elisi: (Spike DD by ruuger (NOT sharable!))
[personal profile] elisi
Serendipity is a funny thing...

This whole Joss mess has come along exactly as I decided to finally delve back into the AtS 'verse and finish a WIP I abandoned years ago. (As it happens, it's the only fic I've ever properly planned out, so I found my extensive notes and actually know where the story is going!)

Now, before beginning to write I figured I should probably watch a few episodes, just to make sure I had their voices right in my head; so I watched A Hole in the World and Shells. And it's a fascinating exercise in doublethink (doubleview?).

Like, I love the 'verse. I love the characters. I love the story. I will always be grateful to Joss & co for creating this world.

But there is also the fact that (the very very special) Fred has SIX men standing around her bedside. All of them going to go out and try to SAVE her. (See subject line...)

As you know, the only other women (still standing) in the extended cast are Harmony (who is delightful, but mostly comic relief) and Eve, who is very powerful yet lost all agency the second she lost her boyfriend. ETA: Oh and there's Nina too. I like Nina. It's sad her role never extends beyond Being The Girlfriend.

The interesting thing is that the same week my girls decided to watch [the new movie version of] Les Mis.

And it was exactly the same thing:

- Men make things happen.

- Women have things happen to them.

This is why Buffy (and Wonder Woman, Rey, et al) are so special. They make things happen.

(Possibly more musings later, but this is a pretty well-trodden path, and I'm preaching to the choir...)


Also I'm realising this is probably a pretty awful way to try to get people to read my 'Spike & Angel & Illyria go on an epic quest to undo the power of W&H' story, as it's rather male-centric. AH WELL. It's not like LJ is teeming with people reading AtS fic anymore. Although I should probably point out that there's a good deal of Buffy & her Slayer army in it too...

For those who want to try (and the lovely handful which read the first few chapters back in 2013 when I started posting and might want to have another look), you can find the fic here (well, the first 7 chapters):

Divided Destiny

More chapters coming soon! :D (*crickets*)

(no subject)

Date: 27 August 2017 10:28 am (UTC)
promethia_tenk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] promethia_tenk
Oh AtS . . . you had some greatness about you, but truly some of the most appalling treatment of women I've ever seen on tv.

(no subject)

Date: 27 August 2017 11:26 am (UTC)
owlboy: (Default)
From: [personal profile] owlboy
I remember nasty stuff about Joss's real-life treatment of Charisma Carpenter coming out when AtS was airing as well. I can't get into any of the dude's stuff anymore

(no subject)

Date: 27 August 2017 11:56 am (UTC)
owlboy: (Default)
From: [personal profile] owlboy
Yeah. dude sounds like he has a bottomless capacity for spite

(no subject)

Date: 27 August 2017 05:54 pm (UTC)
promethia_tenk: (dollhouse)
From: [personal profile] promethia_tenk
I remember nasty stuff about Joss's real-life treatment of Charisma Carpenter coming out when AtS was airing as well. I can't get into any of the dude's stuff anymore
Yeah, I heard some about that. Well after the fact, of course.

I don't have much to say on any of this. Dollhouse is my favorite thing he's ever done by a long shot, so I've no great investment in thinking of the guy as not horrible. I feel cruddy for the people who really loved Buffy, though.

(no subject)

Date: 27 August 2017 02:55 pm (UTC)
orangerful: (Default)
From: [personal profile] orangerful
Just because it is "male-centric" doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it. Now, if you posted "I am only writing male centric stories because men are better' THEN that would be wrong. You just connected with a story you wanted to tell and told it.

It's sad that so many writers do have to make that conscious effort and then have to make the effort to write female characters that take action as much as men. :\

(no subject)

Date: 27 August 2017 03:10 pm (UTC)
orangerful: (Default)
From: [personal profile] orangerful
Well, I was just referring to your story, since you made it sound like you were upset that it was male-centric. :) I am going to assume you don't bump off a lot of ladies! :)

I have many thoughts on the recent Whedon stuff but I can't quite form them into words yet...I was caught off guard when a friend asked me about it yesterday because I am THE Whedon fan...this is why I don't get tattoos.

(no subject)

Date: 27 August 2017 07:15 pm (UTC)
sueworld: Heart (Default)
From: [personal profile] sueworld
"That's it. Except when the wimmins keep dying, it makes you wonder... '

Well that doesn't seem to effect Supernaturals ratings. *g*

(no subject)

Date: 28 August 2017 09:28 am (UTC)
sueworld: Heart (Default)
From: [personal profile] sueworld
Well for me personally I've never seen the appeal of either of them, either visually or when it comes to their acting. In fact It's one of the greatest mysteries of the universe for me as to how this show as managed survive for so long. *g*

(no subject)

Date: 27 August 2017 04:52 pm (UTC)
greensword: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greensword
When I think about how good the gender politics of a show are likely to be before watching it, I usually ask a set of questions something like:

- Is the main character a woman?
- Is the main relationship or one of the main relationships between two women?
- Do women make up more than 50% of the characters?

The answer to all of the questions doesn't have to be yes but if none of them are I tend to skip it. This is based in part on shows like Angel. I found Angel especially disappointing not because it was especially terrible - I mean yes, it was full of sexist tropes, but a lot of shows are, and it had good parts too - but because it spun out of Buffy which was its opposite in so many ways. To the extent that A Hole in the World has a BtVS equivalent it's probably Tara's death in Seeing Red and while it was fucked up in its own way (stop killing queer characters!) there was so much more to the characters' responses, they were so differentiated, like I still get chills thinking about how Dawn sat with Tara's body for hours because she didn't want her to be alone. And Willow sought vengeance and Buffy sought justice and Xander felt helpless and Anya put aside her own anger and alienation to come help them and I don't know, there's just a richness to it that Angel always seemed to lack.

I also found it telling that the Illyria plot twist was written to showcase Amy Acker's range. Like, maybe try writing a bigger range of emotions and behavior for your female characters rather than having them killed and their bodies possessed by entirely different characters.

Anyway, I'll stop using your post as an excuse to rag on Angel. ;)

(no subject)

Date: 27 August 2017 05:37 pm (UTC)
greensword: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greensword
Yeah, I don't think Tara's death is a great comparison, it's just the closest that BtVS has. But maybe it's still too different to be a helpful contrast. And yeah, I don't remember any sort of meta-commentary on Fred's death that might have made the circumstances more palatable. I'm generally for stories that point out the problems with certain narratives by depicting them and then twisting them, but I'm not remembering AtS as having done that.

I love Angel to tiny itty bitty pieces (see picking up a stupidly long WIP), but I am well aware of its many flaws.

We all have our shows like that. :)

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] greensword - Date: 27 August 2017 05:54 pm (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 27 August 2017 05:41 pm (UTC)
greensword: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greensword
ETA: I love Wesley, and how utterly messed up he is. But Fred's death (having just watched it) is milked for all it's worth. Watch the beautiful, brave woman die, horribly and in pain.

Wesley is my favorite character on the show and I found his scenes with Illyria compelling, but I don't think they were worth it. Like, the show proved that there were many other interesting ways to make him suffer that didn't involve killing off his love interests.

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Date: 28 August 2017 04:35 am (UTC)
jerusha: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jerusha
Oh, god. Fred...

What killed me about that whole storyline is that they didn't just kill Fred, they literally destroyed her soul. FOR MAN PAIN. I loved Buffy and Angel, I really did, but S5 of Ats was just incredibly problematic in how it dealt with the female characters.

Here from the Sunnydale Herald

Date: 29 August 2017 01:25 am (UTC)
punch_kicker15: (Fred)
From: [personal profile] punch_kicker15
But there is also the fact that (the very very special) Fred has SIX men standing around her bedside. All of them going to go out and try to SAVE her.

Ha, I had exactly the same thought when I rewatched those episodes as background for a fic I wrote a few years ago (it was an AU with the focus on a couple of women saving Fred, so I can't say that I did much better by Fred than canon did, at least in that story.) I realized that's why Buffy (the show) resonates so much more with me than Angel (the show).

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