilmore-type things).
LMAO. Yes, that is solidly a thing. I guess I was thinking more of angry angst.
I often find with vidsongs that the *feel* of the music can be even more important than the lyrics. Especially if the lyrics are sufficiently vague/meaningless/easy to re-interpret, then the sound has to *sound* like the show.
Absolutely.
It's why I made things like 'Devil's Spoke' (my Wash/Zoe Firefly vid) and 'Idiotheque' (Iron Man) and 'Feather Moon' (Only Lovers Left Alive). No idea what any of those songs are actually about, but they sounded like the show/films.
I don't think I've watched any of those. I'll have to go back through your back-catalogue a bit.
ALSO, I've been thinking more about this vid over the past week, trying to crystallise what it is I really want to express with it. And I've realised, it's this: The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart.
Oh, that's lovely. Yes, that makes perfect sense. I don't think I've read anything by that author, no.
*ponders* I'd been trying to think of a song that could fit 'rage,' but if you'd like to go more Gilmore-y, there's always Rhiannon. Mournful, and plenty dark. Very usefully vague. And birds! I've thought of it in connection with Clara before.
ETA: there is quite an unfortunate amount of aimless instrumental dithering towards the end, granted. You'd been a really strong meta framework to sustain it, but somehow I'm guessing you'd not be lacking for ideas.
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ETA: Right so, presuming you don't hate the song, this might just be the most perfect song. *g* U2: Volcano! Youtube and THE LYRICS OMG. <333
Volcano, you don’t wanna, you don’t wanna know.
Volcano
Something in you wants to blow
Volcano
You don’t wanna, you don’t wanna know
You’re on a piece of ground above a volcano
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Jars of Clay: Crazy Times
Lyrics:
You're cold that way
And that's why you say
The things that you say
You can't attract
The things that you lack
You're trying in vain
[Chorus:]
You spiral down
You've broken your crown
You don't feel like a queen
You've seen the proof
But you're still crying wolf
You'll never believe
[Chorus]
You try to climb a broken ladder
Grip the missing rungs
And fall down, down, down
Seems sometime ago you said
This wouldn't last
And now you sit here crying
Beside your bed
You feel left for dead
You kneel in the dark...
It takes more than your saline eyes
To make things right
[Chorus]
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I don't think he had much to do in THoRS? But he's Matt Lucas, so they know he can deliver...
though I LOVE IT and one day I will make a vid about Clara and Willow Rosenberg, and their parallel spirals into addiction and sketchy behaviour and hidden wells of rage and how much I love them both and am scared by my own over-identification with them
I'm with Proton. Do iiiiiit! And I shall search for songs.
Oh yes - I actually meant that the Doctor's *belief* in his companions' essential goodness continues into any version of reality. :)
True. Except when they let him down. ;)
VIENNA TENG <333 I don't understand how all her songs are about DW but they REALLY ARE.
She's a secret fan?
(What I want more than anything, as I think I've told you before, is for someone who isn't me to make me the River/Doctor vid of my heart to 'Eric's Song' but nobody's obliged yet)
You'll just have to make it yourself.
And aaaaah yes I love that KatrinnDepp vid! She is soooo talented.
I know that one off by heart. <3
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Nardole says he came from Darillium. However I have a feeling he spoke with River in the Library when he went to fetch the Diary.
Psssst: http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-05-20/doctor-who-exclusive-steven-moffat-reveals-the-secrets-of-extremis-2
Q: Nardole says he’s followed the Doctor from Darillium on the express orders of his late wife River Song – but how has Nardole come by her diary? […]
Moffat: Short answer: you can always get a book out of a library.
Slightly longer answer: the Tenth Doctor had no choice but leave it there – it was full of incendiary information about his future. But once that future was lived, he’d have to get it back some time. He couldn’t leave all that confidential stuff lying around in a Vashta Nerada-infested library, could he? So one day Nardole got it for him. (Actually, there’s a whole story in my head about this, but not one I’ll ever get to write now. The last time he sees River – it’s terribly sad.)
Of course I want to see that story like burning now, as we probably all do…
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IKR? (Took me all week to create... /o\)
Psssst
Yes I saw, and it's sort of what I draw on, saying that Nardole spoke with River in the Library.
Mostly then Nardole's time line makes my head hurt, if I take that 'Darillium' in this episode into account. Unless Library!River told him to go see Darillium!River...
Of course I want to see that story like burning now, as we probably all do…
I don't. I am very happy with what we got in Name of the Doctor. <3
Your Friendly Neighborhood Consulting Plot-Hole Fixer and Continuity Explainer
(Anonymous) 2017-05-27 02:36 pm (UTC)(link)Mostly then Nardole's time line makes my head hurt
If I may. I had a theory, and now there is no plot hole. Praise me.
It is a Stable Time Loop.
Basically, yes, before leaving for the Library (and many other extended universe things), River told Nardole to follow the Doctor and keep an eye on him. Because, well, even if she doesn’t know what will happen to her, it is natural to assume that a lonely 12 –after so much time with her too- might get up to some bad/reckless shit.
So. Nardole finds the diary on Darillium and takes it with him. Of course, she wouldn’t leave it behind, so that’s weird. But he has promised to find the Doctor which is not always easy. At some point he learns of River’s death too, but he has his orders (Or alternatively, the Doctor told him when he put him back together so he always knew.) He tracks him down to the executioner’s planet, he confronts him etc.
Now, the Doctor remembers Nardole turning up there with the diary. Nardole remembers finding it on Darillum just as he was about to leave.
Conclusion: a few days later, TARDIS lands in the Library about twenty feet from where Ten left the diary and 15 minutes after he left (it’s about River: 12 is very careful, and he can count on the Tardis being unusually precise and obedient. Plus, the timeline must be preserved, so that helps), Nardole goes out and gets it, goes back in again, they take off, the Vashta Nerada aren’t very interested because Nardole is largely a cyborg now and the *whole* thing takes about 20 seconds anyway.
TARDIS lands on Darillium after River has gone but while past!Nardole is still there, the Doctor leaves the diary for him to find, they take off.
And in the present they have the diary safely in the TARDIS. Ta-daa!
The timey-wimey is strong with this one.
I don't. I am very happy with what we got in Name of the Doctor. <3
HEAR, HEAR!
P.S. A week's work should be rewarded. I can post in pieces. Many nice themes here about belief and the like. I have done an official analysis, but there is fic too and it is better, broader, and one can just use small pieces too. Would you like? Only if you do. (If yes, how much? Like I said, it's a weird fic, pieces). Otherwise, I shall only briefly squee about a thing, no problem.
Re: Your Friendly Neighborhood Consulting Plot-Hole Fixer and Continuity Explainer
Thank you. (So. Many. Parallels.) (And I only touched on the major ones, I could have kept going...)
If I may. I had a theory, and now there is no plot hole. Praise me.
Oh you are addressing the wrong plot hole. THIS is the bigger issue. From Doctor Mysterio:
DOCTOR: What have you got?
NARDOLE: The whole story.
DOCTOR: Fact me, baby. It's why I reassembled you.
NARDOLE: No, sir, that's not the reason, is it.
DOCTOR: Oh, just get on with it.
NARDOLE: You cut me out of Hydroflax because you were worried you'd be lonely. And we both know why, don't we. But, oh, look at you, avoiding the subject.
From a Radio Times interview with Moffat:
Mulkern: Confession time. One point in Extremis still puzzles me. Nardole says he’s followed the Doctor from Darillium on the express orders of his late wife River Song – but how has Nardole come by her diary? After River died in the 2008 two-parter Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, David Tennant’s Doctor left her diary behind in the Library.
Moffat: Short answer: you can always get a book out of a library. Slightly longer answer: the Tenth Doctor had no choice but leave it there – it was full of incendiary information about his future. But once that future was lived, he’d have to get it back some time. He couldn’t leave all that confidential stuff lying around in a Vashta Nerada-infested library, could he? So one day Nardole got it for him.
These two go well together, but quite simply do not mesh with Nardole's 'Came here from Darillium' line.
Doylist answer: Moffat added that line so those not well steeped in the history could easily follow. But it can't fit with what's already established.
P.S. A week's work should be rewarded. I can post in pieces. Many nice themes here about belief and the like.
Bless you. And I am sure that you too are relived at a show where a 'religious' episode isn't just watchable, it's enjoyable. Far too often films/TV just misunderstand faith.
Would you like?
I would love a link to a fic, yes, and please feel free to squee about as many things as possible. :)
Re: Your Friendly Neighborhood Consulting Plot-Hole Fixer and Continuity Explainer
(Anonymous) 2017-05-27 06:07 pm (UTC)(link)As his time with River was coming to an end, the Doctor (rightly) grew to worry that he’d be lonely afterwards. Therefore, he “reassembles” him. But then the actual separation happens (Who leaves first? River or the Doctor? Doesn’t make much difference). And you know, he changes his mind. That happens. He’s suddenly like “Nah, I can do this, I can be alone” and impulsively runs away, it’s his M.O. Very stupid? Yes. Possible? Also yes.
I picture a “Hey, you should have your own body, that’s all, what do you think I was thinking, I just help people; now good luck, you do whatever you like, see you around” scenario. Or alternatively a “It… *would* be nice to have you along, but I remembered, I just have to go do… a thing, I’ll be back, time machine”, and he *does* mean it, but you know how these things get with the Doctor: it took him more than a millennium to finally answer that call from the end of The Big Bang. *They* didn’t notice, Nardole wouldn’t have either. But he promised River, so he follows him.
(Or, if you like, how and why did the Doctor end up on that planet anyway? They need another Time Lord. Maybe he’s all set to take Nardole along, but they send him a message, “yo, come to this planet, business time”. And he thinks about it, and this is a very complicated and unpleasant thing obviously, and it’s not something he’d want other people with if he is to do it. So he decides to leave and eventually go alone.)
And then you insert my theory. Or your theory. Or any theory. Or you don’t think about it. This is difficult and needlessly complicated, yes, but it works with what we’ve got. And we’re dealing with a highly Watsonian situation here too: The real reason is that Moffat *somehow* needed to have River unexpectedly and gorgeously lecture the Doctor through her diary in that scene. Therefore, it had to be there, someone had to bring it there and surprise him.
Let your heart be light! Write the meta, don’t concern yourself with the logistics, with such trivialities! That’s why my OCPD is here!
Bless you. And I am sure that you too are relived at a show where a 'religious' episode isn't just watchable, it's enjoyable. Far too often films/TV just misunderstand faith.
Oh, that may very well be included in the squeeing. (I think Capaldi is a Catholic too, isn't he? /random) Although, I have to add: that was *definitely* a reference/dark joke. “It would take too much time”. I mean, irrespective of religious affiliation or whatever, after the Series 9 ordeal, the Doctor probably hears the word and starts having vivid, Vietnam-style flashbacks. Like, “…ehehehehe, uh, no”.
Re: Your Friendly Neighborhood Consulting Plot-Hole Fixer and Continuity Explainer
It's not causing me to lose any sleep, don't worry. But it's just unusually sloppy for Moffat. I expect better. (For RTD I can ignore plot holes the size of Wales, but Moffat is great at the timey-wimey.)
Oh, that may very well be included in the squeeing.
:D The worst is either someone doing something ~religious~ which is trite or dull, or doing something big and angry attacking what they think faith is, but actually attacking something that only exists in their head...
(I think Capaldi is a Catholic too, isn't he? /random)
I don't think I knew that. Nice. :)
Although, I have to add: that was *definitely* a reference/dark joke. “It would take too much time”.
Uh-huh...
Re: Your Friendly Neighborhood Consulting Plot-Hole Fixer and Continuity Explainer
(Anonymous) 2017-05-27 06:36 pm (UTC)(link)I would love a link to a fic
I actually thought of posting it (or excerpts) here if you liked.
In any case, my total inability of providing you with links continues to be a thing. So if you don’t want any posting/are currently too busy for fic/ want to read ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING (it’s the 1st part of a thematic trilogy), tell me, and I’ll just give you titles and brief instructions.
Sorry. Posting here or links *would* be simpler and easier for both of us.
please feel free to squee about as many things as possible.
Well, time constraints, but for now:
1) Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real? :) <3 :)
(My answer to all such cases -in more emotional ones I use Inception too)
2) Parallel/Symbolism/Mirroring/something!...whatever it is: The beginning of the episode initially makes it seem like the Doctor is the one who is going to be executed. Which, yeah, cool, clever, but… ALL the things too, obviously. I’ll leave it to the master, “saving and salvation” and all the other stuff, fuck yeah, you go girl, much clapping, etcetera.
3) Someone send the Vatican a nice Popemobile and the Moff an award for thinking up the word.
4) “Only in darkness are we revealed.” And of course 12 is blind in the entire episode and hiding it, and never let it be said that Moffat is just a sadist (though he totally is.)
5) That. Fucking. Spectacular. Speech! YEEEES! Sorry River, you missed your true calling, archeology’s fine, but you should have become a writer. Oh my God! Six words, and relating to 4), allow me to introduce my favourite trope ever: What You Are in the Dark. And in this case “in extremis” too (flails a bit). You wanna win me over to your fandom? You play this card (or To Be Lawful or Good, the power of love, choices and free will, and all the heroic sacrifice things).
Now, DW was already included in my, let’s say, definitive canon of the above, the fandoms to which you reverently turn and say “Lo, true virtue in adversity”: Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Discworld, Star Trek, Doctor Who.
But they went and made it *explicit*. They made it the *theme*of the episode. They pushed up the moral things and the hardship and the danger and the hopelessness to over 9000, they broke the bloody show, and it was a sublime thing of beatifically beautiful beauty.
Hats off, bitches. Compulsory reading: All the essays on J. R. R Tolkien’s cosmology, Virtuous Paganism, and the Old Norse theory of courage.
Or you know, yes, the interview:
For me the whole point of the story is the Doctor is still the Doctor, even in extremis. Even when he’s not real, even when he’s a simulant on a hard drive and there is no possibility of escape or reward, he holds true to the man he wants to be. Never cruel, never cowardly – and never giving up till he wins.
(much rejoicing, salutes, wild cheering, and Kermit-style flailing)
Re: Your Friendly Neighborhood Consulting Plot-Hole Fixer and Continuity Explainer
Re: Your Friendly Neighborhood Consulting Plot-Hole Fixer and Continuity Explainer
(Anonymous) 2017-06-22 07:11 pm (UTC)(link)(is tremendously dead though)
Re: Your Friendly Neighborhood Consulting Plot-Hole Fixer and Continuity Explainer
Too much Dr Who. Too much RL. Not enough time.
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Ditto ;)
I don't. I am very happy with what we got in Name of the Doctor. <3
Oh yes—I meant <>Nardole's last encounter with River, since I did also dismiss the "Came from Darillium" as a simple reminder of where the scene fit in the overall season plot, not something we had to take literally. (Easier on the brain XD)
Completely unrelated, but I especially picked up the "World Enough and Time" reference you pointed out as BF also used that one with River and the Sixth Doctor, and even named a boxset episode of its own after it. She's just EVERYWHERE this season, pretty much :D
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:D
Oh yes—I meant Nardole's last encounter with River
Oh I see. Yes, that could be interesting. (Although I haven't watch HoRS since it first aired, so my memory of River/Nardole interactions are fuzzy. I'd like to re-watch it though, for Nardole sake. <3)
since I did also dismiss the "Came from Darillium" as a simple reminder of where the scene fit in the overall season plot, not something we had to take literally. (Easier on the brain XD)
Yes, this. Doylist all the way!
Completely unrelated, but I especially picked up the "World Enough and Time" reference you pointed out as BF also used that one with River and the Sixth Doctor, and even named a boxset episode of its own after it. She's just EVERYWHERE this season, pretty much :D
See that somehow reminded me of a line from a song ('My prints all over the smoking gun') but the song itself sadly doesn't really fit. AH WELL. She is everywhere, she doesn't need another song.
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Same here, but I don't think there was very much. Sadly!
See that somehow reminded me of a line from a song ('My prints all over the smoking gun') but the song itself sadly doesn't really fit. AH WELL. She is everywhere, she doesn't need another song.
She's in every song! :D
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Although he's still a clear link back to her. <3
She's in every song! :D
Especially Bond ones...
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Yessss. I just really, really love that—he's very much his own character and awesome in his own right now, and yet he's still that link. He wasn't just a rebound companion to make sure he wasn't alone, he belongs with the Doctor and Bill (and is very much involved with everything that happens around the Vault…).
Especially Bond ones...
BECAUSE BADASS.
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Nobody on Moffat Who is ever just one thing. <3
He wasn't just a rebound companion to make sure he wasn't alone, he belongs with the Doctor and Bill (and is very much involved with everything that happens around the Vault…).
Yes, they're a wonderful trio!
BECAUSE BADASS.
Yes, they just FIT.
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Love them ♥
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Learn more about LiveJournal Ratings in FAQ (https://www.dreamwidth.org/support/faqbrowse?faqid=303).
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Thank you all who had a look/lurked. <3
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Thank you! <3
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Donna is ‘saved’, but her life in the computer is a dream…
Which parallels her final fate in that her body is saved but her character is erased and she lives in a dream in which she can never know what really happened...
(NB I still think that Donna's children disappearing in front of her is one of the most horrific things New Who has ever done.)
Too much knowledge can be dangerous, but it should be put in the context of the fact that the pursuit of knowledge is generally a good thing. The Vault is positioned below a university, and the Doctor has an actual job as a lecturer, as well as tutoring Bill academically. And running around saving the universe does not stop her from having homework. Learning is applauded, and the Doctor generally saves the day by *thinking* his way of of the situation.
Agreed and as I've said before, the reason too much knowledge is dangerous is that knowledge means very little without context. If you don't have the context to absorb and process the knowledge, you're just overwhelmed.
Circling back to the Forgiveness theme… the Doctor in many ways has a confessor already. Not someone who can forgive him, obviously, but someone to confess to.
I sincerely doubt this is a good idea.
I was almost yelling at the screen "DON'T TELL HER ANYTHING" not because I think Missy would 'betray' him in the traditional sense of telling anyone else but because she will use everything he says against him! I'm convinced that the things the Doctor has confessed to her will be linked to her escape and plans. How could she be Missy/the Master otherwise?
As for River and Missy, River flirts with chaos A LOT, so I am sure some major flirting went on, but OTOH Missy is very dangerous and doesn't really care about anyone except herself (and maybe the Doctor) and River does actually care about a few things so I can also see River never getting too close.
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!!! Knew I'd be forgetting TONS!
Which parallels her final fate in that her body is saved but her character is erased and she lives in a dream in which she can never know what really happened...
Thinking about Donna's fate just makes me sad. (Which is of course why I wrote sort of fix it fic)
(NB I still think that Donna's children disappearing in front of her is one of the most horrific things New Who has ever done.)
Moffat is genuinely evil. From an email he sent to RTD about his plans for The Forest of the Dead:
'Just as she's about to leave [CAL's] word, one of her children is clinging to her, because he's got a suspicion that he stops existing every time that his mummy isn't looking - oh, the heartbreak!'
Agreed and as I've said before, the reason too much knowledge is dangerous is that knowledge means very little without context. If you don't have the context to absorb and process the knowledge, you're just overwhelmed.
Sadly, we see examples all around us every day... :(
but because she will use everything he says against him! I'm convinced that the things the Doctor has confessed to her will be linked to her escape and plans. How could she be Missy/the Master otherwise?
THIS. This exactly.
As for River and Missy, River flirts with chaos A LOT, so I am sure some major flirting went on, but OTOH Missy is very dangerous and doesn't really care about anyone except herself (and maybe the Doctor) and River does actually care about a few things so I can also see River never getting too close.
I have a half-written fic where they meet. Well, I started it back before Missy was even a thing, so it features the Master. There is a rather delightful standoff where River is all 'So you think you're special - well, I love him more than you, so there.'
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Same.
Moffat is genuinely evil. From an email he sent to RTD about his plans for The Forest of the Dead:
'Just as she's about to leave [CAL's] word, one of her children is clinging to her, because he's got a suspicion that he stops existing every time that his mummy isn't looking - oh, the heartbreak!'
MOFFFFFFAAAAAT! *shakes fist*
I have a half-written fic where they meet. Well, I started it back before Missy was even a thing, so it features the Master. There is a rather delightful standoff where River is all 'So you think you're special - well, I love him more than you, so there.'
Hahaha, that would be AMAZING.
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IKR? It's so calculating. (But then I do the same in my own writing...)
Hahaha, that would be AMAZING.
Alas I can't seem to find it. But it was fun! :D
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Me at the entire “Forgiveness” section:
Circling back to the Forgiveness theme… the Doctor in many ways has a confessor already. Not someone who can forgive him, obviously, but someone to confess to.
THIS SHIP WILL TAKE ME DOWN WITH THEM
WOMEN IN BOXES(/ATTICS)!!!!! Maybe that weird cockroach episode had a purpose after all….
The way you've laid out the parallels with River's arc made my brain vomit rainbows.
Although I did compile an (undoubtedly incomplete) list of times when dreams/virtual realities/duplicates of our characters have been a feature:
*whistles* Moffat does like this theme. That suits me fine since it is also my crack.
The Vault is positioned below a university, and the Doctor has an actual job as a lecturer, as well as tutoring Bill academically. And running around saving the universe does not stop her from having homework. Learning is applauded, and the Doctor generally saves the day by *thinking* his way of of the situation.
THIS TOO. tbh, this episode just made me more anxious for Bill’s ~defining moment. I couldn’t help but notice that again, she learnt, but the Doctor (and everyone else) were the ones who figured out.
... This meta deserves a better comment. Suffice it to say, this post and season = 💯
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IT IS TOO DELIGHTFUL FOR WORDS!!
Me at the entire “Forgiveness” section:
♥ ♥ ♥
THIS SHIP WILL TAKE ME DOWN WITH THEM
Yeah, it does have that effect... (Mmmmmmm. Enmity of Ages.)
WOMEN IN BOXES(/ATTICS)!!!!! Maybe that weird cockroach episode had a purpose after all….
IT DOES YES. (You saw Proton's post, yes?)
The way you've laid out the parallels with River's arc made my brain vomit rainbows.
I can make everything about River (because it is) but oh, it's just too gorgeous for words. ♥
*whistles* Moffat does like this theme. That suits me fine since it is also my crack.
Yeah, I'm not sure what I'll do once he's gone. D:
THIS TOO. tbh, this episode just made me more anxious for Bill’s ~defining moment. I couldn’t help but notice that again, she learnt, but the Doctor (and everyone else) were the ones who figured out.
Well she has been specifically introduced as a student, rather than an adventurer.
... This meta deserves a better comment. Suffice it to say, this post and season =
Awwww. Twas a fab comment. And you can always come back!!
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I know that feeling!! (So many tabs...)
Sadly, I don’t think my brain will properly function until after my last exam, but this is wonderful.
Thank you! ♥ And yeah, exams do rather get in the way I'm afraid... Hope they all go well.
I loved the episode, and the one following it, and you touch upon so many great points and similarities, connections and parallels to previous episodes. Everything you wrote about forgiveness really got to me!
I had high hopes, and was not disappointed - quite the opposite! Am somewhat amazed that I actually somehow managed to create a post.
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