elisi: (Spike DD by ruuger (NOT sharable!))
[personal profile] elisi
Serendipity is a funny thing...

This whole Joss mess has come along exactly as I decided to finally delve back into the AtS 'verse and finish a WIP I abandoned years ago. (As it happens, it's the only fic I've ever properly planned out, so I found my extensive notes and actually know where the story is going!)

Now, before beginning to write I figured I should probably watch a few episodes, just to make sure I had their voices right in my head; so I watched A Hole in the World and Shells. And it's a fascinating exercise in doublethink (doubleview?).

Like, I love the 'verse. I love the characters. I love the story. I will always be grateful to Joss & co for creating this world.

But there is also the fact that (the very very special) Fred has SIX men standing around her bedside. All of them going to go out and try to SAVE her. (See subject line...)

As you know, the only other women (still standing) in the extended cast are Harmony (who is delightful, but mostly comic relief) and Eve, who is very powerful yet lost all agency the second she lost her boyfriend. ETA: Oh and there's Nina too. I like Nina. It's sad her role never extends beyond Being The Girlfriend.

The interesting thing is that the same week my girls decided to watch [the new movie version of] Les Mis.

And it was exactly the same thing:

- Men make things happen.

- Women have things happen to them.

This is why Buffy (and Wonder Woman, Rey, et al) are so special. They make things happen.

(Possibly more musings later, but this is a pretty well-trodden path, and I'm preaching to the choir...)


Also I'm realising this is probably a pretty awful way to try to get people to read my 'Spike & Angel & Illyria go on an epic quest to undo the power of W&H' story, as it's rather male-centric. AH WELL. It's not like LJ is teeming with people reading AtS fic anymore. Although I should probably point out that there's a good deal of Buffy & her Slayer army in it too...

For those who want to try (and the lovely handful which read the first few chapters back in 2013 when I started posting and might want to have another look), you can find the fic here (well, the first 7 chapters):

Divided Destiny

More chapters coming soon! :D (*crickets*)

(no subject)

Date: 27 August 2017 05:56 pm (UTC)
greensword: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greensword
There were so many good suffering!Wesley scenes! The episode when Faith tortures him! The whole arc with him trying to save Connor and fucking everything up! His relationship with Lilah (until she got fridged too)! That time he shot a robot he thought was his dad!

Come on, AtS writers you are more creative than fridging.

(no subject)

Date: 27 August 2017 06:23 pm (UTC)
greensword: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greensword
They should have taken a leaf out of Moffat's book. By all means kill the girl & make the fella suffer. Only then make her immortal & give her a girlfriend. ;)

Oh man I liked everything about that arc except the 'make the fella suffer' part. 5 billion years is a lot of manpain.

(no subject)

Date: 27 August 2017 07:13 pm (UTC)
greensword: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greensword
Yeah, I can maybe see that. TBH I don't think very much about Nu Who, something about the style of plotting makes it really difficult for me to remember what happened. Like, I had forgotten that they ended up on Gallifrey at all in the episode, although now you mention it of course they did. Also I'm still not sure about whether or not the Doctor actually destroyed Gallifrey or knew he destroyed it given the rewrite of Day of the Doctor. And wasn't there some point where he was looking for Gallifrey and couldn't find it? Was that before or after they gave him a new set of regenerations?

Someday somebody's going to give Moffat a show where he can tell similar stories over and over again with subtle metaphorical variations each time and viewers won't have to try to fit everything in to one universe and one storyline and it will be beautiful.
Edited Date: 27 August 2017 07:13 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 28 August 2017 04:14 pm (UTC)
greensword: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greensword
But would the Gallifreyans have been torture-you-for-5-billion-years mad if he didn't destroy it?

You don't have to answer that, like I said I've given up on making all the pieces of Nu Who connect together consistently. I sit back and enjoy the poetry now.

(no subject)

Date: 28 August 2017 04:27 pm (UTC)
greensword: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greensword
I mean, sure they put him in the confession dial to get information initially but when it didn't work the first time they chose to leave him in there fo 5 billion years. The dial was designed to run exactly the same way each time, why would they have expected him to divulge the secret after the first, oh, thousand years? And did they wait for it the whole time or did they skip ahead to the future? If they did skip ahead to the future who guarded the dial for 5 billion years? Were the stars in the dial really the stars in the place the dial was kept and, if so, was there never an avalanche or a roof or even a cloudy night above it?

Generally speaking, I like when stories fit together consistently, so if I'm missing things that would make things make sense I'd be glad to hear them. I've only watched most of Moffat Who once through (with the exception of season 5, which I loved) so it's entirely possible I'm forgetting things that make it work.
Edited Date: 28 August 2017 04:28 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 28 August 2017 04:43 pm (UTC)
greensword: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greensword
Okay, so the dial itself is some sort of wibbly-wobbly thing that allows the Doctor to subjectively experience 5 billion years while only a bit of time passes outside? And there's actually no way for anyone outside to get to the Doctor or see how long he's been in there or otherwise influence things - it's all on him to confess or find some other way out? That... mostly works for me.

I think what's confusing about that is: (a) the movement of the stars, which seems to strongly tie passage of time inside the dial to outside it and (b) when he gets out on Gallifrey isn't it close to the end of the universe? Or am I misremembering that and conflating it with the scene with Ashildr?

(no subject)

Date: 28 August 2017 10:37 pm (UTC)
greensword: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greensword
That's just the internal workings of the dial, I'd say. It resets, but not completely. F.ex. Clara portrait was painted by the Doctor.

TBH I'm still a little confused about how internal variation works, it seems like if he changed things up even a little bit he wouldn't have been able to, at the very end of each cycle, get back to the room to power the thing. (That's vague, but I think you'll get what I mean.) Unless that's all for show and it would have reset anyway. Although if variations are allowed, and the dial resets everything, (a) why were the versions we saw so incredibly similar, (b) why do some things reset but not others (portrait, stars) and (c) why make it *seem* like it had to be exactly the same each time if it's only going to confuse audience members?
Edited Date: 28 August 2017 10:38 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 30 August 2017 02:51 pm (UTC)
greensword: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greensword
But why does he go power the thing if he's figured it out? Presumably the dial will reset anyway even if he doesn't, and he could use that time to leave himself better clues? Or is he reseting the dial himself - it's not a naturally occurring thing - and he really would just die if he didn't?

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] greensword - Date: 31 August 2017 02:36 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] greensword - Date: 1 September 2017 01:45 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 27 August 2017 07:19 pm (UTC)
sueworld: Heart (Default)
From: [personal profile] sueworld
"They should have taken a leaf out of Moffat's book. By all means kill the girl & make the fella suffer. Only then make her immortal & give her a girlfriend. ;)"

Oh god, sorry, but I thought that was such a wuss out. It's like Moffat always wants his characters to play with fire, but can't leave them permanently burnt.

(no subject)

Date: 28 August 2017 10:45 pm (UTC)
greensword: (i came out to have a good time)
From: [personal profile] greensword
On the one hand, yes it's a children's show, on the other hand it's not like they've never killed off a companion before. They've even had companions experience Donna's fate before, although they didn't experience the personal betrayal of the Doctor doing it to them against their wishes.

Regardless, I think my favorite moment in the entirety of Clara's run (maybe the entirety of Moffat's run) was the moment Clara eloquently tells the Doctor off for trying to Donna her. Catharsis!

(Although wtf happens after that makes very little sense to me. Up for helping me understand that part too?)
Edited Date: 28 August 2017 10:53 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 30 August 2017 02:45 pm (UTC)
greensword: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greensword
Very true. But there is a line to walk between making everything too safe, and killing off the viewer identification character.

That's a solid point, that the companions were less central to the show before and people probably didn't identify with them as much.

re: Clara - But why was she willing to lose her memories? She gave a big speech about how important they were to her, and then accepted a 50% chance of losing them? I thought it would have made a lot more sense if she'd just said, look, if this is so important to you, why don't you get rid of your memories of me? Or even: Look, you've got hundreds of years of memories of adventures in space and time, this is all I've got, it's far easier for you to lose your memories of me so don't ask it of me. Or: maybe while you're deleting me you can delete the 5 billion years in the torture dial.

As it was, I though it undercut the previous moment, and totally distracted me while the Doctor was losing his memories. I'm sure it was supposed to be poignant and sad and I was just like, "??????".

(no subject)

Date: 31 August 2017 02:39 pm (UTC)
greensword: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greensword
It definitely takes a bit out of the scene for me, and I wish they'd just had the Doctor zap himself, but *shrugs* it's a show with 36 seasons not every moment of every ep is going to work for me.

(no subject)

Date: 1 September 2017 01:46 am (UTC)
greensword: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greensword
<3 I think I've posted like 30 comments on this entry. Thanks for humoring me with explanations, I do feel like I understand the episode quite a bit better now, even if I'm not fully satisfied.

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